Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are not making any sense. [B]God's foreknowledge does not mean that it was Eve's destiny (I have already explained this).Show me proof from the Bible that Adam and Eve were created "with the foreknowledge that they would disobey and sin with 100% certainty, that they had no other choice, and that it was their manifest destiny to sin." Hint: it isn't anywhere near the Bible. [/B]
God created Eve knowing that she would with 100% certainty disobey "his" command and eat the fruit before her creation took place, so in essence, she was created to disobey, there was no other way the scenario could have played out.
See above and previous pages, before, during and after Eve's creation, God knew that Eve would eat the fruit, therefore, from the second she became alive, she was set on the only course possibly; which was to eat the fruit. It was Eve's manifest destiny; God being all knowing and all powerful would know this. Unless of course, God doesn't have omniscient knowledge.
Do you realize how rediculous you sound? You're saying God created them with free will and they were supposed to obey God, but God knew BEFORE he created them that they would fail, yet they still had a choice? Nope.
Originally posted by Robtard
God created Eve knowing that she would with 100% certainty disobey "his" command and eat the fruit before her creation took place, so in essence, she was created to disobey, there was no other way the scenario could have played out.See above and previous pages, before, during and after Eve's creation, God knew that Eve would eat the fruit, therefore, from the second she became alive, she was set on the only course possibly; which was to eat the fruit. It was Eve's manifest destiny; God being all knowing and all powerful would know this. Unless of course, God doesn't have omniscient knowledge.
Do you realize how rediculous you sound? You're saying God created them with free will and they were supposed to obey God, but God knew BEFORE he created them that they would fail, yet they still had a choice? Nope.
"God created Eve knowing that she would with 100% certainty disobey "his" command and eat the fruit before her creation took place, so in essence, she was created to disobey, there was no other way the scenario could have played out."
God knew that Eve would disobey this is true. But your assertion that God created Eve to disobey is what is false. This appears to be a case of semantics. Your semantical interpretation is what is not correct, the way that you word the situation. God did not create Eve to disobey, God created Eve to obey--but she (using her God-given capacity of volition or free will) chose (of her own accord) to disobey God (God had nothing to do with her decision to disobey Him, that was all Eve).
"See above and previous pages, before, during and after Eve's creation, God knew that Eve would eat the fruit, therefore, from the second she became alive, she was set on the only course possibly; which was to eat the fruit. It was Eve's manifest destiny; God being all knowing and all powerful would know this. Unless of course, God doesn't have omniscient knowledge."
Why do you keep harping on what God knew--that is irrelevant because it could not affect Eve's free will. You keep accusing me of dodging your questions but the fact of the matter is you have failed to substantiate your point that it was Eve's destiny to eat the fruit or that she had no other choice. How could you logically come to that conclusion? Eve chose to eat, she was not forced to eat. Eve did not gravitate to the Tree by some unseen force, she went willingly. If you cannot prove that Eve had no choice then we are at an impasse and I will no longer respond to your posts on this subject.
"Do you realize how rediculous you sound? You're saying God created them with free will and they were supposed to obey God, but God knew BEFORE he created them that they [i]would fail, yet they still had a choice? Nope." [/i]
That is exactly what I am saying because it is based on Scripture. All I have asked you to do is prove that Adam and Eve had no choice. You have not demonstrated that you can prove that they had no choice so you keep harping on the fact that God knew what they were going to do as if that is the question. The fact that God already knew what they were going to do is not the question, the issue, or the matter under dispute here. We both agree that God already had foreknowledge. We keep revisiting that point but it is not crux of our dispute. The point where we disagree is where you assert that Eve had no other choice except to disobey. Prove this. Don't bring up God's foreknowledge because it does not fit or factor in to her decision to disobey. Eve chose of her own accord to disobey (do you understand this Robtard?). Eve was in complete control of her powers of choice when she ate (God had nothing to do with her decision). Do you understand this Robtard? Eve decided, Eve chose, Eve ate--it is simple as that. God said don't eat, expressing His will for her. It would have been unfair for God to forbid her to eat if she had no choice. Do you understand this Robtard? God is good, righteous and just and He does not command us to do anything that we are incapable of doing. Do you understand this Robtard?
So, prove that Eve had no other choice--without bringing up God's foreknowledge because it is irrelevant (it hasn't got a thing in the world to do with Eve's power to choose left or right, up or down, inside or out, bad or good, to disobey or to obey, to eat or not eat). If you had said Eve didn’t have a choice because she did not have a free will, so she could only do what she was programmed to do, and she was programmed by God to disobey God and eat from the Tree—then I could agree with you that she had no other alternative because she was just doing what she was programmed by God to do. But you are not saying that. You claim that Eve had no other choice (when she did because she had a free will), that it was her destiny (which it clearly was not because she knew that she was forbidden from eating from the Tree), and that she was created to disobey God (which is obviously untrue because the devil had to deceive her into disobeying God).
Why would the devil have to contradict what God said, lie to Eve, tempt Eve, and ultimately deceive Eve into doing what God (in your false claim) destined, willed, or created for her to do? Your own rationale belies your whole argument.
The fact of the matter is God wanted Eve to obey Him but she chose to disobey. You have yet to refute this.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveWhy would God what Eve to obey when he already knows that she won't? He has already seen the choice that she will make so by him creating her he put her there to disobey. It has now be refuted, unless God is not all-knowing which you have already said he is.
The fact of the matter is God wanted Eve to obey Him but she chose to disobey. You have yet to refute this.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
If Eve [B]did not have a choice then I could see how it would have been her destiny to eat. But the fact is she did have a choice. [/B]
If Eve can choose to do something contrary to what God knows that she will do, then God is not omniscient.
If Eve cannot choose to do something contrary to what God knows that she will do, then Eve does not have free will.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
But if someone is going to do something then they are going to do it, the fact that a being knows everything that is going to happen docent mean that he is the one who is deciding what happens...it was her action, she choose to do it. If she choose not too, he would have known that she didn't.
For an action to be foreknown, it mus be determined.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
But if someone is going to do something then they are going to do it, the fact that a being knows everything that is going to happen docent mean that he is the one who is deciding what happens...it was her action, she choose to do it. If she choose not too, he would have known that she didn't.
👆 👆 👆 👆 👆
This is exactly what I have been trying to convey to Robtard. I have told him over and over again but he refuses to understand this or acknowledge my point. You hit the nail on the head and drove it all the way through the board.
Good job Grand_Moff_Gav!
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
👆 👆 👆 👆 👆This is exactly what I have been trying to convey to Robtard. I have told him over and over again but he refuses to understand this or acknowledge my point. You hit the nail on the head and drove it all the way through the board.
Good job Grand_Moff_Gav!
You fail to see that God as both the creator of Eve and having knowledge that she would fail before, during and after her creation that Eve could not have done anything different, she was created to fail.
If God knew with 100% certainty that she would disobey his command before he created her, why would he make a faulty product and then punish her for doing what God already knew she would do?
Hypothetical question: If your somehow (be it science, magic or divine intervention etc.) knew with 100% certainty that your child would grow up to be th worlds worst serial killer, would you not be, at least in part, guilty of those future deaths your child would cause if you didn't take measures to change him before they happened?
Originally posted by Robtard
You fail to see that God as both the creator of Eve and having knowledge that she would fail before, during and after her creation that Eve could not have done anything different, she was created to fail.If God knew with 100% certainty that she would disobey his command before he created her, why would he make a faulty product and then punish her for doing what God already knew she would do?
Hypothetical question: If your somehow (be it science, magic or divine intervention etc.) knew with 100% certainty that your child would grow up to be th worlds worst serial killer, would you not be, at least in part, guilty of those future deaths your child would cause if you didn't take measures to change him before they happened?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
👆 👆 👆 👆 👆This is exactly what I have been trying to convey to Robtard. I have told him over and over again but he refuses to understand this or acknowledge my point. You hit the nail on the head and drove it all the way through the board.
Good job Grand_Moff_Gav!
Originally posted by Robtard
Thanks for avoiding my question, again. 👆
I have written several posts to you in regard to this subject and you have the gall to accuse me of avoiding your question? Wow. Besides I told you in advance that I wasn't going to respond to this topic anymore because you have repeatedly failed to address my question (again, and you have the gall to point the finger at me).
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"God created Eve knowing that she would with 100% certainty disobey "his" command and eat the fruit before her creation took place, so in essence, she was created to disobey, there was no other way the scenario could have played out."God knew that Eve would disobey this is true. But your assertion that God created Eve to disobey is what is false. This appears to be a case of semantics. Your semantical interpretation is what is not correct, the way that you word the situation. God did not create Eve to disobey, God created Eve to obey--but she (using her God-given capacity of volition or free will) chose (of her own accord) to disobey God (God had nothing to do with her decision to disobey Him, that was all Eve).
"See above and previous pages, before, during and after Eve's creation, God knew that Eve would eat the fruit, therefore, from the second she became alive, she was set on the only course possibly; which was to eat the fruit. It was Eve's manifest destiny; God being all knowing and all powerful would know this. Unless of course, God doesn't have omniscient knowledge."
Why do you keep harping on what God knew--that is irrelevant because it could not affect Eve's free will. You keep accusing me of dodging your questions but the fact of the matter is you have failed to substantiate your point that it was Eve's destiny to eat the fruit or that she had no other choice. How could you logically come to that conclusion? Eve chose to eat, she was not forced to eat. Eve did not gravitate to the Tree by some unseen force, she went willingly. If you cannot prove that Eve had no choice then we are at an impasse and I will no longer respond to your posts on this subject.
"Do you realize how rediculous you sound? You're saying God created them with free will and they were supposed to obey God, but God knew BEFORE he created them that they [i]would fail, yet they still had a choice? Nope." [/i]
That is exactly what I am saying because it is based on Scripture. All I have asked you to do is prove that Adam and Eve had no choice. You have not demonstrated that you can prove that they had no choice so you keep harping on the fact that God knew what they were going to do as if that is the question. The fact that God already knew what they were going to do is not the question, the issue, or the matter under dispute here. We both agree that God already had foreknowledge. We keep revisiting that point but it is not crux of our dispute. The point where we disagree is where you assert that Eve had no other choice except to disobey. Prove this. Don't bring up God's foreknowledge because it does not fit or factor in to her decision to disobey. Eve chose of her own accord to disobey (do you understand this Robtard?). Eve was in complete control of her powers of choice when she ate (God had nothing to do with her decision). Do you understand this Robtard? Eve decided, Eve chose, Eve ate--it is simple as that. God said don't eat, expressing His will for her. It would have been unfair for God to forbid her to eat if she had no choice. Do you understand this Robtard? God is good, righteous and just and He does not command us to do anything that we are incapable of doing. Do you understand this Robtard?
So, prove that Eve had no other choice--without bringing up God's foreknowledge because it is irrelevant (it hasn't got a thing in the world to do with Eve's power to choose left or right, up or down, inside or out, bad or good, to disobey or to obey, to eat or not eat). If you had said Eve didn’t have a choice because she did not have a free will, so she could only do what she was programmed to do, and she was programmed by God to disobey God and eat from the Tree—then I could agree with you that she had no other alternative because she was just doing what she was programmed by God to do. But you are not saying that. You claim that Eve had no other choice (when she did because she had a free will), that it was her destiny (which it clearly was not because she knew that she was forbidden from eating from the Tree), and that she was created to disobey God (which is obviously untrue because the devil had to deceive her into disobeying God).
Why would the devil have to contradict what God said, lie to Eve, tempt Eve, and ultimately deceive Eve into doing what God (in your false claim) destined, willed, or created for her to do? Your own rationale belies your whole argument.
The fact of the matter is God wanted Eve to obey Him but she chose to disobey. You have yet to refute this.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have written [B]several posts to you in regard to this subject and you have the gall to accuse me of avoiding your question? Wow. Besides I told you in advance that I wasn't going to respond to this topic anymore because you have repeatedly failed to address my question (again, and you have the gall to point the finger at me). [/B]
I have repeatedly addressed your question, if GOD KNEW WITH 100% CERTAINTY WHAT EVE WOULD DO BEFORE HE CREATED HER, THEN IT WAS HER MANIFEST DESTINY TO DO EXACTLY THAT, WHICH WAS FAIL TO OBEY. How could she do otherwise if God already knew what she would do before she was created.
[edited]Reagrdless if she had free will and she could have taken a million different choices, that fact that when God created her, God already knew what she would do, means it was her destiny to fail and God would have known this beofre, during and after her creation. Unless, God isn't omnicient. No other way around that.
Now care to answer my hypothetical question, or are you going to dance?
Originally posted by Robtard
Hypothetical question: If you somehow (be it science, magic or divine intervention etc.) knew with 100% certainty that your child would grow up to be th worlds worst serial killer, would you not be, at least in part, guilty of those future deaths your child would cause if you didn't take measures to change him before they happened?
How come Grand_Moff_Gav can understand what I am saying but you cannot Robtard?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
But if someone is going to do something then they are going to do it, the fact that a being knows everything that is going to happen docent mean that he is the one who is deciding what happens...it was her action, she choose to do it. If she choose not too, he would have known that she didn't.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
👆 👆 👆 👆 👆This is exactly what I have been trying to convey to Robtard. I have told him over and over again but he refuses to understand this or acknowledge my point. You hit the nail on the head and drove it all the way through the board.
Good job Grand_Moff_Gav!
Originally posted by Robtard
[b]I have repeatedly addressed your question, if GOD KNEW WITH 100% CERTAINTY WHAT EVE WOULD DO BEFORE HE CREATED HER, THEN IT WAS HER MANIFEST DESTINY TO DO EXACTLY THAT, WHICH WAS FAIL TO OBEY. How could she do otherwise if God already knew what she would do before she was created.Now care to answer my hypothetical question, or are you going to dance? [/B]
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"God created Eve knowing that she would with 100% certainty disobey "his" command and eat the fruit before her creation took place, so in essence, she was created to disobey, there was no other way the scenario could have played out."God knew that Eve would disobey this is true. But your assertion that God created Eve to disobey is what is false. This appears to be a case of semantics. Your semantical interpretation is what is not correct, the way that you word the situation. God did not create Eve to disobey, God created Eve to obey--but she (using her God-given capacity of volition or free will) chose (of her own accord) to disobey God (God had nothing to do with her decision to disobey Him, that was all Eve).
"See above and previous pages, before, during and after Eve's creation, God knew that Eve would eat the fruit, therefore, from the second she became alive, she was set on the only course possibly; which was to eat the fruit. It was Eve's manifest destiny; God being all knowing and all powerful would know this. Unless of course, God doesn't have omniscient knowledge."
Why do you keep harping on what God knew--that is irrelevant because it could not affect Eve's free will. You keep accusing me of dodging your questions but the fact of the matter is you have failed to substantiate your point that it was Eve's destiny to eat the fruit or that she had no other choice. How could you logically come to that conclusion? Eve chose to eat, she was not forced to eat. Eve did not gravitate to the Tree by some unseen force, she went willingly. If you cannot prove that Eve had no choice then we are at an impasse and I will no longer respond to your posts on this subject.
"Do you realize how rediculous you sound? You're saying God created them with free will and they were supposed to obey God, but God knew BEFORE he created them that they [i]would fail, yet they still had a choice? Nope." [/i]
That is exactly what I am saying because it is based on Scripture. All I have asked you to do is prove that Adam and Eve had no choice. You have not demonstrated that you can prove that they had no choice so you keep harping on the fact that God knew what they were going to do as if that is the question. The fact that God already knew what they were going to do is not the question, the issue, or the matter under dispute here. We both agree that God already had foreknowledge. We keep revisiting that point but it is not crux of our dispute. The point where we disagree is where you assert that Eve had no other choice except to disobey. Prove this. Don't bring up God's foreknowledge because it does not fit or factor in to her decision to disobey. Eve chose of her own accord to disobey (do you understand this Robtard?). Eve was in complete control of her powers of choice when she ate (God had nothing to do with her decision). Do you understand this Robtard? Eve decided, Eve chose, Eve ate--it is simple as that. God said don't eat, expressing His will for her. It would have been unfair for God to forbid her to eat if she had no choice. Do you understand this Robtard? God is good, righteous and just and He does not command us to do anything that we are incapable of doing. Do you understand this Robtard?
So, prove that Eve had no other choice--without bringing up God's foreknowledge because it is irrelevant (it hasn't got a thing in the world to do with Eve's power to choose left or right, up or down, inside or out, bad or good, to disobey or to obey, to eat or not eat). If you had said Eve didn’t have a choice because she did not have a free will, so she could only do what she was programmed to do, and she was programmed by God to disobey God and eat from the Tree—then I could agree with you that she had no other alternative because she was just doing what she was programmed by God to do. But you are not saying that. You claim that Eve had no other choice (when she did because she had a free will), that it was her destiny (which it clearly was not because she knew that she was forbidden from eating from the Tree), and that she was created to disobey God (which is obviously untrue because the devil had to deceive her into disobeying God).
Why would the devil have to contradict what God said, lie to Eve, tempt Eve, and ultimately deceive Eve into doing what God (in your false claim) destined, willed, or created for her to do? Your own rationale belies your whole argument.
The fact of the matter is God wanted Eve to obey Him but she chose to disobey. You have yet to refute this.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
How come Grand_Moff_Gav can understand what I am saying but you cannot Robtard?
I see, you avoid my questions, claim I didn't answer yours when I have and then dance. 👆 Nothing new from you.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The fact of the matter is God wanted Eve to obey Him but she chose to disobey. You have yet to refute this.
My answer:
Originally posted by Robtard
Reagrdless if she had free will and she could have taken a million different choices, that fact that when God created her, God already knew what she would do, means it was her destiny to fail and God would have known this before, during and after her creation. Unless, God isn't omnicient. No other way around that.Now care to answer my hypothetical question, or are you going to dance?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You have [B]not proven to me that Adam and Eve had no choice. At least Grand_Moff_Gav can understand what I am saying. [/B]
Originally posted by Robtard
Regardless if she had free will and she could have taken a million different choices, that fact that when God created her, God already knew what she would do, means it was her destiny to fail and God would have known this before, during and after her creation. Unless, God isn't omnicient. No other way around that.Now care to answer my hypothetical question, or are you going to dance?
Originally posted by Robtard
Hypothetical question: If your somehow (be it science, magic or divine intervention etc.) knew with 100% certainty that your child would grow up to be the worlds worst serial killer, would you not be, at least in part, guilty of those future deaths your child would cause if you didn't take measures to change him before they happened?
Originally posted by Robtard
I see, you avoid my questions, claim I didn't answer yours when I have and then dance. 👆 Nothing new from you.My answer:
Why can't you understand that God's foreknowledge is irrelevant? I didn't have to write this many lucid posts explaining this to Grand_Moff_Gav and yet he got it (I apologize if that offends you).