Originally posted by carver9😕 I never said anything about flying across galaxies..I said he's shown reflexes to go along with his flying speed which he has plenty of times. Superman doesn't even need to blitz at light speed to be able to blitz Gokou. Superman has flown through buildings to get stuff and come back without anybody noticing him leaving, he's flown through a boat taking a few guns, and placing cotton in Lois ears withouth them knowing it before his sonic boom hit the ship, he's navigated a ship with Bruce in hand while they were both in super hero suits, changed them both, and got back to the deck of the ship before Lois could turn around because Superman threw his voice to get her to turn around.
Thats the thing, he dont have one combat speed feat thats even comparable to regular dragonball goku as a child. You keep bringing up him flying across galaxy when you honestly need to read a dictionary on the difference between combat speed and fighting speed. He only has a couple of good showings and those showings arent even comparable to anything that goes on in dbz. And again, prove to me that superman can fight/blitz at light speed.You want to know the difference between flash and superman, bricks struggle to hit flash but they dont have such a hard time ripping superman up. Why cant they blitz half of the people that they fight, trust me, they are durable enough to take it unless you basically saying that darksied, titus, and despero cant take a mere blitz.
The ginyu force was extremely fast, flying to fast that they were creating blurs, punching at goku a thousand times in a couple of seconds. Goku just made them look foolish because he was superior. They flew from one side of the planet namek to the other side in seconds to catch up with vegeta.
I agree with this statement but you can take it away because its cannon.
Again, excuses, goku is a comic and he still has not been hit by bricks. Goku holds back but still see bricks in slow motion. Im going to say it like this, if we were to create a circle but its villians that make the circle. The villians are darksied, kalibak, solomon grundy, despero, titus, and equus and you sit frieza in the middle of this circle of people and they go all out punching at him for hours, not one will land a lick. Answer this for me, why is ALL of goku enemies is speedsters but 90% of superman enemies are bricks. I wonder why but I'll let you answer that.
Show me something showing his reflexes moving at light speed. I only have one scan that is worth mentioning of superman and thats the one where he is punching so fast that its creating sonic booms, thats basically it. There is nothing indicating that he can punch or fight the speed of light and the little that you have shown again goku as a child did much better like moving so fast he created after images that was actually moving and fighting. Or how about him moving so fast as a child that he became invisible to the crowd for some minutes, even krillin couldnt see him. Or how about him shooting a kamehameha blast and beating the blast to its destination and all of this is when he was a child. Or I could just bring up 10 people shooting machine gun bullets at him and hes knocking all of them out of the air. The last time that happened to superman superman needed flash help because he couldnt stop the bullets or lets talk about in superman "for tomorrow" comic where he wasnt fast enough to stop bullets from killing these people ending with him saying "sometimes being faster then a speeding bullet isnt fast enough."
either plot device or they struggle to even lay a finger on him. Noone has never went h2h with flash except maybe zoom.
Dc characters havent shown me s*** to make me think that they are superior to marvel in speed. I can name at least 10 beings that travels through space just as easy but that still dont give them goku's combat speed. Vulcan has crossed solar system in days which is still faster then light but goku would rip his spine out.
I can name plenty of times too where dbz was seen by fighters but I can also name hundreds of time when humans was thinking where the hell are they, even superhumans being unable to keep up with them. I can also show something where captain ginyu turns to light because he moved so fast and I can show you goku turning to light because hes moving so fast.
Something that superman has never done, move so fast that the person is wondering where in the hell is he.
I agree with this post but that still dont take away the centuries worth of evidence that superman= a brick. For every one thing that you name for goku I can name 100's for superman.
No idea who Titus is, Darkseid is everything Supermans is plus more, and as for Despro everytime I've seen him fight Superman its usually against the JLA..and Superman gets depowered more in JLA comics just like everybody else on teams.
How do you know how far away they were? And they still aren't anything to speedsters of DC. Gotenks has them beat in speed, and so does Gokou even more in the Buu Saga. They may be able to fight fast but that's about it.
Just because it's canon doesn't make it work. Not that it isn't cool to see Batman doing it though there is a reason stuff is called PIS. Though Superman's speed is less PIS more CIS.
Darkseid would hit him...and Despro would just screw with his mind making him be hit. Those two are bad choices. Sure the rest wouldn't hit Freeza..but it's not like Freeza could hurt Kalibak anyway. Why are most of Flash villains two-bit humans or a telepathic ape? To answer the question...Superman's main power is strength. When people think of Superman its his strength that everybody knows about. Plus imo its much cooler to see Superman in a slugfest which is what he's best at.
Because going faster than his blast makes him fast why? There have also been plenty of times Superman has just casually caught bullets fired from different guns all at once while having a conversation with Batman. Wasn't Gokou blocking bullets him spinning power pole around? Superman has also taken guns from people without them even noticing he has done it. I believe he's done it to a small army before.
I don't read Marvel..Well with the exception of Deadpool, some Hulk, and Wolverine so like I said I don't know much about Marvel's speedsters at least Earth based. Gladiator, and Surfer are speedsters but they're cosmic based. I don't even know who Vulcan is.
Most of the fights in front of humans they see what happens with tiny exceptions that they get bursts of speed. That's the only times humans have wondered what happened. The Z fighters can move faster than they can be seen for short bursts. So can some street levelers. No you can't. Ginyu nor Gokou have ever turned to light by moving so fast. And Superman has moved so fast that he went someplace, and came back without anybody knowing he's moved. That's a bit faster, and he went a lot farther. He's also moved so fast he's taken stuff from a group of people without them knowing.
Yea Superman fights like a brick..It's called CIS. Doesn't mean he hasn't shown he has to fight like a brick. He's got more than just strength going for him.
Originally posted by carver9Except Tien and Nappa punching each other never did anything like that. Also Ginyu tossing people up doesn't equal out of orbit and that was just filler anyway. Superman didn't punch Lobo his hardest, and Lobo was actually shown out of orbit. Superman has punched people to the moon.
I forgot to post to some of your other quotesI think they do since nappa and tien mere swings was causing tornados and creating earthquakes Or how about frieza and goku fight that destroyed moutains. I can also bring up captain ginyu flinching his arm sending people out of orbit but superman had to do his hardest punch to lobo to send him flying out of orbit. I can also bring up goku kicking frieza so hard that he went through one mountain, through earths crust and destroying another small mountain. Or how about goku kicking vegeta through two mountains in there 1st confrontation. Or I can bring up the frieza and goku fight again where there mere punches was creating shockwaves that was seen and felt miles away. That feat alone is more then a 100 tonner. Or there punches being heard everytime they fight. Im referring to the times when they are fighting so fast that they only thing that you hear is BOOM, BOOM.
Name a character that was weaker then goku that hurt him. I can name one for superman, batman with the black rock, dr. poloris, and doctor light.
Your powerlevel has a lot to do with you strength and speed. Frieza was more powerful then goku, thats why he was always a step ahead of him and was shown to be stronger BECAUSE of his power level until goku went super sayain and passed him, we seen what happened then. You truly dont know nothing about dragonball. The more powerful you are, you are much faster, stronger, more durable then you were before unless you honestly think that black hair goku can match his super sayain counterpart in all of those departments.
Look at more dbz, in almost every fight earthquakes and mansoons and cities shake.
but yet when he went all out on doomsday and gave him his hardest punch only some windows shattered. 😆
The z warriors damage the area with strength. It has been shown on too many of occasion. Again tien and nappa fight. Vegeta when he fought that pretty boy dude that can turn into a monster (forgot his name), hell captain ginyu and goku punches was so extreme that boulders was rising around them and the waters in the sea was actually turning into live tornados.
Let me correct this, billions and billions stronger then his kid self.
He could be more durable if you ask me since I have yet to see goku damaged by a space ship blast that had him bleeding, etc.... Or goku suffering a black eye just like the one he had when superman fought kalibak. I have never witnessed goku get his jaw broke either like superman has had on two occasions. I have seen goku bleed from the mouth (what characters hasnt when fighting there equal). I have never seen claws damage goku like despero claws have done and I have never seen goku one shotted or get koed by getting his head slammed into a mountain.
I didn't mean much weaker than Gokou I mean much weaker than the people Superman fights.
You get more powerful, and faster, and more durable, and possibly stronger but the whole DBZ fights aren't about who is stronger just more powerful.
No they don't. Until somebody clashes a blast nothing happens to the surrounding area. Nothing happened during the Vegeta/Gokou fight until the Kamehameha/Galic Gun war. Nothing happened until the Kamehameha/Kamehamha war with Cell and Gohan. The fight between Buu and Gokou did nothing after or before Gokou went ssj3.
😆 The Doomsday/Superman fight were punching so hard that shockwaves were felt all the way to Gotham from Metropolis. That's a bit more than smashing windows.
More like only millions...Gokou doesn't even have a power of a billion..And still doesn't say how much his durability or anything amp with the power.
Except Tien and Nappa punching each other never did anything like that. Also Ginyu tossing people up doesn't equal out of orbit and that was just filler anyway. Superman didn't punch Lobo his hardest, and Lobo was actually shown out of orbit. Superman has punched people to the moon.
The only thing that Im going to say about this is look at the fight again.
I didn't mean much weaker than Gokou I mean much weaker than the people Superman fights.
Thats your opinion, from the impact of the punches that has been displayed in dbz I think that there punches are> superman enemies.
You get more powerful, and faster, and more durable, and possibly stronger but the whole DBZ fights aren't about who is stronger just more powerful.
😆 Now this statement is laughable, to bad that power trick didnt work for trunks when he fought cell. Maybe you need to look at that fight again. Im just going to say it like this, trunks was stronger and more power but it was two things that he was missing and thats why he lost his fight with cell. Remember, it got something to do with vegeta also.
No they don't. Until somebody clashes a blast nothing happens to the surrounding area. Nothing happened during the Vegeta/Gokou fight until the Kamehameha/Galic Gun war. Nothing happened until the Kamehameha/Kamehamha war with Cell and Gohan. The fight between Buu and Gokou did nothing after or before Gokou went ssj3.
Look at every fight again, maybe you'll learn something.
😆 The Doomsday/Superman fight were punching so hard that shockwaves were felt all the way to Gotham from Metropolis. That's a bit more than smashing windows.
Now this is lol, Superman and doomsday fought in one are that entire fight and every human, dog, cat that was out there seen every blow and superman hardest punch shattered some windows.OMG
More like only millions...Gokou doesn't even have a power of a billion..And still doesn't say how much his durability or anything amp with the power.
Black hair goku power alone was in the millions, by the time he fought cell his black hair possessed more power then his super sayain that fought frieza. Super saiyan 2 power levels are in the billions and it dont have to say how much there durability was increased since goku was next to invulnerable as a child. A ax breaking on his head, taking missiles to the chest, taking bullet, taking bites from animals not even feeling it, falling from cloud height landing on his head and bouncing back up and if you have any knowledge of dragonball you'll know that his durability was increased hundred from the dragonball era until his 1st fight with vegeta.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I can show you a movement speed feat of Darkseid flying across the universe. But that is all I got.
So basically its a flying feat, it has nothing to do with his combat. The most impressive combat feat I have seen is when I read him fighting orion and that wasnt be anything to suggest that he if fast enough to tag even krillin.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
During Darkseids first post crisis appearance he moved so fast that superman couldn't see him. That's above Goku's feat. Superman of that era had proven super sonic reflexes. Thats above the mere three times human speed Goku would need to do that.
OMG, I got a question for you (I try not to debate with you, Id rather debate with dark jax or kento), how fast do you think that spiderman is, do you think that he can perform feats beyond a human or do you think that he is peak human?
When you answer that then I want you to compare him to goku when he fought tien, do you think that spiderman can spin around in a circle so fast that he basically disappears and dont appear for minutes? Do you also think that spiderman can create 8 after images that is basically fighting and talking and licking there tongue out?
And lets say if shocker and spiderman was standing side by side, and shocker shot a blast, do you think that spiderman could beat the blast to its destination?
All that I ask basically has something to do with you saying goku has human speed and all of these feats are feats that goku performed as a child.
Stop using people hitting superman as a speed feat, if thats the case gorilla grod has super speed.
By the way during the dragon ball era, tien, yamcha, krillin, and chazuu was running beside a car that was going 250 mph and then they blitzed the car, left it in the dust, so they basically double or trippled that speed and this was in dragonball.
Originally posted by carver9Trunks sacrificed speed for power...Proving strength means nothing because Cell was weaker and still hurt him. Again proving DBZ isn't about strength.
The only thing that Im going to say about this is look at the fight again.Thats your opinion, from the impact of the punches that has been displayed in dbz I think that there punches are> superman enemies.
😆 Now this statement is laughable, to bad that power trick didnt work for trunks when he fought cell. Maybe you need to look at that fight again. Im just going to say it like this, trunks was stronger and more power but it was two things that he was missing and thats why he lost his fight with cell. Remember, it got something to do with vegeta also.
Look at every fight again, maybe you'll learn something.
Now this is lol, Superman and doomsday fought in one are that entire fight and every human, dog, cat that was out there seen every blow and superman hardest punch shattered some windows.OMG
Black hair goku power alone was in the millions, by the time he fought cell his black hair possessed more power then his super sayain that fought frieza. Super saiyan 2 power levels are in the billions and it dont have to say how much there durability was increased since goku was next to invulnerable as a child. A ax breaking on his head, taking missiles to the chest, taking bullet, taking bites from animals not even feeling it, falling from cloud height landing on his head and bouncing back up and if you have any knowledge of dragonball you'll know that his durability was increased hundred from the dragonball era until his 1st fight with vegeta.
DBZ fights haven't ever shown them to hurt the surrounding area by just punching each other.
What does them staying in place and punching each other have to do with anything? Just because they were seen because they just stood there doesn't mean anything about the power they used. And the so called shattering windows punches you like to talk about were felt all the way in Gotham.
Prove he got billions of times more powerful. Prove his durabilty is a hundred times stronger than it was as a kid? That should be easy to do.
Originally posted by carver9Yeah pretty much. Although original Darkseid was faster than PC Superman, which says alot. Current DS, I do not know.
So basically its a flying feat, it has nothing to do with his combat. The most impressive combat feat I have seen is when I read him fighting orion and that wasnt be anything to suggest that he if fast enough to tag even krillin.
Trunks sacrificed speed for power...Proving strength means nothing because Cell was weaker and still hurt him. Again proving DBZ isn't about strength.
True statement, cell was weaker and still stood up (there was nothing stated or shown that he hurt trunks, just over powered him) to him and which one is better, having super speed or having super strength. How can you beat a opponent you cant touch. Did you hear what goku said to gohun when they were in the hyperbolic time chamber, that would explain all of that to you.
DBZ fights haven't ever shown them to hurt the surrounding area by just punching each other.
You might need to look at those fights again. The goku and frieza physical fight alone would level a city in minutes.
What does them staying in place and punching each other have to do with anything?
It has a lot to do with it. Theres no speed, no power behind the punches (sending the opponent flying) and was minimum damage caused.
Just because they were seen because they just stood there doesn't mean anything about the power they used.
It was the fact that they were seen, every punch was seen all the way down to the last one.
And the so called shattering windows punches you like to talk about were felt all the way in Gotham.
Show me the scan saying this.
Prove he got billions of times more powerful. Prove his durabilty is a hundred times stronger than it was as a kid? That should be easy to do.
I can prove that easily, goku 1st encounter with the doedun ray almost killed him, he got hit with a stronger doedun ray from tien and bounced back up like nothing happened. I can prove it yet again. Goku got hit in the head with a axe and felt it but goku got stabbed in the back by general tou and didnt even acknowledge it, basically he didnt feel it. I can prove it some more. Goku 1st fight with tien, he fell from cloud height unto his head and took a while to get up and then when he got up he was hurt but the same thing happened again to goku, falling from cloud height and he got up laughing when junior did it. The sad thing is when he fell to the pavement and busted his head, picollo pressed his attack with blast and goku still got up laughing. How about this one, goku got hit by one of frieza matter destroying blast and yelled in pain but frieza hit a super saiyan goku with the same blast and it had no affect on him or damage. That was very easy.
Originally posted by carver9Because nobody goes flying then the punches aren't strong? And I wasn't using that to reference speed..Just how much power he had before his death. He was much stronger after his death. He's also faster now.
True statement, cell was weaker and still stood up (there was nothing stated or shown that he hurt trunks, just over powered him) to him and which one is better, having super speed or having super strength. How can you beat a opponent you cant touch. Did you hear what goku said to gohun when they were in the hyperbolic time chamber, that would explain all of that to you.You might need to look at those fights again. The goku and frieza physical fight alone would level a city in minutes.
It has a lot to do with it. Theres no speed, no power behind the punches (sending the opponent flying) and was minimum damage caused.
It was the fact that they were seen, every punch was seen all the way down to the last one.
Show me the scan saying this.
I can prove that easily, goku 1st encounter with the doedun ray almost killed him, he got hit with a stronger doedun ray from tien and bounced back up like nothing happened. I can prove it yet again. Goku got hit in the head with a axe and felt it but goku got stabbed in the back by general tou and didnt even acknowledge it, basically he didnt feel it. I can prove it some more. Goku 1st fight with tien, he fell from cloud height unto his head and took a while to get up and then when he got up he was hurt but the same thing happened again to goku, falling from cloud height and he got up laughing when junior did it. The sad thing is when he fell to the pavement and busted his head, picollo pressed his attack with blast and goku still got up laughing. How about this one, goku got hit by one of frieza matter destroying blast and yelled in pain but frieza hit a super saiyan goku with the same blast and it had no affect on him or damage. That was very easy.
I don't have DOS anymore. Well I do but it's a few hundred miles away with my cousins. Course wouldn't really help if I had it. I don't have a scanner. Yes I know excuses but sorry I don't have scans of anything except Naruto and DB and thats only if I'm on my computer.
What about the training in a 100x's earth gravity..Why do you think I said hundred and that it would be easy to prove he's more durable. Though none of it proves he's a billion times more powerful at all.
Originally posted by Kento
Because nobody goes flying then the punches aren't strong? And I wasn't using that to reference speed..Just how much power he had before his death. He was much stronger after his death. He's also faster now.I don't have DOS anymore. Well I do but it's a few hundred miles away with my cousins. Course wouldn't really help if I had it. I don't have a scanner. Yes I know excuses but sorry I don't have scans of anything except Naruto and DB and thats only if I'm on my computer.
What about the training in a 100x's earth gravity..Why do you think I said hundred and that it would be easy to prove he's more durable. Though none of it proves he's a billion times more powerful at all.
I dont have anything to say about this post. You didnt give me anything to comment on.
I was going to answer you questions, however I've realised this argument between us is pointless our opinions differ so greatly. I can't quite fathom the logic behind your most wild assertion and view the Z fighters been at a less powerful level than you do.
The assertion that anyone twho argues against DBZ must not understand it is a flawed one. After all it is a shonen manage and aimed at young boys, making it rather easy to grasp.
I have in the past argued for Goku, a lot. Using a remarkably smiler argument to you. Hyperbole and power level increase for Goku and low showings and only high flight speed for Superman.
Still the opposing arguments were good, so I said fair enough and started reading some Superman comics to see what all the fuss was about. So I'm a DBZ fan first Superman second.
You may not like my arguing style but I don't like yours, it reminds me too much of how I used to argue. I imagine you see some bias in me. I must love Superman so much I can't imagine him loosing. I'd give Thanos, the silver surfer, Despero, etc all majorities over him.
Then maybe I just hate Goku? Those damn anime characters with their big eyes and green hair! Wait, then why do I have a huge stack of DBZ fighting games? Why did I watch both the American and the British dubs of the movies (track them down they're comedy gold). Why have I kept up with all the news for the new movie?
As much as you rag on Endless Mike, the man is a huge DBZ fan with a vast well of knowledge. It doesn't do your side any favours to claim the opposite side has no knowledge.
Maybe the people who disagree with you don't hate DBZ, maybe they do understand the deep subtext that makes up shonen anime. Could be they just have interpreted it in a different way to you?
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
I was going to answer you questions, however I've realised this argument between us is pointless our opinions differ so greatly. I can't quite fathom the logic behind your most wild assertion and view the Z fighters been at a less powerful level than you do.The assertion that anyone twho argues against DBZ must not understand it is a flawed one. After all it is a shonen manage and aimed at young boys, making it rather easy to grasp.
I have in the past argued for Goku, a lot. Using a remarkably smiler argument to you. Hyperbole and power level increase for Goku and low showings and only high flight speed for Superman.
Still the opposing arguments were good, so I said fair enough and started reading some Superman comics to see what all the fuss was about. So I'm a DBZ fan first Superman second.
You may not like my arguing style but I don't like yours, it reminds me too much of how I used to argue. I imagine you see some bias in me. I must love Superman so much I can't imagine him loosing. I'd give Thanos, the silver surfer, Despero, etc all majorities over him.
Then maybe I just hate Goku? Those damn anime characters with their big eyes and green hair! Wait, then why do I have a huge stack of DBZ fighting games? Why did I watch both the American and the British dubs of the movies (track them down they're comedy gold). Why have I kept up with all the news for the new movie?
As much as you rag on Endless Mike, the man is a huge DBZ fan with a vast well of knowledge. It doesn't do your side any favours to claim the opposite side has no knowledge.
Maybe the people who disagree with you don't hate DBZ, maybe they do understand the deep subtext that makes up shonen anime. Could be they just have interpreted it in a different way to you?
The only thing that I said to you is that I prefer debating with kento and dark jax. I understand that you feel as if superman could beat goku but until I see superman fight in a manner that goku could then maybe I would change my view. By the way Im in my 20's. I love goku but I love superman better, thats why I have so much knowledge about the character, thats why I call out things that happen in his comics, its because I read him but that still dont make me think that he can beat everyone.
His speed is overrated, his strength is overrated, he has yet to show that he can destroy a planet. His only feat of destroying something large was a moon and he had to fly through that to do it. He got one shotted by konvikt, one shotted by despero, one shotted by titus, one shotted twice by captain marvel, got his jaw broken by zod, got koed by doctor light, got manhandled by doctor poloris, twice, got one shotted by darkseid, got blood knocked from his mouth by a amped batman, got ripped up by equus, I can keep going. Got koed by kalibak, got temporarily knocked out by grog, He has no combat speed feats even equaling that of goku. Was temporarily knocked out by a blast that came from a imperex probe.
Superman is powerful but he just dont pack enough power to beat goku. Hes a brick and he is almost one dimensional. Again like I asked before, show me one combat speed feat, him FIGHTING someone that rivals that of goku when he fought tien in the last tournament. Youll never find it.
Personally, I don't see the difference in a person that can punch the world and it explodes vs a person who can do the same with a ball/wave of energy shot from their hands. The same result, only difference is the execution.
You'd think that would mean they're evenly matched as far as how much damage they can put out...