Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
Your typical response.God is supposed to be all-knowing, knows all that is, was, and will be so he all ready knows what you will do with every possible choice that you will ever make in your entire lifetime. We as humans do not know, we have the choice but God would already know what we would have chosen before we did, if he doesn’t than he is not all-knowing and timeless.
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Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I did.
No, you side-stepped it and the others.
Originally posted by Robtard
If you were to build a machine and you knew with 100% certainty before the build, during the build and after the build, that the machine you created would kill people, regardless that killing wasn't why you created it, how can you not be at fault for those deaths?Poor analogy, a parent/human does not have foresight that his/her child will become a killer with 100% certainty. Do you think Hitler's mother knew at birth what her child would do 35+ years from then?
So, care to answer the question or keep dancing around it?
Originally posted by Robtard
My logis is wrong? If you were to build a machine and you knew with 100% certainty before the build, during the build and after the build, that the machine you created would kill people, regardless that killing wasn't why you created it, how can you not be at fault for those deaths?Poor analogy, a parent/human does not have foresight that his/her child will become a killer with 100% certainty. Do you think Hitler's mother knew at birth what her child would do 35+ years from then?
So, care to answer the question or keep dancing around it?
I haven't danced around anything. Your logic is flawed. You cannot use human law to relate to God in that way. God's laws transcend human law. A machine does not have a free will.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I haven't danced around anything. Your logic is flawed. You cannot use human law to relate to God in that way. God's laws transcend human law. A machine does not have a free will.
...and neither did Eve, if before, during and after her creation, God knew with 100% certainty that she would disobey and eat the fruit. How could she choose to not eat the fruit if she was destined to eat it even before her creation?
Originally posted by Robtard
...and neither did Eve, if before, during and after her creation, God knew with 100% certainty that she would disobey and eat the fruit. How could she choose to not eat the fruit if she was destined to eat it even before her creation?
Do you understand what free will is? It is not dependent on what someone else knows, it is based on what you choose or do not choose to do. Eve was not destined to eat from that Tree; in fact, she was forbidden from eating from that Tree.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Do you understand what free will is? It is not dependent on what someone else knows, it is based on what you choose or do not choose to do. Eve was not destined to eat from that Tree; in fact, she was forbidden from eating from that Tree.
Side-step.... before, during and after her creation, God knew with 100% certainty that she would disobey "his" command and eat the fruit, yes or no?
Yes = Means she was destined to eat the fruit/disobey, there was no other choice.
No = Means God created her not knowing what she would choose, therefore he is fautless in the action, but "he" has limits.
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If you were to build a time machine and show Hitler's mother what her son would eventually do and she didn't at least take steps and measures to change his views as a boy of Jews, gays, gypsies, communist etc., would you not hold her accountable, at least in apart for his crimes?
Keep in mind: She had the knowledge beforehand; she had the means to change him, or at least attempt to the best of her ability.
Originally posted by Robtard
Side-step.... before, during and after her creation, [B]God knew with 100% certainty that she would disobey "his" command and eat the fruit, yes or no?Yes = Means she was destined to eat the fruit/disobey, there was no other choice.
No = Means God created her not knowing what she would choose, therefore he is fautless in the action, but "he" has limits.
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If you were to build a time machine and show Hitler's mother what her son would eventually do and she didn't at least take steps and measures to change his views as a boy of Jews, gays, gypsies, communist etc., would you not hold her accountable, at least in apart for his crimes?
Keep in mind: She had the knowledge beforehand; she had the means to change him, or at least attempt to the best of her ability. [/B]
Yes does not mean that Eve was "destined" to eat the fruit/disobey (why can't you understand this?). God's foreknowledge is irrelevant and immaterial as far as Eve was concerned because she did not know what she was going to do up until the day she was deceived by the devil, and chose to disobey God. No matter how you interpret the events choice is always the most important factor. If Eve didn't have a choice about disobeying God then God would never have told Adam (who probably told Eve) not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil because they wouldn't have had a choice. You cannot see the error in your train of thought? God would not have told Adam not to eat if he didn't have a choice. The fact that God told Adam not to eat shows that Adam had a choice (he could eat or not eat).
Here is something I need to disabuse your mind of: God created Adam and Eve with a free will. This means that they could freely choose to do or not do something (freely). Adam and Eve were not omniscient (i.e. they did not already know that they were going to disobey God until the moment that they actually decided to do so).
Your time machine illustration does not work because a time machine does not have a free will (i.e. it does not have the intrinsic capacity to choose. It does whatever it is programmed to do). But Adam and Eve did have free wills. They could choose freely what they wanted to do.
So, Adam and Eve were created morally innocent (i.e. righteous) before God and they would have remained in that state if they had not sinned volitionally. God created them to do His will but they freely chose to do otherwise. Just as you freely choose to disobey God, they freely chose to disobey God (there is no difference).
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Yes does not mean that Eve was "destined" to eat the fruit/disobey (why can't you understand this?). God's foreknowledge is irrelevant and immaterial as far as Eve was concerned because she did not know what she was going to do up until the day she was deceived by the devil, and chose to disobey God. No matte how you interpret the events choice is always the most important factor. If Eve didn't have a choice about disobeying God then God would never have told Adam (who probably told Eve) not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [B]because they wouldn't have had a choice. You cannot see the error in your train of thought? God would not have told Adam not to eat if he didn't have a choice. The fact that God told Adam not to eat shows that Adam had a choice (he could eat or not eat).Here is something I need to disabuse your mind of: God created Adam and Eve with a free will. This means that they could freely choose to do or not do something (freely). Adam and Eve were not omniscient (i.e. they did not already know that they were going to disobey God until the moment that they actually decided to do so).
Your time machine illustration does not work because a time machine does not have a free will (i.e. it does not have the intrinsic capacity to choose. It does whatever it is programmed to do). But Adam and Eve did have free wills. They could choose freely what they wanted to do.
So, Adam and Eve were created morally innocent (i.e. righteous) before God and they would have remained in that state if they had not sinned volitionally. God created them to do His will but they freely chose to do otherwise. Just as you freely choose to disobey God, they freely chose to disobey God (there is no difference). [/B]
One thing you need to understand, GOD CREATED HER; HE CREATED HER WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT SHE WOULD WITH 100% CERTAINTY DISOBEY HIS COMMAND AND EAT THE FRUIT, therefore, it was Eve's destiny to eat the fruit, there was absolutely NO OTHER WAY it could have turned out if God in "his" omniscience knew what would happen, before it happened, with 100% certainty, ie NO ROOM FOR ERROR.
Nice way to dodge the question... I said "if you" were to build a time machine and "you" told/showed Hitler's mother what would be her son's future, not the time machine itself doing anything, besides taking you back in time. So try again. Answer?
No, they were created with the foreknowledge that they would disobey and sin with 100% certainty. They had no other choice, it was there manifest destiny to sin.
Originally posted by Robtard
One thing you need to understand, GOD CREATED HER; HE CREATED HER WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT SHE WOULD WITH 100% CERTAINTY DISOBEY HIS COMMAND AND EAT THE FRUIT, therefore, it was Eve's destiny to eat the fruit, there was absolutely NO OTHER WAY it could have turned out if God in "his" omniscience knew what would happen, before it happened, with 100% certainty, ie NO ROOM FOR ERROR.Nice way to dodge the question... I said "if you" were to build a time machine and "you" told/showed Hitler's mother what would be her son's future, not the time machine itself doing anything, besides taking you back in time. So try again. Answer?
No, they were created with the foreknowledge that they would disobey and sin with 100% certainty. They had no other choice, it was there manifest destiny to sin.
You are not making any sense. God's foreknowledge does not mean that it was Eve's destiny (I have already explained this).
Show me proof from the Bible that Adam and Eve were created "with the foreknowledge that they would disobey and sin with 100% certainty, that they had no other choice, and that it was their manifest destiny to sin." Hint: it isn't anywhere near the Bible.