INCEST=worng or not

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This seems irrelevant to a moral argument unless you're starting from the idea that anything that feels bad is bad.

Sleeping with any member of your family is incest, am I correct? If so and a person lives by the old slogan that incest is best, then sleeping with your parents would be just fine, and as such if a person feels fine with it, then nothing is wrong, but if a person feels that the act of sleeping with their parents is wrong, then they would need to question the entire act. if not, it would be fairly hypocritical.

This goes beyond a feeling, because I would never live my life based on how I felt about everything. To know what is right and what is wrong is based on convictions. So I pose the same question to you, would you be able to sleep with your parents? if so wold it be right or wrong to you? I know several people who have slept with cousins, but when asked if they would sleep with their parents, I never heard any of them say yes to it. Therefore if one part is iffy, a person of wisdom should question the entire subject. Am I being a jerk in my views? Have I condemned anyone?

A good friend of mine used to tell me that people should follow their convictions, because they will walk a straighter mile. At the time (I was very young) I couldn't really understand the full weight of this saying, but i do now, and it is my message here when speaking on my belief on incest. It's my belief, you can believe what you like, but I stick by the first thing that i said on the subject.

I'd rather choke down a barrel of vomit than sleep with a relative. I even had the chance to be with a 4th generation cousin, who happens to be a very beautiful woman, Half German Caucasian, and Black, but to me it was wrong. It's just my convictions.

Originally posted by Stoic
Sleeping with any member of your family is incest, am I correct?

Yep.

Originally posted by Stoic
If so and a person lives by the old slogan that incest is best, then sleeping with your parents would be just fine, and as such if a person feels fine with it, then nothing is wrong, but if a person feels that the act of sleeping with their parents is wrong, then they would need to question the entire act. if not, it would be fairly hypocritical.

This feels like only part of a thought got through the keyboard. It's a tautology that a person who feels its wrong to have sex with a parent feels that its wrong to have sex with a parent and (presumably) wouldn't have sex with a parent in the first place.

Originally posted by Stoic
This goes beyond a feeling, because I would never live my life based on how I felt about everything. To know what is right and what is wrong is based on convictions.

Your convictions are feelings, just ones you're very certain of.

Originally posted by Stoic
So I pose the same question to you, would you be able to sleep with your parents? if so wold it be right or wrong to you? I know several people who have slept with cousins, but when asked if they would sleep with their parents, I never heard any of them say yes to it. Therefore if one part is iffy, a person of wisdom should question the entire subject.

Having sex with a cousin is not the same thing as having sex with a parent simply because we classify both as incest.

Similarly a chihuahua is not the same thing as a great dane simply because we classify both as dogs. If I dislike great danes that doesn't mean I have to question whether I like dogs or not, especially if I already know that I like chihuahuas.

A person of wisdom carries through on critical thinking rather than just sort of mentioning it.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'd rather choke down a barrel of vomit than sleep with a relative. I even had the chance to be with a 4th generation cousin, who happens to be a very beautiful woman, Half German Caucasian, and Black, but to me it was wrong. It's just my convictions.

But the thread is about morality not personal convictions ("is it wrong" not "does is sound icky to you"😉. Hence the confusion.

The problem is, that there are people who sleep with their parents, and even have children with them, and would go as far as to defend their relationship. One person may believe that it is morally fine while another (me) would think that it is morally wrong. I'll be sure to check myself to make sure that it isn't just icky, but I'm pretty sure that once i do, the barrel of repulsive matter will still be my choice over sleeping with a family member. I feel the same about sleeping with my sisters btw.

Anyways, I won't continue to spam up the thread.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'll be sure to check myself to make sure that it isn't just icky, but I'm pretty sure that once i do, the barrel of repulsive matter will still be my choice over sleeping with a family member. I feel the same about sleeping with my sisters btw.

And?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And?

Well you did mention that there was some sort of difference between sleeping with a parent vs sleeping with a sibling vs sleeping with a cousin, and I'm saying that as far as I'm concerned, all of those options are repulsive in my mind.

I truly believe that there has to be a cut off on who is proper and improper to sleep with, or at that matter what people sleep with. Without a conscience or moral boundaries being set, people would go wild and it would be common to witness acts such as, incest, rape, murder, bestiality and many other deviant practices.

If right and wrong, law and order, are just figments of the imagination and not worth following then this world would likely be a far worse, and I doubt that you would want to live in it.

So it comes down to determining what is right in terms of morality and what isn't, and as I stated earlier, I believe that incest is wrong, and although I may accidentally sleep with a family member because it so happened that we met in a bar before being introduced (situational), but once I found out what happened I have two choices. Stay with this person or leave. Either choice could be right.

Now let's go to the extreme, let's say that I was an orphan, and never met my biological parents, but while at a bar, I begin speaking to an older woman, who happens to be my biological mother. Things become things, and I take her home and sleep with her. When I eventually find out that she is my biological mother, I am still faced with two choices.

Another example. let's pretend that I was sexually attracted to my mother (the thought is repulsive btw) and things became things and I slept with her, I know deep down inside that it is wrong, should I continue to have such an affair? No.

The same question except with a cousin. The answer would still be that I was wrong for doing so when there are multitudes of women on the face of the earth.

It's not that it is physically wrong, because if it were, something detrimental would likely occur. Therefore it is psychological. Look this whole thing is a very deep hole that I'd prefer not to get into any longer. You still never gave your opinion on the subject, so I see no reason to continue ranting about something that I think is wrong.

Why do I think that it is wrong? Like I said before, someone may be fine with incest up to sleeping with a parent, but to draw a line in the sand on sleeping with a parent as opposed to a cousin in my opinion is being hypocritical. if your cousin is attractive, and you parent is attractive, why is one right, while the other is wrong? That's just one way to determine that incest is wrong in my opinion.

Sleeping with cousins is not incest if I am not mistaken, only with close relations like sisters, fathers etc.

Also I understand why Bardock pointed out homosexuality, what your saying falls into this field as well, a straight guy would feel sickened or wrong in bed with another male, just like people would feel sickened with their parents in bed with them. On the flip side, homosexuality and indeed, incest is stll present and some people agree with it.

Also sleeping with one or not the other is personal preferance, as I said this is not a basic question of what you find right or wrong. Being gay does not mean you would sleep with a 90 year old man if you were just 15 for example, people have different views on the subject, its not a cut and dry idea of simply saying "well one person is family, therefore all members of the family are the same".

And to all your examples, if you found out later that you had slept with a relative, suddenly thinking its wrong is just you going back on your natural feelings and is a lie against yourself just because society may have tought you to look badly on relative sex, if youve not known their a relative and they were some lost sister or cousin or whatever, and you slept with them, suddenly leaving on social grounds is poor, especially if you upset her in the progress. Also, what if you had got her pregnant and she gave birth to a perfectly fine baby, would you be disgusted and put it up for adoption and then leave? just because "incest" has been labeled wrong in your mind?

Sleeping with a cousin is incest.

Yes I would leave her.

No the child would not be offered up for adoption.

Just the way I feel, and think. No one has to agree with me.

Originally posted by Stoic
Sleeping with a cousin is incest.

Yes I would leave her.

No the child would not be offered up for adoption.

Just the way I feel, and think. No one has to agree with me.

From wiki;

Marriages and sexual relationships between cousins are viewed differently in many cultures and may or may not be seen as incest. In many countries, marriage between cousins is legal, whereas some follow a more restrictive doctrine and prohibit such marriages as incestuous, depending on the degree of the relationship

So it depends where you are.

Originally posted by Stoic
A man that sleeps with a woman is most certainly right, if commitment is attached to it.

What I said had very little to do with what you replied. I meant that if incest is right, then sleeping with your parents is equally correct. Could you sleep with your mother, and not see something wrong with it? Or if you are a person that sleeps solely with same sex partners could you sleep with your father, and feel that it was right? Would you feel any form of conviction to the act? I never condemned homosexuality, if you felt that I did, I'm telling you that I did not. My message was basically this, if any part of the whole is wrong, you need to question the entire thing, because you can't or shouldn't suddenly feel to justify one part, while spitting at the other. You understand?

I extended your logic to homosexual attraction. If your argument works for incest, why would it not work for any other form of sexual action? The point is that your taste is not the same as everyone else's, and some people won't feel anything wrong with having sex with their cousins or parents or siblings, and the fact that they don't find it wrong makes the act no more right or wrong than you feeling it is.

As I said, Stoic seems to have most of his views puppeteered for him because it seems he says "disgusting" to incest which is socially taboo but he says "I have nothing against homosexuality" which he says is not wrong but which disgusts others at the very thought, difference is, homosexuality is generally accepted now.

Originally posted by Burning thought
From wiki;

So it depends where you are.

I won't downplay wiki, but I've been told by many a Professor not to place too much stock in those sites.

I decided not to get involved in a relationship with a cousin, even though the bloodlines are thin as water. She's a 4th generation cousin, hardly even family, but I thought long and hard about it, and realized how much could go wrong.

What if we broke up? I grew up with her uncle. How weird would the rest of the family view my relationship? What if I was her Pooh Bear, in terms of her growing out of the novelty of her crush on me?
Even to this day, her grandparents of all people have asked me why don't I consider it.

I guess if I think long and hard about it, that in certain cases incest may not be so bad, in general not many things are purely black and white, but some are.

Wiki is a good a source as any imo for random questions such as this though, also if you look into the science behind it, theres no more chance in biological problems with cousin relations (assuming you even wanted a child) than in women over the age of 40 apprently. The chance is also so low (2% extra than the 2% all births have apprently) that the risk is little.

Emotions are emotions, nobody should stop a relationship just because the family may view it as strange or if anyone else, other than the pair in the relationship think its strange.

Also as I said, its not incest if you live in certain parts of America, in Europe and concerning First cousins in the Uk its perfectly fine law wise and is not considered incest. More importantly though, if you had real feelings for someone and all they were was a cousin who concented to your feelings then all youve got in your way is social views from some people which gay people have fought against for years and have succeeded to a good degree imo. Some of the best respected people in history have had relations with first cousins and furthet generations.

Originally posted by Burning thought
(2% extra than the 2% all births have apprently)

2% extra?

do you mean it is 2% vs 4% or 2% vs 2.04%?

because in the 2 v 2.04, you probably have a point... In the 2 vs 4, you don't. 2% vs 4% is actually double the risk, or in fact, a 100% extra risk.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Wiki is a good a source as any imo for random questions such as this though, also if you look into the science behind it, theres no more chance in biological problems with cousin relations (assuming you even wanted a child) than in women over the age of 40 apprently. The chance is also so low (2% extra than the 2% all births have apprently) that the risk is little.

Emotions are emotions, nobody should stop a relationship just because the family may view it as strange or if anyone else, other than the pair in the relationship think its strange.

Also as I said, its not incest if you live in certain parts of America, in Europe and concerning First cousins in the Uk its perfectly fine law wise and is not considered incest. More importantly though, if you had real feelings for someone and all they were was a cousin who concented to your feelings then all youve got in your way is social views from some people which gay people have fought against for years and have succeeded to a good degree imo. Some of the best respected people in history have had relations with first cousins and furthet generations.

Well then maybe it's not worng. Hey I snook up on the red dragon shot him in the back of the head, and he fell off of the tower, and died. 10,000 souls yay!

Originally posted by Stoic
Well then maybe it's not worng. Hey I snook up on the red dragon shot him in the back of the head, and he fell off of the tower, and died. 10,000 souls yay!

lol I thought you would kill it eventually.

Originally posted by inimalist
2% extra?

do you mean it is 2% vs 4% or 2% vs 2.04%?

because in the 2 v 2.04, you probably have a point... In the 2 vs 4, you don't. 2% vs 4% is actually double the risk, or in fact, a 100% extra risk.

I dont know for sure since I just read it over, didnt look into the science too deeply, i think it was 4% chance of a 40 year old women, or a pair of cousins to give birth to a child with some problem vs the average 2% chance.

if they both are over the age of 21...I don't see why not

21?! Silly Americans.

I would say incest is wrong. I am surprised to see so many people defending it, honestly.

Aside from a religious take on it, could that just be because of social upbringing? Maybe. But I don't think just because something is ingrained into our society means we should seek to go the other way. Sometimes things are taught and implemented into society for a reason.

For one thing, there is the genetic problems that are more likely to occur in children born of incest. Which, if I'm not mistaken, get's more and more likely the more it is done down the line. Even if the chance is fairly low from the start (It's not that low actually, according to wiki a study found 20 out of 29 children born from incest relationships had birth defects.), where would the cutoff point be? Do we regulate how many generations incest is allowed? I know your family is big on inter family relations, but your quota for incest generations is up and you can't marry each other? That get's complicated and messy. If you're going to stop incestuous relations at any point, you should simply stop it all together.

There's also the potential psychological damage incest can create.

As for punishment. That's a tough one. I don't think anything violent should be done to them. Jail seems the better option, though probably not for a very long time. I think it's more like punishing suicide. It would be pretty hard to actually place a viable punishment on suicide. But having one is more sending the message that "we do not support this".

That's my take on it anyway.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't think just because something is ingrained into our society means we should seek to go the other way.

Good thing that's a pure strawman then.

Originally posted by TacDavey
For one thing, there is the genetic problems that are more likely to occur in children born of incest.

Who says they're having children, though?

Originally posted by TacDavey
There's also the potential psychological damage incest can create.

Between adults? I imagine there might be some family relationship drama, that's about it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Between consenting adults? But having one is more sending the message that "we do not support this".

You can also send that message simply from people making a face when someone mentions incest.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know for sure since I just read it over, didnt look into the science too deeply, i think it was 4% chance of a 40 year old women, or a pair of cousins to give birth to a child with some problem vs the average 2% chance.

no, totally, and I'm not accusing you of manipulating numbers or whatever, it is just easy to present figures and percentages in a way that makes things seem different than they are.

2% is 1 in 50, whereas 4% is 1 in 25. That change is massive, no? If you found out that eating muffins raised your risk of cancer from 2% to 4%, it doesn't sound that dangerous (only raised by an additional 2%!), but when you describe muffins as raising your cancer risk from 1 in 50 to 1 in 25, it seems far more ominous. This goes both ways too, something that goes from .25% (1 in 400) to 1% (1 in 100) is still highly unlikely, but you could describe it as a 400% increase, which makes it seem huge (though, of course, 1 in 400 to 1 in 100 is a huge increase, the absolute values are still very low). lol, boy do I love numbers....

interesting about women over 40 though, do you have a source? I'd like to look into it