Jesus Christ is not Mithra

Started by Bicnarok8 pages

Re: Jesus Christ is not Mithra

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/mithras.htm

[B]Mithras

By Mark McFall

This investigation of Mithraism will mainly focus on the critics assertion that Christianity borrowed the resurrection myth from Mithra. The reason that we will be zooming in on the resurrection and not similarities in sacraments is because the very heart of the Gospel rests in the resurrection narrative. If the resurrection was borrowed from pagan influences and did not historically happen, then as Paul says: "...if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain" (1 Corn. 15:14).

Assertions made by critics for a Mithra-Jesus connection abound in literature critical of Christianity. One such example can be found in the works of contemporary Muslim scholar Yousuf Saleem Chishti in his book "What is Christianity". Chishti writes:

"The Christian doctrine of atonement was greatly coloured by the influence of the mystery religions, especially Mithraism, which had its own son of God and virgin Mother, and crucifixion and resurrection after expiating for the sins of mankind and finally his ascension to the 7th heaven....If you study the teachings of Mithraism side by side with that of Christianity, you are sure to be amazed at the close affinity which is visible between them, so much so that many critics are constrained to conclude that Christianity is the facsimile or the second edition of Mithraism."1

Another leading proponent of that view is Acharya S in her critical book The Christ Conspiracy, she states that Mithra "was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again". 2 These alleged direct connections with Jesus must be backed with evidence - and as Christians we must demand such evidence.

Where Is That Evidence?

This subject basically comes down to who is more informed in Mithriac origins, and my intentions are to equip you with adequate critical information. What some critics seem to be unaware of is that attempts to reconstruct the beliefs and practices of Mithraism face enormous challenges because of the lack of information that has survived. In fact, we posses no existing texts of their belief system that come from the Mithraic devotees themselves (one is left wondering what sources Chishti knows about that the rest of Mithraic scholars are unaware of). The only references that we have concerning the beliefs of Mithraism are found in early Church fathers (for the reason of defending Christ’s uniqueness) and Platonic philosophers who used Mithraic symbolism for their own philosophical ideas.3

Archaeology And Timing

According to scholars, our late literary sources are extremely sparse concerning Mithriasm. However, there is an abundance of material evidence (i.e. artifacts) for the existence of Mithraism that has been found in underground temples (i.e. imitation caves) referred to as mithraeums.

Attempts concerning dating methods have been made in the past in an endeavor to place at least one of these mithraeum in the first century era. Professor Ronald Nash the author of The Gospel And The Greeks, captures one of these moments by the Swedish scholar George Widengren. He claimed that an excavation at Dura (Europos) is a mithraeum dated to A.D. 80-85 which points to the possible presence of a Mithraic cult before the end of the first century A.D..4 Critics who cite Widengren dating system should do well to know that Widengren himself has admitted that "the evidence is very uncertain."5 According to other scholars, including the noted mithriac scholar M.J. Vermaseren, the Dura Mithraeum that Widengren dated so early should be dated much later, in A.D. 168.6

Archaeologist have found in these subterranean mithraeums artifacts of carved reliefs, statues, and paintings, depicting a variety of enigmatic figures and scenes.7 These images are our only primary source of knowledge about Mithraic beliefs8 (there are no written accounts to aid us in interpreting these images). Mithraic scholars identify the particular depiction of Mithras in the act of killing a bull as the central icon of Mithraism known as the tauroctony or "bull-slaying scene." In this scene Mithras is accompanied by a dog, a snake, a raven, and a scorpion.9

According Nash, none of these representative "monuments for the cult can be dated earlier than A.D. 90-100."10 Nash identifies this as "one of the major reasons why no Mithraic influence on first-century Christianity is possible."11 Indeed, the bulk of out-side references for Roman Mithraism date between the 2nd-5th centuries.12These late literary out-side sources are the only means in which scholars (or critics) attempt to form reconstruction’s of what they think (uncritically) were the beliefs of earlier pioneers for the mystery cult. This type of reasoning is particularly bad scholarship and should not be left without challenge.

The Plutarch reference of Mithra

Prior To The New Testament

The response from critics to the lack of archaeology finds prior to 90 A.D., is to cite the historian Plutarch (aprox. 34-125 A.D.) who made reference to Mithras in the pre-Christian era. Plutarch writes:

"They themselves [the Cilician pirates] offered strange sacrifices upon Mount Olympus, and performed certain secret rites or religious mysteries, among which those of Mithras have been preserved to our own time having received their previous institution from them." (Plutarch, Lives13)

According to the critical view, "Plutarch reports that Mithraism was introduce to the soldiers of Pompey the Great by Cilician pirates. Although it didn't flourish until later, it may well have been introduced in some form in the first century B.C.E."14,15 They charge that there were "worshippers of Mithras in Rome in Pompey's time (67 BC)."16

In response to this, professor Nash comments that:

"...any conclusion along this line can be, at best, only an inference from Plutarch’s text, which itself makes no such claim. All Plutarch states explicitly is that some of the pirates practiced Mithraic mysteries and that some of them in all likely hood were taken to Rome as trophies of Pompey’s victory. But Plutarch himself does not state that Mithraism was established in Italy in or before 67 B.C.17

However, if the critics are right in their interpretation of Plutarch, it is only by speculations and assumptions that lead them (the critics) to assume that the alleged resurrection of Mithra was in practices as an ideology in its very earliest development in Rome. Even at its peek of popularity in the 2nd-4th centuries we are still left with no primary evidence to indicate a resurrection of Mithra.

It is also worth noting that Mithriac scholars of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies acknowledge that there exists today an ideology problem in tracing Mithraic belief. One scholar lamented that:

"At present our knowledge of both general and local cult practice in respect of rites of passage, ceremonial feats and even underlying ideology is based more on conjecture than on fact."18

Moreover, the Greco-Roman scholar Richard Gordon advises us that there is "no death of Mithras." 19So if there is no death of Mithras, how are we able to identify that there was any type of resurrection at all?

The lack of any artifacts dated prior to 90 A.D. seems to imply that Plutarch’s reference to the Mithras religion was in all probability to a very small and secretive society (if indeed the critics are right in interpreting Plutarch’s reference). The Oxford Companion to Classical Civilization estimates that at its height in popularity [2nd - 5th centuries], it never encompassed more than 2% of the population.20 It is at this point, that when we look back and try to speculate what percentage of the population was influenced by a more primitive prototype of Mithriasm, that we begin to see the improbability of such an influence on the writers of the New Testament. Mithraism was basically a military cult which excluded women. Therefore, one must be skeptical about suggestions that it appealed to nonmilitary people like the early Christians.

Two Mithras

Most critics are unaware that there are two distinct forms of this pagan mystery religion under the same name - Mithra. They are Roman Mithraism, and Iranian Mithraism. Critics more times than not confuse the two forms in an attempt to trace Roman Mithraism as far back as they can. However, these two versions of Mithraism have no direct connection with each other. Critics respond to this by saying:

"...Mithraism arose in the region of what is now Iran and spread to Rome. Roman forms of worship may have been different than those in Persia/Iran, but to say that there's no direct connection is like saying that the Russian Orthodox Church has no direct connection to Pentecostal Christian sects in North America - both are forms of Christianity.21

These types of comments are very prevalent on the internet, but there isn’t the slightest shred of evidence to directly connect the two beliefs. In fact, they are totally independent of each other. Let me explain: As mentioned earlier, the tauroctony (bull-slaying scene) of Roman Mithraism was located in the most important place in every mithraeum (temple). Thus, if the god Mithras of the Roman religion was actually the Iranian god Mithra, we should expect to find in Iranian mythology a story in which Mithra kills a bull.22 [/B]

Could you write that in white please, so people can read it! 😠

Re: Re: Jesus Christ is not Mithra

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Could you write that in white please, so people can read it! 😠

Or not write it al all. 😆

Oh sweet religon forum.How could I go for so long without posting.(Sigh)..........................................

Instead of speaking strickly of Mithra or Mithras,however you are going to say it,I will just speak soley on god men as a whole in relation to the whole Jesus is not Mithra.Most christian scholars consider the god- man theory to no longer be an issue in regards to early or pre-Christian history.Take for example drawings depecting a man with a donkeys head crucified on a cross.Beside the cross stands a man laughing at the donkey.Christian scholars claim the drawing is a pagan work mocking Christ and the crucifixtion and nothing more.Okay.
On to another part of the argument.Christian scholars also claim that many striking similarities between Christianity and Paganism is not the result of Christianity borrowing from other religions and cults,but the complete opposite.In order to maintain followers,these mystery cults had to change much of their mythology in accordance to that of Christianity to survive.These scholars claim the unpresidented rise of the Christian faith forced many other cults to try to 'mock' the stories of Christ.

This is what they claim.

However,this is the other side and the one that makes more sense to me.

The picture depciting a donkey on a cross is not a mockery of Christ,but actualy represents the symbolic transistion of the death of the animal and lower form of the soul while the man laughing represents the higher self laughing at the death of his lower self.This also supports the gnostic teachings of Christ laughing while his lower self is being put upon the cross.So you might be saying,'okay their some pretty suprising symbolism between pagan cults and early christian beliefs,so what?

The depection of the donkey on the cross predates all portraits and iconography of a Christian crucifixtion.It seems awfully suspicious that pagans would make fun of Christian iconography that didn't even exist yet.

On to the next part of this argument.Some Christian scholars also claims that these pagan cults actualy borrowed from Christianity.Well this is a very interesting point of view.They switch the postitions and seem to have an alright lead to follow.However,as many other scholars have pointed out,this view of the posistions being 'reversed' is automaticly negated.Early Christians even admitted themselves that their were striking simularities between their faith and older pagan myths.(I highly recommend reading the works of Origen that include Celsus.Celsus speaks on this matter quite often.
Origen vs Celsus.)

Christians claimed the devil,knowing Christ would soon descend upon the earth,copied the events from his yet untold life and applied them to cults that existed before the one of the followers of Christ.

Based upon the writings of early Christians we know that even they were suprised at the striking simularities between their faith and the older pagan cults.They later claimed this was the work of, none other than the devil.

Their are so many more things I could bring up but I'm tired of typing write now!
I figured instead of just bashing Jesusisalive,I would actualy reply with a post countering the sources for his post.Instead of focusing on Mithra alone I applied this to several other god-men.I could list them if anyone wanted but if your reading this chances are you already know.

Jesusisalive I have a suggestion for you.I'm not going to bash you or make fun of you when I say this.I'm just giving a suggestion.Instead of making all these threads were you use Christianity more as an advertisement than a gateway to salvation,why don't you focus more on posting on other threads and adding your ideas their.Your sure as hell not going to convince anyone of what your saying by spamming all over the board.

JIA READS IT ON TEH INTERNETS!

Originally posted by Alliance
JIA READS IT ON TEH INTERNETS!

What you been drinking?

Originally posted by Bicnarok
What you been drinking?

piss