Pope' s Speech Stirs Muslim Anger

Originally posted by Alliance

I think Jesus Christ brought nothing but war to the world. Thank God that Muhammed came to clean us of his sin.

Ok let me see if I can understand this. Jesus fed the poor and healed the sick, he was with somebody who struck of a Roman's ear and he healed the Romans ear. He preached things like turn the over cheek and he brought nothing but war? 😕 Are you sure you're not refering to Paul, because even the followers of Jesus used to fall out with Paul and he came out with alot of stuff that Jesus did not say. Anyway on the other hand lil bitchness has shown you some of thing that Mohammed has done in the hadith......and you're saying Thank God Mohammed came to clean us of his sin?

I dont remember Jesus raping anyone or killing anyone...thats the difference.

Originally posted by Alliance

We're tired of your Holy Crusade against Islam. Get your armies out of Islamic nations, stop assasinating our leaders and let Israel spread its reign of terror accross our lands.

Look Christainity is not perfect either. Even before the Crusades Islam justifies invading other people countries and smashing of idols and other atrocities, who are you going to blame then? It goes both ways both Christians and Muslims are too blame, but just because Christians have done wrong does not justify another wrong. What scares me is this if an Islamic state was set up somewhere in the world looking at Islams history why wouldnt they try to conquer the world? Yeah I know the West does it as well but I would rather live in the UK than Afghanistan, have you seen how the Taliban treat women? Have you seen them blowing up buddhist statues, and you want people like that to create a nation?

Originally posted by Alliance

The Pope's comments are a culmination of a general attitude: fear of the west. Its not just a simple crticism, it shows the underlying bigotry in the people who have been raping the Middle Wast for decades. Its time for you to leave.

*shakes his head* Look im not saying thats right either....it goes both ways. My problem is this eventhough I think some foreign policy is wrong if an islamic state is started up somewhere I dont see why they wouldnt try and conquer the West. Conquering countries is part of Islamic tradition and history. I have also read the speech what he said was taken out of context, for the love of God he goes on further to quote an Islamic scholar to say good things about Islam. Even if he had not said that they would have probably found something else.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Now please, do me a favoure and point at controdictions in Qur'an, and also tell me where did you get exact numbers of "beheaded" people and try reading hystory books yourself. I don't want to break your "many Qur'anic quotes about violence and killing" theory but in all quotes where mentioned "killing" or "violance" it said about "fighting back" and killing if someone tries to kill you or your relatives. Bah, what's the point of talking to someone who believes that She is is the only person that understands Qur'an correctly and millions of people misinterpreted it "peaceful muslims are not practicing true Islam", "praising Hitler"🙄 All this speaks for itself, i don't know who made you a religion forum mod but it clearly was a mistake, try learning more about Islam and read Qur'an and not Wikipedia this time, please.

SAM!!!!!!! I asked you wether it was right for Abraham to destroy property that did not belong to him (the idols). What did you say? You said Abraham was saving them from hell fire, so it was ok. So basically what you're telling me is that its ok for a muslim to go into a non-muslim temple and destroy property that does not belong to him. Are you trying to tell me you cant see why people get annoyed with Islam?

I'm still waiting for you to point me at controdictions and to give quotes from Qur'an about violance and killing where it is not said about "fighting back" or holly war (that is spreading religion). Speaking of "embarrassing", you are the one who claims that millions of muslims among whom there are people that stuidied hystory their whole lifes are ignorant and they ALL misunderstood Qur'an but you are the only person that got it correctly. Qur'an is a book of Islam. Qur'an doesn't approve violance. Islam is not violant. Plain and simple. Otherwise (if you want to judge by small group of criminals about religion) I can prove that Bhudism is violant, that Christianity is violant etc.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I'm still waiting for you to point me at controdictions and to give quotes from Qur'an about violance and killing where it is not said about "fighting back" or holly war (that is spreading religion). Speaking of "embarrassing", you are the one who claims that millions of muslims among whom there are people that stuidied hystory their whole lifes are ignorant and they ALL misunderstood Qur'an but you are the only person that got it correctly. Qur'an is a book of Islam. Qur'an doesn't approve violance. Islam is not violant. Plain and simple. Otherwise (if you want to judge by small group of criminals about religion) I can prove that Bhudism is violant, that Christianity is violant etc.

Answer the question, please!!!!!!!!!! The Quran says that Abraham went into a temple and destroyed public property, is this ok? Yes this is also a contradiction because the Quran says dont steal. Destroying property that does not belong to you is worse.

Originally posted by Alliance
I wasn't aware that I was involved in any riots 😕.

I think Jesus Christ brought nothing but war to the world. Thank God that Muhammed came to clean us of his sin.

We're tired of your Holy Crusade against Islam. Get your armies out of Islamic nations, stop assasinating our leaders and let Israel spread its reign of terror accross our lands.

The Pope's comments are a culmination of a general attitude: fear of the west. Its not just a simple crticism, it shows the underlying bigotry in the people who have been raping the Middle Wast for decades. Its time for you to leave.

Seriously dude.

Muhammad has killed of the whole tribes(there were 3 at the time) of Jews in North Arabia.

How can you possibly compare Jesus to Muhammad? Muhammad was a murderous 7th century warlord.
Jesus was a teacher.

Muhammad had killed between 600 and 900 Jews in one go. They all belonged to the tribe of Banu Qurayza!!!

Ibn Ishaq describes the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:

Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off.

The spoils of battle, including the enslaved women and children of the tribe, were divided up among Muhammad's followers, with Muhammad himself receiving a fifth of the value (as khums, to be used for the public good). Some of these were sold soon after to raise funds for jihad.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

Why won't people make an effort to learn about something they want to defend?

As for crusaides -

The reason Crusaides happened to begin with, is because Muslims, in their conquest and war, occupied Christian holy land of Jerusalem. But that is not what the sparked the Crusaides. What sparked the crusaides is when the Christian pilgrems and peoples safety to practice their religion, in THEIR holy land was takena way from them.

Western Christians thus acted not only as the re-concurers of the land which was once theirs, but also the protectors of their land and people who worshipped on it.

Hence the crusaides.
Also, what were Muslims doing occupying Christian and Jewsih holy lands? What would you say if Christians occupied Mecca and started killing Muslims for worshiping there?!

Crusaides are the ones which, eventually freed Europe from Muslim invasion. Crusaides were supposed to push Islamists back.

Muslims invaded Europe, Persia and North Africa, the whole cities were masscred and populations were taken to slavery.
Arab wave of Jihad and Turkish wave of Jihad.

And after we have covered this area of history and violence, we shall turn to the Holocust in Inida

During these seven hundred years of Muslim invasions and their conquest and rule of India, the Hindus were the greatest sufferers. It is difficult to estimate the number of Hindus who lost their lives during these campaigns, the number of Hindus who lost their lives in the religious persecution perpetrated on the native population by the Muslim rulers or the number of Hindus who were forcibly converted to Islam.

According to Prof. K.S. Lal, the author of the Growth of Muslim population in India, the Hindu population decreased by 80 million between 1000 AD, the year Mahmud Ghazni invaded India and 1525 AD, a year before the battle of Panipat.

One can safely add another 20 million Hindus to this list to account for the number that were killed during the Mughal rule or the rule of the Muslim rulers in the Deccan plateau. By all known accounts of world history, as pointed out by Koenard Elst in his book the Negationism in India, destruction of about 100 million hindus is perhaps the biggest holocaust in the whole world history.

So don't paint Christians a colour their aint. Muslim history is so bloody, that it puts Christian history to shame.

But seriously, google the gencide of Armania, the holocaust in India and the mass murder of Jews and Christians in Iraq.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Answer the question, please!!!!!!!!!! The Quran says that Abraham went into a temple and destroyed public property, is this ok? Yes this is also a contradiction because the Quran says dont steal. Destroying property that does not belong to you is worse.

That post above wasn't for you.
It was for people that prefere to judge about religion by Wikipedia instead of reading Qur'an, Bible etc.
Here.

Originally posted by Alfheim
SAM!!!!!!! I asked you wether it was right for Abraham to destroy property that did not belong to him (the idols). What did you say? You said Abraham was saving them from hell fire, so it was ok. So basically what you're telling me is that its ok for a muslim to go into a non-muslim temple and destroy property that does not belong to him. Are you trying to tell me you cant see why people get annoyed with Islam?

You actually asked me "Why Qur'an doesn't criticise Abraham" and not if it was right or wrong. What i said was "So you think that Islam is violant because Qur'an didn't criticised Abraham's actions?" Since that was a topic of our discussion. "Is Islam violant?" And it's certanly doesn't mean that muslim can go around destroying everything that doesn't belongs to him. Because Qur'an doesn't teaches that way. And the reason why people got annoyed with Islam is because Media made Islam a synonym of terrorism, and because of sites where it's said that terrorists that bombed World trade center are "good" muslims. Remember that site? I think i already told you why it is bs.

Originally posted by Sam Z
That post above wasn't for you, here.

You actually asked me "Why Qur'an doesn't criticise Abraham" and not if it was right or wrong. What i said was "So you think that Islam is violant because Qur'an didn't criticised Abraham's actions?" And it's certanly doesn't mean that muslim can go around destroying everything that doesn't belongs to him. Because Qur'an doesn't teaches that way. And the reason why people got annoyed with Islam is because Media made Islam a synonym of terrorism, and because of sites where it's said that terrorists that bombed World trade center are "good" muslims. Remember that site? I think i already told you why it is bs.

Thats all fine and dandy but you still have not answered my question. Is it ok for you to go into a temple and destroy idols because the Quran says its ok.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats all fine and dandy but you still have not answered my question. Is it ok for you to go into a temple and destroy idols because the Quran says its ok.

The thing is that Qur'an doesn't says it's ok. "Not criticising" and "approving" are not the same things. I can't answer your question because there is controdiction. Ask me "Is it fine to destroy property of other people?" I'll answer - no. Ask me "Does Qur'an says it's ok?" - No. Ask me "Did Qur'an criticised Abraham for that?" - No. "Does it mean Islam is a violant religion?" - No. Does this answer your questions?

Originally posted by Sam Z
The thing is that Qur'an doesn't says it's ok. "Not criticising" and "approving" are not the same things. I can't answer your question because there is controdiction. Ask me "Is it fine to destroy property of other people?" I'll answer - no. Ask me "Does Qur'an says it's ok?" - No. Ask me "Did Qur'an criticised Abraham for that?" - No. "Does it mean Islam is a violant religion?" - No. Does this answer your questions?

As far as I know it does but I may have to verify this to be absolutely certain.

Yes I have checked it. Abraham did smash the idols and the Quran justifies it because the whole point of the passage was to say that idolatry according to the Quran is stupid. If it were wrong the Quran would have said something.

👆 I was about to post regarding that.

And also, In the Qur'an (chapter 3, verse 28 and capter 16, verse 106) It clearly says that if one is under pressure, once is allowed to LIE in order to protect the religion.

Thus muslims can lie (Islam is a religion of peace) in order to protect the religion. The Qur'an says so!

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
👆 I was about to post regarding that.

And also, In the Qur'an (chapter 3, verse 28 and capter 16, verse 106) It clearly says that if one is under pressure, once is allowed to LIE in order to protect the religion.

Thus muslims can lie (Islam is a religion of peace) in order to protect the religion. The Qur'an says so!

Ermm I think that refers to when a muslim is being tortured...... 😮

Robert Spencer quotes Muhammad saying that one can brake an oath if he finds something different which is better, or one can lie (to kill the enemies, or to keep the ''peace'' between muslims. ie, one muslim may lie to the other in such case) if such needs to be done.

He also cites that protecting the religion through lying is alright, as long as one doesnt REALLY believe it.
Thats the 16.106 ✅

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Please people, READ what I write next, and pay CLOSE attention. Short lecture on history of Islam -

What a lot of westerners do not understand is that the Qur'an, does not have an equal in the western civilisation. The way Qur'an is seen by Muslims, nothing in the west has its parallel. Bible is WAY off.

Qur'an is believed by Muslims and Islamic theologies, to have been dictated WORD for WORD by Alah himself, through Angel Gabriel to Muhammad.

The problem is that now, every word of the Qur'an, every single one, unless it is canceled by another section (which would mean, there are no contradictions in the Qur'an) is valid for all time and it cannot be questioned, reformed or changed.

This means that moderate muslims, if they are sincere, they have to reject entirely Qur'anic literalism, BUT to do this, it puts them outside of the sphere of orthodox, or TRUE Islam throughout history.

Because to do so, it is to reject the very basic core of Islam, that this is a book dictated by God, the perfect copy of a perfect book, the [b] Umm al-kitab (The mother of the book) that has existed forever with Allah in Heaven. Forever.
Every word of this book is the word of the God.

Thus, going back to my many Qur'anic quotes about violence and killing of the Infidels, would mean that those are the exact, untranslatable, words of god, which are to be carried out.

NOW PAY ATTENTION -

Therefore, people who are killing in the name of Allah, infidels and Jews, are practicing the true Islam. The Islam which Prophet Muhammad practiced himself.

Muhammad beheaded between 600 and 800 men, himself, personally. That is not counting tribes he sacked and expelled and the killings he ordered to be done.

Now, Muhammad is considered the al-insan al-kamil, which means ''The Perfect Man''.
He is the model, to be imitated.
He is the person, the more Muslim is like him, the better off he is.
He is revealed as the example to be followed by all Muslims.

Therefore, taking all this BACK to the Pope comment - what the Emperor in Pope's quote said was TRUE.

Anything which is peaceful in the Quran is not NEW. Muhammad lived with Jewish and Christian tribes, and thus while he has, the verses in the Quran are identical to those in the Bible.
What Muhammad brought that was new are the sword spread religion, and religious dominance through government.

Technically thus, the Byzantine emperor was absolutely correct.

Furthermore, if you would like to check what I have said, please read the Qur'an, the Haidths (because you cannot understand Qur'an without reading the Hadiths), Islamic tradition, Islamic theology and Islamic history.

I promise you, you will be all that wiser. [/B]

I understand, but for every Muslim crime, you can find a Christian crime thoughout history and even today, that CAN be backed up by Biblical text as well....

"Thus muslims can lie" doh
If you read Qur'an you'd see that in previous verse (105) it's clearly said that telling lies is a sin. In surah 63(1 and 2) it's also clearly said that liars are sinners.
16.106 Says that if you decline Allah because you are FORCED to (tortured for example) but in you heart you still believe and worship Allah it is not a sin, but if you really decline Allah and you stopped believeing because someone forced you it is a great sin. This all only proves my point and proves that Allah is merciful.
As for idolatry it is not stupid but simply a sin in Islam and that's the point of passage. Not criticising Abraham doesn't mean that Qur'an says "it's ok". I pretty much answered the question and don't even understand why you brought idolatry, it's just another sin in Islam.
Surrah 2.112 It's said that the one who believes in Allah and does Good things will be rewarded.
Surah 24.20 It's said that Allah is merciful to people
Surah 99.7 It's said that the best are those people who believe and do Good.
Surrah 58.4 Is about charity. And it's said that it is the way of believeing in Allah.
About Zakat(charity) in surah 9.60
27.89 It's said that who does good it would be better to him.
27.90 Who acts evil will go to hell.

Basic things muslim must do and the most important things in Islam
1) To believe that there is no God except Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet.
2) To pray 5 times a day.
3) Zakat - charity
4) To fast during ramadan.
5) And to go to Caaba at least once in life. (If you are ill or poor or for some other reason can't go there then it is not a sin)
This is what children are taught about and that is what every muslim knows, so now tell me how is Islam i violant religion? Does this list above seem violant to you? Or may be you'll just try to give me quotes where violance is approved unless it is a selfdefence or when it's said about Holy War and where word "fighting" must not be taken literally? Please I'm all ears. But no need for frases like "Muslims prasie Hitler" or "call Jews names" because it is not true and in case of Jews that is the least thing one would do for taking away their land and killing relatives. Take the origin of the religion ( and it's origin is written above) and tell me, does it seem violant to you?

Ps. Sorry that i haven't quoted Qur'an and just said what is written in it, it's because it's a hard for me to translate everything correctly and I don't use Wikipedia as my source unlike others.
My regards to Robert Spencer.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok let me see if I can understand this. Jesus fed the poor and healed the sick, he was with somebody who struck of a Roman's ear and he healed the Romans ear. He preached things like turn the over cheek and he brought nothing but war? 😕 Are you sure you're not refering to Paul, because even the followers of Jesus used to fall out with Paul and he came out with alot of stuff that Jesus did not say. Anyway on the other hand lil bitchness has shown you some of thing that Mohammed has done in the hadith......and you're saying Thank God Mohammed came to clean us of his sin?

I dont remember Jesus raping anyone or killing anyone...thats the difference.

I was making an overzealous statement to piss of the "all Muslims should be deported from America" bigot, markie.

Jesus is also a fictional character. While it may have been based on a real man, there is no other historical record of his existence. Muhammad was a real man. I doubt the authors of the Bible chose to include any sort of negative things about him.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Look Christainity is not perfect either. Even before the Crusades Islam justifies invading other people countries and smashing of idols and other atrocities, who are you going to blame then? It goes both ways both Christians and Muslims are too blame, but just because Christians have done wrong does not justify another wrong. What scares me is this if an Islamic state was set up somewhere in the world looking at Islams history why wouldnt they try to conquer the world? Yeah I know the West does it as well but I would rather live in the UK than Afghanistan, have you seen how the Taliban treat women? Have you seen them blowing up buddhist statues, and you want people like that to create a nation?

EVERY nation that has the power to invade has invaded other nations. This is not a sole characteristic of Islamic nations or nations that are majority Islam. Governments like the Taliban do not represent Islam. And fyi, i was part of the UN project to remove and preserve those statues for the Taliban.

If the west would stop assassinating leaders and instilling crappy dictators in the Middles east, maybe real governments could form? I doubt the world is interested in that though, they seem more concerned with raping the oil out of the ground to actually pursue any policy that would help the government. They'd rather starve the Palestinians than try to make peace with an elected government.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Western Christians thus acted not only as the re-concurers of the land which was once theirs, but also the protectors of their land and people who worshipped on it.

^^This is bullshit. When Islam conquered and reconquered the lands, they allowed Christians and Jews to stay and worship as they wish. When the Christians reconquered, they kicked everyone out. Islam wasn't the nation that send an army of children to war.

I think i covered the rest of your points, if I didn't let me know.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Robert Spencer quotes Muhammad saying that one can brake an oath if he finds something different which is better, or one can lie (to kill the enemies, or to keep the ''peace'' between muslims. ie, one muslim may lie to the other in such case) if such needs to be done.

Maybe the reason you have such an issue with Islam is you get your information from scholars with no formal training on Islam?

And why is lying to preserve peace a bad thing? I thought Islam was a religion of rabid war-mongrels? 😉

Originally posted by Sam Z

Not criticising Abraham doesn't mean that Qur'an says "it's ok".

*sigh* Yes it does you are just being naive. The Quran more or less says that Abraham has a lot of integrity. People who have integrity dont go around smashing things that dont belong to them. If you see somebody doing something wrong and you dont say anything this usualy means its ok, especially in the case of God when he is supposed to tell us what is right and wrong.

Originally posted by Sam Z

I pretty much answered the question and don't even understand why you brought idolatry, it's just another sin in Islam.

I brought it up because since the Quran does not rebuke Abraham for smashing the idols it therefore means its ok. Are you trying to tell me that you think its not ok to smash idols, but when God Almighty sees some one doing something wrong and he narrates in the Quran he is not going to say anything?

Originally posted by Alliance
Governments like the Taliban do not represent Islam. And fyi, i was part of the UN project to remove and preserve those statues for the Taliban.

How do you know that? Have you studied Islam in depth? So let me get this straight you have NOT studied Islam in depth but you want to tell us wether the Taliban is Islamic or not?

Originally posted by Alliance

If the west would stop assassinating leaders and instilling crappy dictators in the Middles east, maybe real governments could form? I doubt the world is interested in that though, they seem more concerned with raping the oil out of the ground to actually pursue any policy that would help the government. They'd rather starve the Palestinians than try to make peace with an elected government.

You see this is interesting you are not addressing the points I made earlier. Even before muslims had trouble with the West they were commiting atrocities, are you going to use Foreign policy as an excuse then?.

Originally posted by Alliance

^^This is bullshit. When Islam conquered and reconquered the lands, they allowed Christians and Jews to stay and worship as they wish.

Ok so let me get this straight its ok for a group of people to conquer a land and kill people as long as they let them worship the way they want? They reconquered lands? Ok lets see. Mecca is actually a pagan city but that was invaded and the pagans were forced to accept Islam. Iran, Iraq and Turkey as far as I know were orignally pagan lands that the muslims invaded. So ok what youre saying is its ok for muslims to invade other nations because thats what the West has been doing?

Originally posted by Alliance

When the Christians reconquered, they kicked everyone out. Islam wasn't the nation that send an army of children to war.

Why are you picking and choosing what you want. The above is immoral but that still does not make it ok for mulsims to invade other nations. Muslims did not always let people worship they way they wanted.

Originally posted by Alliance

Maybe the reason you have such an issue with Islam is you get your information from scholars with no formal training on Islam?

Er excuse me and how on earth would you know when you dont know anything about Islam? Basically you know a bit of history and thats it, you are also ignoring important points.

What you dont seem to get into your head is that nobody is saying that Christians are perfect but you can criticise it without being killed. There are some really violent aspects to the Bible but most civilised Christians dont accept it. The difference with Islam is that it encourages alot of violence because the religon itself justifies violence.

Originally posted by Alfheim
How do you know that? Have you studied Islam in depth? So let me get this straight you have NOT studied Islam in depth but you want to tell us wether the Taliban is Islamic or not?

Originally posted by Alfheim
You see this is interesting you are not addressing the points I made earlier. Even before muslims had trouble with the West they were commiting atrocities, are you going to use Foreign policy as an excuse then?.

What you can't understand is that these "atrocities" are tactics that have been used historically by groups from every spectrum imaginable.

You complain about thie governments supporting terror and commiting atocities...I am addressing why those governments came into being, but you are too narroly focused on recent events to even realize that all of these issues are culinations of decades of grievances.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok so let me get this straight its ok for a group of people to conquer a land and kill people as long as they let them worship the way they want? They reconquered lands? Ok lets see. Mecca is actually a pagan city but that was invaded and the pagans were forced to accept Islam. Iran, Iraq and Turkey as far as I know were orignally pagan lands that the muslims invaded. So ok what youre saying is its ok for muslims to invade other nations because thats what the West has been doing?

Religion spreads somehow..how do you think most religoins spread? For complaining about Islam, you certinaly don't complain about anything else.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why are you picking and choosing what you want. The above is immoral but that still does not make it ok for mulsims to invade other nations. Muslims did not always let people worship they way they wanted.

Neither did anybody else...why should they be held to a different historical standard? You're just fishing for reasons to rationalize your distaste of Islam.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er excuse me and how on earth would you know when you dont know anything about Islam? Basically you know a bit of history and thats it, you are also ignoring important points.

And you ignore the historical and rational points that create this kind of ideology. Again, I see no reason to believe why you are any mroe credible than I am.

Originally posted by Alfheim
What you dont seem to get into your head is that nobody is saying that Christians are perfect but you can criticise it without being killed. There are some really violent aspects to the Bible but most civilised Christians dont accept it. The difference with Islam is that it encourages alot of violence because the religon itself justifies violence.

And what you seem to be incable of understanding is that there are many points in hisotry where you were instantly killed for criticising Christianity. You'r points make no sense. You say that both the Bible and the Qur'an are violent but that magically one religoin is more violent than the other? I don't think so. I think its obvious that the clear majority of Muslims are not violent, just like anybody else. Terrorism is caused by a clear albeit vocal minoirty. Not to mention, most terrorism is not irrational violence (Al-Queda type), but natinoalistic terrorism (Hamas, Hizbollah, ETA, IRA, etc). There is a sever difference.

There is no such thing as "islamic terrorism" or "Islamofacism" Its croups of Muslims that happen to employ these tactics. Their rationalism may be rooted in religion, but its no different that evangelicals that bomb and murder abortion clinics and abortion clinic workers.

I say you have a narrowminded and one-sided perspective on this issue.

Originally posted by Alliance
I'm not a religous studies major, and I don't do much formal writign on Islamic governments, but I'm not an idiot and I try to stay inforemed on the situation. What grounds do you have to criticise me?

So you dont know much about Islam, ok thank you for that.

Originally posted by Alliance

What you can't understand is that these "atrocities" are tactics that have been used historically by groups from every spectrum imaginable.

Yeah I know....

Originally posted by Alliance

You complain about thie governments supporting terror and commiting atocities...I am addressing why those governments came into being, but you are too narroly focused on recent events to even realize that all of these issues are culinations of decades of grievances.

Er...yeah I know

Originally posted by Alliance

Religion spreads somehow..how do you think most religoins spread? For complaining about Islam, you certinaly don't complain about anything else.

If you paid attention I have said many times before the other two major religons can be just as bad.

Originally posted by Alliance

Neither did anybody else...why should they be held to a different historical standard? You're just fishing for reasons to rationalize your distaste of Islam.

If you say so.

Originally posted by Alliance

And you ignore the historical and rational points that create this kind of ideology. Again, I see no reason to believe why you are any mroe credible than I am.

OK this is interesting..what historical and rational points create this kind of ideology?

Originally posted by Alliance

And what you seem to be incable of understanding is that there are many points in hisotry where you were instantly killed for criticising Christianity.

Right so does this happen alot now then? Whats that? No?

Originally posted by Alliance

You'r points make no sense. You say that both the Bible and the Qur'an are violent but that magically one religoin is more violent than the other? I don't think so.

I see so if you crticise Christanity you're life is going to be in more danger if you crticise Islam? What about if you critcise Buddhism or Hinduism.....what a load of crap.

Originally posted by Alliance

There is no such thing as "islamic terrorism" or "Islamofacism" Its croups of Muslims that happen to employ these tactics. Their rationalism may be rooted in religion, but its no different that evangelicals that bomb and murder abortion clinics and abortion clinic workers.

Ok that is true

Originally posted by Alliance

I say you have a narrowminded and one-sided perspective on this issue.

You're just naive. I was actually a muslim for 6 years and have studied Islam in depth and have met lots of different muslims but you want to tell me about Islam when you dont know anything about it?

Originally posted by Alliance
I was making an overzealous statement to piss of the "all Muslims should be deported from America" bigot, markie.

Jesus is also a fictional character. While it may have been based on a real man, there is no other historical record of his existence. Muhammad was a real man. I doubt the authors of the Bible chose to include any sort of negative things about him.

EVERY nation that has the power to invade has invaded other nations. This is not a sole characteristic of Islamic nations or nations that are majority Islam. Governments like the Taliban do not represent Islam. And fyi, i was part of the UN project to remove and preserve those statues for the Taliban.

If the west would stop assassinating leaders and instilling crappy dictators in the Middles east, maybe real governments could form? I doubt the world is interested in that though, they seem more concerned with raping the oil out of the ground to actually pursue any policy that would help the government. They'd rather starve the Palestinians than try to make peace with an elected government.

^^This is bullshit. When Islam conquered and reconquered the lands, they allowed Christians and Jews to stay and worship as they wish. When the Christians reconquered, they kicked everyone out. Islam wasn't the nation that send an army of children to war.

I think i covered the rest of your points, if I didn't let me know.

Maybe the reason you have such an issue with Islam is you get your information from scholars with no formal training on Islam?

And why is lying to preserve peace a bad thing? I thought Islam was a religion of rabid war-mongrels? 😉

Muslims allwed Jews and Christians to stay where they have, but the crusaides never broke because of that.

Crusaides broke off at the point where the personal safety of the Christians and Jews was no longer guaranteed. Look it up.

I promise you, they were murdered, and the pilgramige to Jerusalem became extreamly dangerous, thus the Christians went to take the land that was theirs.

Besides, this argument is even stupider. What are Muslims doing on the Christian and Jewish holy lands?
Muhammad murdered all Jewish tribes in North Arabia.

What would you say if Christians invaded Mecca and built a Church there, while perecuting Muslims?

Its exactly the same.

As far as my inforomation on Islam goes - ALL information I got is from Muslims sources, Muslim scholars, Qur'an and the Hadiths.
All the info I have is historical, Islamic and I bet any money, a great majority of those information you don't know, and have never read about.

(For example September 11th 1683 had no sagnificance to you, neither you know about the Holocoust of Hindus, murders of Jews and Christians and Pagans, not only in Arabia, but Persia, North Africa, and Europe)

I don't mind you arguing my pioints with me - not at all. What I mind is that you do it complitely ignorant of any Islamic past, or its teachings.

And here is another mistake. Islam is a governmental system and social system FIRST, before it is a personal religion.

Islam cannot be compared to any other religion, because no other religion has the governmental, military and social order, than that o Islam.

So, it is an ideology, an Arabic ideology and imperialsm, before it is a religion.

Also a question, if I gain my knowledge from someone who is ''not educated'' who do you get the info from?

Argh long posts 😛