Originally posted by Alfheim
Why not, if you believe that everything has intelligence? The only reason why you think its not real is because you have a different view of reality. My reality doesnt fit yours therefore you're wrong.
"My reality doesn't fit yours therefore you're wrong."
Well, how about that. I think there is value in the relativism but that is taking it to absurd extremes. I do not believe that simply believing in an hallucination makes it real. There is a reason why people with mental illness are treated and not told by their doctors "Hey, you clearly believe in your hallucination, that is good enough for me. Go and believe in it."
And no, I do not believe everything has an intelligence.
So just because your hear a voice or you have a vision means that you should listen to it?
So a crazy fanatical Christian or Muslim believes they are having a vision of an angelic messenger from their God... yes, I can see how in that situation one shouldn't listen to it.
You are arguing a person perception of reality can make a hallucination real, but after doing that they should have the presence of mind to go "hmmm, Angel telling me to kill my children, while my perception of reality tells me you are really are a messenger of God, I think I wont listen to you."
[/b]Well obvoulsy thats a joke, but all you seem to be stating is that some hallucinations if listened to can be dangerous therefore they are not real. Doesn't really seem to prove anything.[/b]
Actually it seems to prove how very odd this all is. So a hallucination that tells a person to do good things is can be real, but if it tells a person to do bad things clearly it is wrong. What if it tells a person to steal from the rich to give to the poor? Or to take back the streets from drugdealers through violence - it seems a very relative thing.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
"My reality doesn't fit yours therefore you're wrong."Well, how about that. I think there is value in the relativism but that is taking it to absurd extremes.
You do realise thats a matter of opinion? Just because somebody hears a lettuce talking and you dont, doesnt mean a damn thing. Alot of people think death metal is extreme as well, doesnt mean the music is crap.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I do not believe that simply believing in an hallucination makes it real.
Good for you, subjective opinion.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
There is a reason why people with mental illness are treated and not told by their doctors "Hey, you clearly believe in your hallucination, that is good enough for me. Go and believe in it."
At the end of the day they are entitled to their opinion, as long as their hallucinations arent hurting anybody who cares. Besides in pyschology there is difference of opinion on hallucinations for example Carl Jung belived in near death experiences.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And no, I do not believe everything has an intelligence.
Well that could explain why you dont see talking lettuces.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So a crazy fanatical Christian or Muslim believes they are having a vision of an angelic messenger from their God... yes, I can see how in that situation one shouldn't listen to it.
Well it depends on what they are telling you.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
You are arguing a person perception of reality can make a hallucination real, but after doing that they should have the presence of mind to go "hmmm, Angel telling me to kill my children, while my perception of reality tells me you are really are a messenger of God, I think I wont listen to you."
Well if your not a violent person then you wont listen to the voices will you, but that doesnt mean the voices are not real it means the voices should not be listened to. Thats one of the reasons why im not muslim I cant stand all the violence and intolerance.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Actually it seems to prove how very odd this all is. So a hallucination that tells a person to do good things is can be real, but if it tells a person to do bad things clearly it is wrong. What if it tells a person to steal from the rich to give to the poor? Or to take back the streets from drugdealers through violence - it seems a very relative thing.
Well do you listen to everything that people tell you? Look this is the way I see it, its a matter of opinion. Here are some examples.
I watched a program about scientists who heard voices that enabled them to come up with scientific theories. Why cant there voices be considered to be real? If the voices display intelligence and are useful why do they have to be hallucinations? Does the fact that you cant hear the voices mean that they are not real?
In the program there were also examples of people that heard voices that told them to kill people. Obvoulsy they didnt listen to the voices, but just because the voices tell you to kill people doesnt mean there not real.....it means they should not be listened to.
Experts who meditate are able to to stand in freezing cold temperatures and wrap cold towels around themselves and dry the towels with their body heat. They do this by visualising a flame that heats the body and drys the towels. As far as im concerned if the fire that they imagine acts as a real flame and keeps them warm that flame can be considered to be real.....because it works.
Other experts at meditationg can go into a deep trance and see other beings. These beings can be seen as self-induced hallucinations OR real beings as far as im concerned. As I said before if these beings can be seen and heard and display intelligence, give useful advice why are they not real?
Is the glass half full or half empty?
Which is different from so many Christians clearly stating "if you don't follow our teachings and accept God and Jesus you go to hell" how exactly?
Originally posted by Fatima
🤨 How about Christianity and Judaism ??
Originally posted by Eis
It's not, I've no idea why I said that but it doesn't change anything. Regardless of whatever the bible might say Christians do not go around hanging homosexuals or stoning adulterers.
It's futile and nonsensical to claim modern day Christianity is at the same level of absurdity as modern day Islam.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Neuroscientist. Hallucinations are not "real,"
Define real.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
they're a result of neurocognitive abnormalities,
I think that depends, going into a trance like state as far as I know doesnt cause neurocognitive abnormalities. At any rate all it means is that under certain conidtions people see hallucinations its still subjective wether its real or not. It could simply be argued that having neurocogntive abnormailties increase your potential especially since savants can memorise and calculate information in seconds.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
the etymology even derives from Latin to dream and/or be deceived.
C'mon man I dont have to use the word hallucination I could use the word vision.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Flying Spaghetti Monster. Poopycock. Jibber-jabber.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Define real.
Real is something that everyone experiences equally.
Anything you experience personally is only "real" to you. Halluicinations are a localized experience. No, there is not a giant spider charging towards you. OYu may experience it, but no one else does. Its not real.
By the same token, any religious hallucinations are not real.
Originally posted by Eis
It's not, I've no idea why I said that but it doesn't change anything. Regardless of whatever the bible might say Christians do not go around hanging homosexuals or stoning adulterers.
It's futile and nonsensical to claim modern day Christianity is at the same level of absurdity as modern day Islam.
Exactly.....Islam is far worse today than Christianity is. Christianity has progressed far better than Islam has....Islam is still 5 centures behind Christianity in terms of social progress and equality, human rights and animal rights.
Originally posted by Alliance
Real is something that everyone experiences equally.
Anything you experience personally is only "real" to you.
Ok so if I go to a forest and experience something and nobody is there to see it that means its not real?
Originally posted by Alliance
Halluicinations are a localized experience. No, there is not a giant spider charging towards you. OYu may experience it, but no one else does.
Well actually you may not be able to see the hallucination but you maybe able to see the affects of it. For example a hallucination could inspire me to write eloquent poetry. You may not be able to see the hallucination but you can see the affcets of it.
According to your logic if somebody comes to my house and leaves a poetry book, that person could not have been real because you were not there to see it.
Originally posted by AlfheimExample: auditory hallucination. If you're in a forest and "hear" an auditory hallucination with no physical auditory stimulus then no, the auditory stimulus is not real simply because you "heard" it.
Ok so if I go to a forest and experience something and nobody is there to see it that means its not real?
You are trying to define an objective sensory stimulus as existing purely because an individual has a subjective perception without any objective sensory stimulus. Reading that convoluted sentence in itself should make you realise it's a flawed rationale.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound. Yes. It produces mechanical energy and auditory stimuli.
If you perceive a tree falling in the forest based on no sensory stimuli, no one can measure any sensory stimuli and no one else has any perception of it whatsoever, does it make mean the tree exists. No. Poopycock. Jibber-jabber.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well actually you may not be able to see the hallucination but you maybe able to see the affects of it. For example a hallucination could inspire me to write eloquent poetry. You may not be able to see the hallucination but you can see the affcets of it.
Originally posted by Alfheim
According to your logic if somebody comes to my house and leaves a poetry book, that person could not have been real because you were not there to see it.
A book is a physical object. We can find proof that it was moved. Someone else saw the guy come into your house. Or the book is there as evidence.
These are physical things and not some emotional whim that is more likely a psychiatric problem. The two aren't comparable.