ANIME Fighters VS AMERICAN Superheros

Started by StyleTime173 pages
StyleTime Senior Member

Originally posted by jimBOFH
I disagree about the portrayal of characters in DBZ. Vegeta is portrayed as planet busting from his very first appearance in the anime (destroys Arlia, and when fighting Goku for first time warns him that if he dodges the Galick Gun, he can say goodbye to his planet). The manga is more equivocal, but nonetheless by the end of the Namek saga all the major fighters are portrayed as very much capable of destroying a planet as a tactic of last resort.

I hate having to split posts up like this, but several different topics have formed from this discussion so I have no choice.

A single portrayal, even if it is his first appearance, does not constitute consistency. Again, I iterate that he's never shown at this level again and is consistently below that. Off the top of my head, he "goes all out" against Recoom and displays even less than continent busting power. He goes all out against Frieza and does nothing more than create a dazzling light show in the sky. Same story with Majin Vegeta vs Goku. The first two are life and death situations on a planet Vegeta has no real attachment to. Where was all this power then? It's things like these that I'm talking about. I don't see how you can you jump to sun destroying when the series repeatedly presents material like this.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
Also, I assumed linearity in Vegeta's strength increase, not multiplication. If it had been multiplication it would have been 3^17 = 129 million. I thought that sounded ridiculous, though you never know with DBZ. So yeah, due to DBZ wacky logic I can't prove it, but my estimates were, I thought, the most likely scenarios.

Actually, you said 50 times his strength....which is multiplication. It's not that big an issue, but it is multiplication.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I wouldn't call the Final Flash sequence an outlier, because it's not like Vegeta uses the Final Flash at other times to a different effect. As an attack it might be, compared to the other attacks, but I was only discussing that specific attack and not a standard Ki blast.

I mean in damage. The only real difference between a regular ki blast and a "special move" is the fact that the character screams the name beforehand honestly.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
With regards to the crater, and any other post-Namek example of an attack that doesn't destroy the earth- the important distinction here is between "doesn't" and "can't"- Vegeta does NOT want to blow up the Earth. That would be somewhat counter-productive. Furthermore, he DOES want to ensure that he blasts Buu with as much energy as possible. So, the attack is an extremely intense one with small radius. There is a similar idea behind all the energy attacks- Goku's Kamehameha has an effective power level 3 times his own against Raditz because he concentrates all his energy into a small area, rather than spread across his body.

It's not a matter of desire comrade. He self destructed. All of his energy was released simultaneously. If he had anything above planet destroying capapilities, he would have destroyed the planet. It is that simple. This concept about control of which you speak is applicable in some situations, but most assuredly not this one.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
To use an analogy, this is like saying that because the U.S. army use precision-smart bombs, that they CAN'T turn the Middle East into a glass crater- they can, but there are obvious reasons that they don't.

It's actually quite different. Vegeta used all of his energy at once. If the U.S. detonated all of its bombs simultaneously and the middle east survived, then we would say that this country is incapable of destroying the middle east. Similarly, we would say Vegeta is incapable of destroying Earth by the same point.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
The series IS reasonably congruent with the multiplication theory, imo- not exactly, but in terms of ballpark figures. Consider- Pui Pui was beaten by Vegeta in his natural state effortlessly, and he's supposed to be one of the strongest fighters in the Universe. The Supreme Kai's surprise at Goku and Vegeta's strength is evident, and not just because they're Saiyans rather than humans. Vegeta is also clearly far stronger than Dabura is- Vegeta states this watching Gohan fight, and unlike Dabura Vegeta's strength and speed are comparable or superior to Buu (two-fingered blast goes straight through Buu's defenses, though Buu just regenerates any damage.)

I have to ask for clarification here. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Onto the Death Note stuff- I think it requires a level of sentience and self-awareness in the victim that animals don't have- remember, it's not good enough to have any name, it has be their real name. So I think it should work on sentient, humanoid aliens- they have self awareness, and therefore names. It has to be the victim that recognises the name as "theirs", not the killer, iirc. So yeah, it's not so much about the name being given as the victim identifying with it.

Self-awareness does not beget a name my friend. It's fine if you want to believe it won't work on an animal. However, recognize that there's not really anything saying you can't. A named animal still meets the criteria set by the death note, so there is at least evidence that you can kill an animal using the note.

I think you realize that you're presenting mostly theory with our discussion on Vegeta, which is fine, but I'm not sure of your purpose. Are you actually trying to convince us he can destroy the sun, or are you just discussing out of curiosity? I don't mean that insultingly. Again, it's not a horribly flawed theory, it just doesn't sync with DBZ's rediculous logic.

jimBOFH Senior Member

Originally posted by StyleTime
I hate having to split posts up like this, but several different topics have formed from this discussion so I have no choice.

A single portrayal, even if it is his first appearance, does not constitute consistency. Again, I iterate that he's never shown at this level again and is consistently below that. Off the top of my head, he "goes all out" against Recoom and displays even less than continent busting power. He goes all out against Frieza and does nothing more than create a dazzling light show in the sky. Same story with Majin Vegeta vs Goku. The first two are life and death situations on a planet Vegeta has no real attachment to. Where was all this power then? It's things like these that I'm talking about. I don't see how you can you jump to sun destroying when the series repeatedly presents material like this.


See, this is where we fundamentally disagree on the portrayal. You've raised an example of Vegeta "going all out against an opponent" in which he doesn't destroy a planet, and interpreted that as him being unable to destroy the planet. I interpret that quite differently- Vegeta doesn't destroy the planet because he doesn't want to, for several reasons. Firstly, he can't survive in space, so destroying the planet he's on while in a fight with someone stronger than he is would be suicide. Secondly, even if he did somehow survive the Namekian Dragonballs would be lost.
Also, going all out in a fight doesn't mean outputting all his energy at once- every time that someone has destroyed a planet up until the end of the Namek Saga they've had time to charge an attack- even Frieza's isn't totally casual.
As for Vegeta having no attachment to Earth- not true. Part of him hates the fact that he does, which is why he submitted to Babidi, but by the time his fight with Goku is over it's apparent that he can't deny his feelings for his family and friends (e.g. feels responsible for Gohan's death). Not to mention that destroying the planet would kill him, again.
Originally posted by StyleTime

Actually, you said 50 times his strength....which is multiplication. It's not that big an issue, but it is multiplication.

I see what you mean, but the increase is additional each time. Each time you add a constant, which is equal to 3 times Vegeta's strength in the Imperfect Cell Saga. As opposed to multiplying Vegeta's strength each time. So the end result is a multiplication of his original strength, as it would have been if I had assumed a multiplication of his strength each time, but if his strength multiplies each time you have an exponential function, which would be ridiculously big.

Originally posted by StyleTime

I mean in damage. The only real difference between a regular ki blast and a "special move" is the fact that the character screams the name beforehand honestly.

Well, in the case of the Final Flash Vegeta charged it up for about 4 mins of screeen time, so it's not that surprising that it's stronger. It's also a lot more focused than an average blast, or else it would have destroyed the planet . Also the regular ki blasts seem not to be controlled the way "special moves" are.
Originally posted by StyleTime

It's not a matter of desire comrade. He self destructed. All of his energy was released simultaneously. If he had anything above planet destroying capapilities, he would have destroyed the planet. It is that simple. This concept about control of which you speak is applicable in some situations, but most assuredly not this one.

I disagree, on the basis that Vegeta is not stupid enough to use an attack which would kill everyone he was trying to protect. Even Goku's smart enough not to do that. At the same time, Vegeta obviously believed he could destroy Buu down to a cellular level- which means that you're right, he couldn't hold anything back. The only scenario which satisfies both requirements- not destroying the Earth but destroying Buu- is that Vegeta retained control over his energy right up until the moment of his death. Under regular circumstances it wouldn't be surprising for him to have perfect control over a large sphere of ki, or to control an attack (like the Final Flash) in order to aim it precisely. Furthermore, this scenario doesn't leave in contradictions with earlier statements in DBZ, whereas yours would- Vegeta is by this point stronger than Cell, who said he had gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system, and yet according to you that crater is the full extent of Vegeta's destructive potential? It just doesn't add up (though this explains why you think DBZ logic is even more wacky than it actually is I guess).
Originally posted by StyleTime
It's actually quite different. Vegeta used all of his energy at once. If the U.S. detonated [b]all of its bombs simultaneously and the middle east survived, then we would say that this country is incapable of destroying the middle east. Similarly, we would say Vegeta is incapable of destroying Earth by the same point.[/B]

I think I've responded to this point in the previous paragraph.

Originally posted by StyleTime

I have to ask for clarification here. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

What I'm getting at is that Vegeta and Goku's strengths have increased approximately as expected, though it's hard to put a numerical value on that. (See the post about Vegeta's increase in strength)

Originally posted by StyleTime

Self-awareness does not beget a name my friend. It's fine if you want to believe it won't work on an animal. However, recognize that there's not really anything saying you can't. A named animal still meets the criteria set by the death note, so there is at least evidence that you can kill an animal using the note.

The problem with that is that you can't write a pseudonym into the Death Note and have it work, even if you fully believe it to be their real name. So it's not the killer's beliefs that determine which name one must input, it's the intended victim's beliefs.

Originally posted by StyleTime

I think you realize that you're presenting mostly theory with our discussion on Vegeta, which is fine, but I'm not sure of your purpose. Are you actually trying to convince us he can destroy the sun, or are you just discussing out of curiosity? I don't mean that insultingly. Again, it's not a horribly flawed theory, it just doesn't sync with DBZ's rediculous logic.

I'm saying that, while it can't be proved conclusively seeing as it never happens, Vegeta should be able to destroy the sun. The argument essentially boils down to:
EoZ SSJ2 Vegeta is much stronger than Cell. Cell said he could destroy the solar system, the other believed him and they can sense ki, so he had to be at a level where it was possible

There are other points but if those are accepted as true then there's no need to go into any more.

Wei Phoenix One-Eyed Dragon Of Oshu
Originally posted by jimBOFH
As you pointed out earlier, there are no aliens, humanoid or otherwise, in the Death Note universe. So, there is no information, for or against, on whether humanoid aliens can be killed by a Death Note. As for how the Death Note works- the details are not explained, but the key factor in killing someone is their name. Animals don't have names. Humanoid aliens, including both Superman and Vegeta, do, though Vegeta may or may not be protected by the fact that he has only a single, hereditary, name. In the case of aliens that are genetically so similar to humans as to look almost exactly the same (far more than any other primate), and are mentally and emotionally also very similar, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. That's not to say that it definitely would, but considering that the most important factor in the use of the Death Note has always been the name, it suggests that it will work on named individuals even if they aren't humans.
If it's a friendly battle, then they should fight on neutral ground (for example, somewhere which doesn't have a full moon nor a particularly intense level of sunlight)
As I said earlier, I have a feeling that the only proof you would accept that Vegeta can destroy the sun would be a scan of him doing it, and as you know no such thing exists. I've proved he can hit the sun with a coherent attack (Final Flash), and also that his strength should be far greater by the EoZ (10 year gap) than when he fought Buu. In terms of power, he was already stronger than Fat Buu (blasted a hole right through him easily enough), but not Kid Buu. By EoZ then, he should be stronger than Kid Buu if he's been doing what he's done for every other gap in Dragonball since his introduction- training as hard as he can. However, if you don't view this as proof that he's able to destroy the sun by this point (seeing as how Kid Buu certainly could, according to Kaioushin), then the only proof that would be undeniable would be a scan of him doing it, am I right?

So your whole argument is that the DN can work on something that doesn't exist in the DNU? Mind you that since aliens don't exist, then that means that the creator of the DN couldn't and wouldn't even know about aliens since they don't exist thus making it impossible to kill something that doesn't exist.

TheBadguy Senior Member

What was the whole thing about being able to see someone's real name if you made a deal with the shinigami? If I had to pick I think it would work on an alien but I don't think it would work on an animal. but really there is no way, that I can think of, to tell.

nij-ayias Senior Member

Originally posted by Naija boy
lulz thousands of times stronger than solar system destroying blasts? when has anyone in dbz done this? lmao.

luilz u obviously dont know who mephisto is, mephisto cannot destroy a solar system? do u read comics at all?

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/marvelgraphicnovel36silog5-1.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/marvelgraphicnovel36silma0-1.jpg

"The galaxies themselves bid fair to tremble and quake."

[B]There are no comics portrayal or measurement where Mephisto destroyed a solar system in a single blasts of fire power because what you're showing is shaking the galaxies, with what? magical fire power or reality warping? Looks reality warping to me not fire power. Also, this is comics not real world, to assume he can destroy the whole solar system with a single fire power is very wrong like comparing the speed of blocking and speed of punching. We need a comics portrayal or measurements like numbers.

A scan showing SSJ3 Goku's power reached and felt unaware in another universe, if we apply your answer, SSJ3 Goku can destroy galaxies because his power was reached and felt unaware in a place higher than after life:

Originally posted by Naija boy
In his fight with galactus, both of them were wrecking galaxies. And u also obviously dont know who ego the living planet is either, ego has gone toe to toe with galactus before as well. He has taken and survived such blasts and u are comparing hiim to a dbz character?lulz he is far far far far far far above ANYONE in dragonballz. the same goes for mephisto. Mephisto magical powers are not limited at all. Him being allowed to take the souls of only dead beings or those who willingly give him their souls is not a limit to his magical powers. It is a cosmic contract applying to all death gods. He can use his powers any way he feels like. He is so far above buu its not even funny. You are just make baseless statements. When was it proven that buus matter manipulation is unlimited? thats a huge No limit fallacy. People in DBZ dont even have any reasonable resistance to matter manip so buu being able to manipulate them is nothing special at all. He didnt even show any high level manipulation let alone it being unlimited.

Mephisto's magical powers is limited because it still needs a contract, needing something to accomplish is a limit instead of doing it in his own will. If what you're saying is true, show me that Surfer, Ego and Mephisto can matter manipulate Tyrant. Well, Tyrant is not a matter manipulator or reality warper, he doesn't have any resistance to it yet he cannot be matter manipulated by the Heralds.

Show me that Ego can took a point blank range or ground zero of planet destroying fire power or solar system destroying. Take note a scan with portrayal or measurement that it's fact.

Originally posted by Naija boy Further what in the world does energy output have to do with resistance to matter manip? (not that dbz guys output is anythin special anyways) If u have no resistance to matter manip then regardless of how high ur energy output is u will fall prey to it. Its like telling me if u are very strong u cant be teleported. 🙄 The two aspects are entirely unrelated. its just inane to think otherwise.[/B]

You're not paying attention, all the victims of Surfer's matter manipulation are very weak compare to DBZ, they can't even destroy cities with a single energy blast of fire power, let alone planet.

Originally posted by Naija boy lmao, Nobody in DBZ has blasts thousands of times more powerful than solar sytem destroying blasts. no one in dbz has shown anything like this or even close. Also surfers blackhole feat is not matter manipulation at all, what are u even talking about? Thanos clearly says its as a result of the energy he released. where did u see matter manip even mentioned?

It was portrayed and stated in the Dragon Manga that power level is a measurement of power or chi. And power level of 18000 alone can destroy a planet earth in a single hit, 100% Freeza has a power level of 120000000, meaning Freeza has 6667 times the power of planet buster.

The energy blast I'm talking about is a fire power not releasing an energy to create something.

Originally posted by Naija boy Surfer has complete control over his molecular structure, and has accomplished matter manip feats buu cant even dream of. U need classic dr strange level magic to hinder surfer. Buu is not even close to that level.

Surfer cannot matter manipulate Tyrant and Obliterator's body. Those two I mentioned were not matter and reality manipulator.

As for Buu's magical matter manipulation, it was portrayed in the manga as everything it hits become anything Buu desired, that includes Vegetto who become a coffee candy but kept his power, as stated by Vegetto that he kept his power. Surfer didn't portrayed his matter manipulator as 100% effective to ALL non reality warpers or non reality manipulator.

Originally posted by Naija boy
As i said before energy blasting has absolutely nothing to do with matter manip resistance. I dont know where u got the idea that it did. Moreover dragon ballz characters dont even have superior energy blasting output than surfer anyways. They are highly one dimensional characters who surfer can take out in a myriad of ways which include matter manip killing them on the astral plane, blasting to pieces etc. Ther blast output will is useless as they have no resistance to such tactics

Yes, energy blasting has absolutely nothing to do with reality and matter manipulation, but how come Surfer can't matter manipulate Tyrant, The Runner and Obliterator's body? All of I mentioned doesn't have the power to manipulate matter and reality.

jimBOFH Senior Member

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
So your whole argument is that the DN can work on something that doesn't exist in the DNU? Mind you that since aliens don't exist, then that means that the creator of the DN couldn't and wouldn't even know about aliens since they don't exist thus making it impossible to kill something that doesn't exist.

No, actually, it's not. I said that it might work on aliens that are sentient.
Your argument is wrong- it's like saying that bullets were developed to fight humans and animals, and therefore, there is absolutely no way ever that they would work on an alien. That's not to say that for a specific alien they would or wouldn't work, but there is a big difference between "unknown" and "impossible".

Endless Mike Sqirrel Girl fanboy

Originally posted by TheBadguy
A slightly veiled Goku vs Superman...like always.

Courtesy of Carver

*sigh*

Someone should ban him from posting in threads involving DBZ and Superman

Anyway, let's try something new:

Ed and Al Elric from FullMetal Alchemist vs. The Punisher and Daredevil

nij-ayias Senior Member

Originally posted by Endless Mike
*sigh*

Someone should ban him from posting in threads involving DBZ and Superman

Action Comics # 867

Endless Mike Sqirrel Girl fanboy

What about it?

TheBadguy Senior Member

Can't Ed just transmute them or some giant to fight them for him. Its been awhile since I've read/watched FMA so I'm fuzzy on it.

Jugglenaut Kain fanboys? ROFL

Is Ed as fast as Scar if he can fight with him consistently for a while?
If so, then Ed can certainly react to Punisher's shots, but still doesn't stop Dardevil from rushing them and beating the shit out of them by using Frank as a distraction.

carver9 Senior Member

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
WTF? Goku nigh invulnerable? Every enemy he fought has showed to hurt him greatly. He is only invulnerable to humans.

Lets look at Norrin. speed, super strength, and not only just speed by itself but combat speed, planet destroying blasts he can amp himself, no martial arts, nigh invulnerable, matter and energy manip, super intelligence, cosmic awareness.

Goku is invulnerable and its sad that you used goku being injured by his peers as an example. Do you consider superman nigh invulnerable because I do but guess what, doomsday has injured superman, general zod broke superman jaw, titus gave superman a black eye, kalibak busted up supermans face. I can keep going but I consider him invulnerable because even though it took his equal to injure him anythin less would fail. Same rules apply to surfer, surfer is nigh invulnerable but guess what, terrax cosmic axe ripped him a new one.

I agree with everything that is said about surfer, surfer IS my favorite character and I honestly dont think anyone on here is as knowledgable about him then I am. I can just see goku winking out whipping his ass and then basically dodging all of his blast. Lets not forget that goku has powers of his own so while silver surfer is blast goku would be blasting him back. Lets also not forget that goku dont always have to use his hands to blast, goku can just look at you and create a blast out of thin air, it has happened numerous of times.

Goku would thrash silver surfer and could you all please stop bringing up superman vs goku in this, we're discussing surfer.

ThunderGodEneru Senior Member

Goku and Vegeta could not stop a planet destroying blast.

Surfer uses one planet destroying blast to win. 🙂

carver9 Senior Member

Originally posted by Endless Mike
*sigh*

Someone should ban him from posting in threads involving DBZ and Superman

Anyway, let's try something new:

Ed and Al Elric from FullMetal Alchemist vs. The Punisher and Daredevil

I love you too.

I never brought up superman, I brought up surfer.

carver9 Senior Member

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Goku and Vegeta could not stop a planet destroying blast.

Surfer uses one planet destroying blast to win. 🙂

and youre basing this off of what?

ThunderGodEneru Senior Member

Them running away from Kid Buu's blast. 🙂

carver9 Senior Member
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Them running away from Kid Buu's blast. 🙂

Oh, you're talking about the blast that was>>>>>> a planet destroying blast.

Now if you want another example of just a planet destroying blast, look at the 1st blast kid buu shot and vegeta redirected it or how about the vegeta vs goku fight (there 1st fight), goku stopped a planet destroying blast then.

Planet destroying blast aint nothing to goku or krillin for the matter. 😕

ThunderGodEneru Senior Member

Originally posted by carver9
Oh, you're talking about the blast that was>>>>>> a planet destroying blast.
Yet it only destroyed a planet, and the estimation was only that it was ten times what would normally be required. 🙂

carver9 Senior Member
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Yet it only destroyed a planet, and the estimation was only that it was ten times what would normally be required. 🙂

What was you expecting it to destroy, the planet earth isnt that close to other planets for it to destroy a chain of them.

Who was to say that that was buu intentions on destroying more then the planet earth anyway even though that blast had the power of destroying the planet 10 times. By the way, goku said that it would destroy the earth 10 during the middle of the blast powering up, so we honestly dont know how powerful the blast was once buu was done with it.

Like I said before, kidd buu 1st blast was planet destroying and vegeta easily redirected it so why would a planet destroying blast kill vegeta. Also, frieza and goku's durability is equal and frieza SURVIVED a planet destroying blast without a problem. He wasnt even fazed by the planet destroying blast, it was goku's damage output that hurt him.

Hell frieza father even said that his son cant be destroyed as easily as a planet and again gokus durability=frieza.

StyleTime Senior Member

Originally posted by jimBOFH
See, this is where we fundamentally disagree on the portrayal. You've raised an example of Vegeta "going all out against an opponent" in which he doesn't destroy a planet, and interpreted that as him being unable to destroy the planet. I interpret that quite differently- Vegeta doesn't destroy the planet because he doesn't want to, for several reasons. Firstly, he can't survive in space, so destroying the planet he's on while in a fight with someone stronger than he is would be suicide. Secondly, even if he did somehow survive the Namekian Dragonballs would be lost.

I'll address your two reasons for Vegeta's reluctance to destroy Namek before I proceed to my main point. Firstly, since you want to accept Arlia as being something more than filler, I guess I'll go ahead and use it. Vegeta clearly stands outside his spaceship when he fires his blast at Arlia. Saying he can't survive is rediculous as he already did. Heck, he even spoke while he was in space. Either you disregard Arlia and admit that the feat Vegeta gains here is rediculous, or you must accept that he breathes in space and would not refrain from destroying a planet because of it. Secondly, the dragon balls would be useless to Vegeta if he is dead. There is no logical reason why he would not blow up the planet to kill Frieza if his life was threatened....which it was.

As for my main point here, I brought that up in my last post to show how Vegeta is virtually always displayed at less than planet busting. Even if he didn't destroy the planet, the guy should have done far more collateral damage than he did. Again, these are life and death situations. Vegeta has no reason to hold back. If I may illustrate my meaning, I ask that you look at this Silver Surfer vs Morg picture. In it, Surfer and Morg destroy a planet as a side effect of their battle.

Was Surfer's goal to destroy the planet? No, but he couldn't help it. This isn't about Silver Surfer of course, but I am trying to illustrate a point. If you have even near planet destroying power and have to use it to defeat your foe, the planet will be destroyed or severely damaged whether you want it to or not. Even if Vegeta was holding back for whatever convenient reason you wish to offer him, he should still at least wreak some large scale havok in any of the situations I've mentioned. Why didn't he? He can't destroy the planet.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
Also, going all out in a fight doesn't mean outputting all his energy at once- every time that someone has destroyed a planet up until the end of the Namek Saga they've had time to charge an attack- even Frieza's isn't totally casual.

This would be fine, but again Arlia works against you here. Vegeta charged his planet busting attacking in less than two seconds. Time would most certainly not factor into his decision.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
As for Vegeta having no attachment to Earth- not true. Part of him hates the fact that he does, which is why he submitted to Babidi, but by the time his fight with Goku is over it's apparent that he can't deny his feelings for his family and friends (e.g. feels responsible for Gohan's death). Not to mention that destroying the planet would kill him, again.

I said "the first two" are examples of a planet(Namek) to which Vegeta has no attachment. I never denied that he is attached to Earth later in the series. We can drop this. It just takes up page space.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I see what you mean, but the increase is additional each time. Each time you add a constant, which is equal to 3 times Vegeta's strength in the Imperfect Cell Saga. As opposed to multiplying Vegeta's strength each time. So the end result is a multiplication of his original strength, as it would have been if I had assumed a multiplication of his strength each time, but if his strength multiplies each time you have an exponential function, which would be ridiculously big.

I understood you from the start. I was just being douchebag. We were saying the same thing. Since we agree here we can drop this too.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Well, in the case of the Final Flash Vegeta charged it up for about 4 mins of screeen time, so it's not that surprising that it's stronger. It's also a lot more focused than an average blast, or else it would have destroyed the planet . Also the regular ki blasts seem not to be controlled the way "special moves" are.

It is surprising actually. Again, the Arlia blast was like...2 seconds. There's not much difference between ki blasts other than the screaming of a name beforehand.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I disagree, on the basis that Vegeta is not stupid enough to use an attack which would kill everyone he was trying to protect. Even Goku's smart enough not to do that. At the same time, Vegeta obviously believed he could destroy Buu down to a cellular level- which means that you're right, he couldn't hold anything back. The only scenario which satisfies both requirements- not destroying the Earth but destroying Buu- is that Vegeta retained control over his energy right up until the moment of his death. Under regular circumstances it wouldn't be surprising for him to have perfect control over a large sphere of ki, or to control an attack (like the Final Flash) in order to aim it precisely. Furthermore, this scenario doesn't leave in contradictions with earlier statements in DBZ, whereas yours would- Vegeta is by this point stronger than Cell, who said he had gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system, and yet according to you that crater is the full extent of Vegeta's destructive potential? It just doesn't add up (though this explains why you think DBZ logic is even more wacky than it actually is I guess).

I don't think he is that stupid either. Which is why self-destructed. He knew he could not blow up the planet. There is a scenario that satisfies both requirements AND is consistent with Vegeta's typical power output. He can't destroy the planet. He died the second he exploded. There is no control beyond that point. He was dead. If he had even half of his planet destroying power, he would gave caused global damage. As for Vegeta being stronger than Cell, this just goes back to what I said earlier. Power level in DBZ only means you can beat an opponent with a lower power level than you. It does not mean you can cause the same damage he or she can.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
What I'm getting at is that Vegeta and Goku's strengths have increased approximately as expected, though it's hard to put a numerical value on that. (See the post about Vegeta's increase in strength)

Their power levels rise of course. I won't deny that.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
The problem with that is that you can't write a pseudonym into the Death Note and have it work, even if you fully believe it to be their real name. So it's not the killer's beliefs that determine which name one must input, it's the intended victim's beliefs.

This is getting a little too philosophical for my tastes. There's no real way to test the whole self awareness theory and I honestly doubt the author gave much thought it. The problem here is that you assume that self awareness somehow makes the name any more "real." A child named John by his parents would still have the "real" name of John even if he was raised to believe his name was Alex. Were John's full name written in the death note, he would die without ever knowing his "real" name. Names are properties initially bestowed upon us by someone else. Going by the events of death note, it is implied that the birth name, or first name, you are given is the one needed to kill you. Furthermore, the owner of the note must have the face of the person he wishes to kill in mind, so the death note does not operate exclusively off of the self awareness of the intended victim. Self awareness doesn't appear to be requirement at all really.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I'm saying that, while it can't be proved conclusively seeing as it never happens, Vegeta should be able to destroy the sun. The argument essentially boils down to:
EoZ SSJ2 Vegeta is much stronger than Cell. Cell said he could destroy the solar system, the other believed him and they can sense ki, so he had to be at a level where it was possible
There are other points but if those are accepted as true then there's no need to go into any more.

Should he? Maybe. Again, the logic of the show prevents that.

This last bit I address earlier though. Not only did Cell never do that, but Vegeta does not gain that ability simply by being of a higher power level.

If we accept those as true, then yes, we could end the discussion here. Unfortunately, well you know I'm going to say.