X-Men vs. Hal Jordan

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
So? I was addressing another point.

It's practically impossible to tell how he will evolve in any given scenario. That's not "writer's wishes": that is the way his powers work. He will evolve in a way that favors his survival, not the defeat of an enemy.

Originally posted by 753
I think it's more tied to not having a character too powerfull stomping mild threats to a mildly powefull team like in x-factor. In his initial run his adaptations were mostly actual usefull powers, not this self-bfr nonsense.

His powers have worked like this since his introduction.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
Cannonball beating Gladiator is ridiculous if we look at what each are capable of doing at their usual levels. Havok had the advantage that he is highly suited to fighting Vulcan considering he is not immune, but at least resistant to his powers.

I never said Hal wins, I said no one solo's him. Together the people I listed as being able to beat him probably beat him, but certainly none of them 1 v. 1.

Hal has also contained an exploding star so forget it being Kyle's feat, Hal has done it too. I certainly never said auto-shields = auto-win. I merely was explaining that he has auto-shields because some people seem to overlook that fact, and that they have stood up to explosive forces far greater than that of a nuclear explosion, and also that they grant protection from Telepathy and temperature change as well as physical assaults.

I find that those who resolve to calling others stupid for disagreeing to be childish and rude. I'm trying to have a civil debate here and the best you can do is insult me and say i said things I never said?

Xavier, Darwin CAN solo him. Just like Hal can solo them. And now you're beginning to see the problems in your blanket statements.

Can easily list off the highest feats of each of the X-Men that have nothing to do with projecting other characters' feats onto them or relying on retconned feats.

You're stupid for disagreeing. And nevertheless, whether I think so or not, I don't find people who think I'm childish and rude to not be worth my time or not worth my arguments. How magnanimous I must be. Or I just disagree (strongly or not) with conclusions I find illogical no matter how personal people would like to think it is to find a convenient excuse to cover up the gaping holes in their argumention.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Cannonball never beat Gladiator.

Possession =/= telepathy

Darwin's powers don't work like that. It's a 50/50 chance that he'll evolve something offensive, and an even lower chance that it will be sufficient.

Professor X can solo if Jordan doesn't consciously raise TP shields. It's certainly possible that he won't know about the presence of telepaths in this battle.

This is true.

50/50 chance?

This is true.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Objection: bullsh1t.

This is true.

50/50 chance?

This is true.

From my memory the scans of that "feat" consist of:

- Cannonball and Gladiator charging at each other
- Cannonball absorbing the kinetic energy of Gladiator's punch unconsciously (afterwards he remarks on how he never knew he could do that)
- Gladiator pausing in surprise and Cannonball channeling that energy back into his own punch
- Cable and company congratulating Cannonball
- Gladiator bursting out of wreckage in a pissed-off mood

That hardly counts as a victory, let alone a notable feat beyond discovering a new ability. That doesn't even count as a low feat for Gladiator since he essentially hit himself.

Darwin's powers will protect him from harm. He won't necessarily evolve something that will hurt Jordan. He can but it can't be predicted. You might as well flip a coin.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Objection: bullsh1t.

If Gladiator was allowed to continue the fight he would have crushed Sam.

Pretty much in my top 5 Xmen issues of all time.

is gladiator supereme cannon ?

Originally posted by the ninjak
If Gladiator was allowed to continue the fight he would have crushed Sam.

Pretty much in my top 5 Xmen issues of all time.

This makes sense.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
From my memory the scans of that "feat" consist of:

- Cannonball and Gladiator charging at each other
- Cannonball absorbing the kinetic energy of Gladiator's punch unconsciously (afterwards he remarks on how he never knew he could do that)
- Gladiator pausing in surprise and Cannonball channeling that energy back into his own punch
- Cable and company congratulating Cannonball
- Gladiator bursting out of wreckage in a pissed-off mood

That hardly counts as a victory, let alone a notable feat beyond discovering a new ability. That doesn't even count as a low feat for Gladiator since he essentially hit himself.

Darwin's powers will protect him from harm. He won't necessarily evolve something that will hurt Jordan. He can but it can't be predicted. You might as well flip a coin.

... and Sam lost the fight. This makes complete sense.

You restated the same conclusion. Darwin has a 50/50 chance? Based on what?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This makes sense. So Sam figured out how to return the kinetic energy of Gladiator's strongest punch...

... and Sam lost the fight. This makes complete sense.

Nobody won. They exchanged blows and that was it. He didn't "beat" Gladiator in any sense of the term since they wasn't a real "fight" to speak of.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Darwin has a 50/50 chance? Based on what?

Based on his previous showings. He has just as good a chance to come up with something that will hurt Hal Jordan as something that will only defend himself.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Nobody won. They exchanged blows and that was it. He didn't "beat" Gladiator in any sense of the term since they wasn't a real "fight" to speak of.

Based on his previous showings. He has just as good a chance to come up with something that will hurt Hal Jordan as something that will only defend himself.

That's the point I made: Darwin could solo. I didn't say Darwin solos 10/10. I said he could solo. So we misunderstood each other.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Right. If the fight kept going... whereupon Sam turned Gladiator's self-proclaimed strongest blow back onto him... somehow... Sam would lose if he continued.

...I'm saying that there wasn't a fight that was won or lost, and Cannonball being able to floor Gladiator has a perfectly reasonable explanation behind it. People always get the context wrong by saying Cannonball won or it was PIS. It's neither, and I'm not speculating on the possible outcome of an extended match.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's the point I made: Darwin [b]could solo. I didn't say Darwin solos 10/10. I said he could solo. So we misunderstood each other. [/B]

It seems like it.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
...I'm saying that there wasn't a fight that was won or lost, and Cannonball being able to floor Gladiator has a perfectly reasonable explanation behind it. People always get the context wrong by saying Cannonball won or it was PIS. It's neither, and I'm not speculating on the possible outcome of an extended match.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
It seems like it.

Unfortunately, there are posters who wouldn't even countenance Darwin soloi'ng Hal.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You said it wasn't a "notable feat." I'm asking you right now, if you had to guess... and Sam just figured out how to redirect Gladiator's strongest attack... if Gladiator decided to re-engage him, who would have won?

Still Gladiator. Cannonball can only redirect kinetic energy if his force field is up and that's mostly when he's flying. Not familiar with Gladiator's intelligence but I don't think he would continue to hammer at the force field if there's no visible damage (although he looked pretty angry when he resurfaced). He has a variety of powers to work with if brute strength doesn't suffice. If Gladiator catches Cannonball on the ground, it's over.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
👆

Unfortunately, there are posters who wouldn't even countenance Darwin soloi'ng Hal.

If he gets a lucky roll of the dice. There's really nothing that Darwin can't do.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Still Gladiator. Cannonball can only redirect kinetic energy if his force field is up and that's mostly when he's flying. Not familiar with Gladiator's intelligence but I don't think he would continue to hammer at the force field if there's no visible damage (although he looked pretty angry when he resurfaced). He has a variety of powers to work with if brute strength doesn't suffice. If Gladiator catches Cannonball on the ground, it's over.

Right. This is either a sincere impression despite one character utterly no-selling another charcacter's self-proclaimed strongest attack, or a projection despite the plain presentation of the comic. I'll understand if you think otherwise, because this is a complete tangent.

GLs wouldn't no-sell, much less redirect, the (and self-proclaimed) strongest attack of Superman, or Henshaw, or Amazo, or Mongul.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Even though Sam just figured out how to turn Gladiator's strongest attack against him.

A couple of issues later Sam got owned by Prime Sentinels. I thought after the issue where he beat Gladiator that he was practically a Super Saiyen. But if you attack Cannonball from his rear he goes down.

Gladiator would've adapted to this tactic quickly. Gladiator had speed over him.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
His powers have worked like this since his introduction.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
It seems like it.

Unfortunately, there are posters who wouldn't even countenance Darwin soloi'ng Hal.

If you are referring to me, reread what I wrote. I said that Darwin had a slim chance of beating Hal. I never said that it was impossible, just slim. As I said in my first post his adaptation very well may not give him the ability to solo Hal, it's possible it could, but not altogether likely.

Also just because he just figured out he could redirect Gladiator's attack doesn't mean he could do it every other time, or with any consistency. It's a one-time feat. Besides any intelligent fighter would quickly change tactics. You act as if Gladiator had no other way of engaging Sam.

Originally posted by 753
No, his powers gave him whatever he needed to get by and preserve himself, this easisest path self-bfr started with that wwh non-sense.

"To preserve himself". That equals a lot of things. If Hal attacks him he could:

- Self-BFR
- develop a cocoon around himself for protection
- become intangible
- gain super strength and durability
- turn into pure energy
- absorb Oan energy
- turn into liquid
- gain flight

etc.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So clearly if that fight were to keep going, Sam would have ended up on the ground. Thus Gladiator wins.

Right. This is either a sincere impression despite one character utterly no-selling another charcacter's self-proclaimed strongest attack, or a projection despite the plain presentation of the comic. I'll understand if you think otherwise, because this is a complete tangent.

GLs wouldn't no-sell, much less redirect, the (and self-proclaimed) strongest attack of Superman, or Henshaw, or Amazo, or Mongul.

Yeah, it could end in a victory for Sam. If the exact same set of actions happened again...

...and again

...and again.

I don't see Gladiator trying the same strategy until he gets knocked out by his own power. But I've only seen him in War of Kings so maybe I'm overestimating his intelligence.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
"To preserve himself". That equals a lot of things. If Hal attacks him he could:

- Self-BFR
- develop a cocoon around himself for protection
- become intangible
- gain super strength and durability
- turn into pure energy
- absorb Oan energy
- turn into liquid
- gain flight

etc.

Yeah, it could end in a victory for Sam. If the exact same set of actions happened again...

...and again

...and again.

I don't see Gladiator trying the same strategy until he gets knocked out by his own power. But I've only seen him in War of Kings so maybe I'm overestimating his intelligence.