Re: If God does exist, then why is hiding from us?
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
We are His "so-called" children and He loves us right, but loving parents are always around their children spiritually and emotionally but most importantly,..visually.
It's cuz we're not worthy...we're just a bunch of sloppy animals
Originally posted by Trickster
I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about the development of Christianity, but I thought it was mainly Paul that was in contact with the RCC. Am I mistaken?
Well the Catholic Church can apparently connect itself directly to the 12 apostles, but it had a strong bond with Peter, who I believe some consider the first Pope.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well I guess from a religious stand point that would be qualifications for thinking of the period dark, but it seems harsh not to take into account human achievement in the time (like the "no Latin writings" ones who labeled the period that failing to also take into accounts the East and the west continuing achievements in the period.)
Yes, I can understand that. We do take them into account. We believe that much of this led to the ability of Joseph Smith to question religion as he did.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Makes me wonder though - with the close ties between certain Disciples and the Catholic Church (or at least Early Christians and Rome), why wasn't this "authority" passed on to them?
We believe that the True Christian Church must follow the structure that Christ created in the Bible. It must have at all times a current Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. As precedent for this we use the fact that the Twelve in the Bible replaced members as they died. The loss of the Twelve was the breaking point in authority. I am unsure as to why the Twelve vanished, I am unaware of a history that explains this, but I assume there is little explanation for it. In the Catholic Church they created the College of Cardinals after the Twelve vanished. Given this I must assume that the College was not appointed by the Twelve. There are historical documents stating that the Twelve maintained the Gospel as taught by Jesus, and that, after they vanished, false teachings began to creep into the Church.
Ah, I see.
I guess that makes sense. As does your point. If they were so close, then Peter would have passed down the authority of pope, unless it was merely a position of honour (first among equals).
Regret, wouldn't Peter's successor have had the ability to appoint other apostle/cardinals, if he was the leader of the faith?
(On another note, if there must always be twelve apostles, how did two men re-establish the Church of LDS?)
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well the Catholic Church can apparently connect itself directly to the 12 apostles, but it had a strong bond with Peter, who I believe some consider the first Pope.
Yes, Peter is considered the first Pope by Catholics. Mormons believe that the Catholic Church was the Chruch started by Christ. We just believe that they have altered the teachings of Christ to the point that it is no longer the same belief system as existed in the early Church.
My wife was Catholic, I used to attend Mass with her on Saturdays and discuss religion with the Priest (might have been some position other than this, but I am not sure which, he was at the least a priest) there afterwards.
Originally posted by Trickster
Ah, I see.I guess that makes sense. As does your point. If they were so close, then Peter would have passed down the authority of pope, unless it was merely a position of honour (first among equals).
Regret, wouldn't Peter's successor have had the ability to appoint other apostle/cardinals, if he was the leader of the faith?
(On another note, if there must always be twelve apostles, how did two men re-establish the Church of LDS?)
We don't believe that Peter was a Pope, we believe the position was created after the Twelve vanished to fill the absence of leadership. We believe it probable that the Apostles did not appoint successors due to the people leaving the original teachings in favor of false teachings.
We believe Peter, James and John were sent by God to re-establish the Twelve.
Originally posted by Trickster
Okay. Still, I don't understand how if there must always be twelve Apostles, two men could re-establish the Church.
We believe the Prophet that is called to preside over the entire Church holds all the authority of the entire Quorum of the Twelve. We believe that Joseph Smith was given that authority by Peter, James and John. He later ordained the Twelve, giving each the authority respective to his position within the Twelve. When a Prophet dies, the Twelve then unanimously call, through what we believe to be revelation, the Prophet, and each member of the Twelve then confers the authority they hold upon the Prophet.
It just occurred to me that this could explain how the Apostles could have vanished, and it is probable that this would be our belief. Although I would still be unsure about why such a thing would occur, although we believe the great apostasy spoken of in the Bible is this apostasy.
Re: If God does exist, then why is hiding from us?
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
We are His "so-called" children and He loves us right, but loving parents are always around their children spiritually and emotionally but most importantly,..visually.
Maybe he doesn't want us to see how he looks...he could very ugly....u never know.... 😕
Originally posted by Regret
We believe the Prophet that is called to preside over the entire Church holds all the authority of the entire Quorum of the Twelve. We believe that Joseph Smith was given that authority by Peter, James and John. He later ordained the Twelve, giving each the authority respective to his position within the Twelve. When a Prophet dies, the Twelve then unanimously call, through what we believe to be revelation, the Prophet, and each member of the Twelve then confers the authority they hold upon the Prophet.It just occurred to me that this could explain how the Apostles could have vanished, and it is probable that this would be our belief. Although I would still be unsure about why such a thing would occur, although we believe the great apostasy spoken of in the Bible is this apostasy.
Interesting. Tell me, since I think one of the jobs of the prophets was to write, have all the ones since the original ones in the Book of Mormon (I only know of Nephi and Alma) continued writing? Does the BoM have to be updated regularly?
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Interesting. Tell me, since I think one of the jobs of the prophets was to write, have all the ones since the original ones in the Book of Mormon (I only know of Nephi and Alma) continued writing? Does the BoM have to be updated regularly?
They maintain records, we have fairly regular articles from him presented in our monthly magazine, The Ensign, he speaks at every Bi-Annual General Conference of our Church and all the talks from them are presented in The Ensign for reading, and we believe God mandated everyone to keep a current record of their personal life. I believe that the majority of Prophets have had 10-50 or more volumes of journals.
The BoM isn't updated regularly. We believe that the BoM is an abridgement of comparable journals kept by the ancient prophets presented in it.
We have a book called the Doctrine and Covenants which is updated(not having things taken out, but the new placed at the end) when a prophet has a revelation altering the organization, structure, or other important aspect of Church function.
Also, there have been a few proclamations that have gone out, the most recent one that is of major comment lately is The Family: A Proclamation to the World
Originally posted by debbiejo
Acutally there were 13 including Paul the heretic,
* there are 16 Apostles including Christ Himself... 15 excluding Judas Iscariot...
Originally posted by debbiejo
God never chose him, he chose himself saying so.
* God chose Saint Paul, and his apostleship to the Gentiles was a prophesy fulfilled from the Old Testament... 😉
Originally posted by Regret
Also, there have been a few proclamations that have gone out, the most recent one that is of major comment lately is The Family: A Proclamation to the World
So does he decide to do this when he wishes or is it a joint decision? This particular proclamation, is it in response to something? Because the things it advocate I thought were what Christian's in general are meant to believe.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Acutally there were 13 including Paul the heretic,.God never chose him, he chose himself saying so.
Wow, thanks for that totally irrelevant post. I don't actually really care how many Apostles there were: I was just inquiring in to the beliefs of the Church of LDS. Anyway, weren't all the Apostles heretics? (In regards to Judaism.)
Originally posted by Regret
We believe the Prophet that is called to preside over the entire Church holds all the authority of the entire Quorum of the Twelve. We believe that Joseph Smith was given that authority by Peter, James and John. He later ordained the Twelve, giving each the authority respective to his position within the Twelve. When a Prophet dies, the Twelve then unanimously call, through what we believe to be revelation, the Prophet, and each member of the Twelve then confers the authority they hold upon the Prophet.It just occurred to me that this could explain how the Apostles could have vanished, and it is probable that this would be our belief. Although I would still be unsure about why such a thing would occur, although we believe the great apostasy spoken of in the Bible is this apostasy.
That's interesting. (Sorry, a couple of follow-up questions.) Why did they (John, Peter and James) wait 1700 years to appoint a new prophet? Surely it would have been better to appoint a propher at some period during the Dark Ages, unless this position would be filled by the pope.
Also, what is the hierarchy within the Twelve? All the pictures I have seen of them seem to be representing them as equals.
Originally posted by Trickster
That's interesting. (Sorry, a couple of follow-up questions.) Why did they (John, Peter and James) wait 1700 years to appoint a new prophet? Surely it would have been better to appoint a propher at some period during the Dark Ages, unless this position would be filled by the pope.
As to why wait, we believe that had the Church been brought back before this time it would not have been received well by the people, and would have been attacked heavily and possibly destroyed by the various powers that be. The United States, offered religious protection such that it could be brought back without this possibility, we believe that is a portion of the reason. Also, Joseph Smith asked. He doubted all the religious options offered him, and asked God what to do. I am unsure that another did this.
Also, from what I have read about the Popes, they do not seem to have been the best of people. The indulgences, various instances of bastard children, infallibility clauses that give a Pope free reign of behavior, etc.
My personal belief is that most likely no one asked God about the subject. Many men thought they knew how it should be, and so they started various religious sects based on what they perceived as wrong and right methodology, but I do not believe they asked God in the same manner.
Also, a recognition of error within the Christian church must have occurred. Until shortly before the 19th century there was not a broad recognition by Christians of a lacking in their religion. For most of the Dark Ages, the people did not recognize anything missing from the Christian religion.
We believe that there are times that are set for various occurrences:
The Fall of Adam
Noah
Moses
Elijah
Christ
Joseph Smith
Brigham Young
Second Coming
Return to a Pre-Fall level of existence
These are just a few that show a small portion of what we consider important events that basically mirror each other. There is a time frame in our belief for various events. We don't believe all events mirror, but many major ones do.
Originally posted by Trickster
Also, what is the hierarchy within the Twelve? All the pictures I have seen of them seem to be representing them as equals.
As to hierarchy, typically this is decided by seniority. I am unsure as to how this works, and am unsure if any real hierarchy really exists, but what hierarchy exists that I am aware of is based in seniority. There was some form of hierarchy existent, in the Bible there are instances when one apostle defers to another.