My stupid Internet has been acting up so this is a little late.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I don't recall actually saying I accepted Arlia as canon- sure, I brought it up, but that was only in response to your saying that Vegeta wasn't portrayed as planet-destroying. All the specifics of Arlia are worthless, it's only the general intent that's approximately in line with the actual canon.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I disagree- all the Z fighters, but Vegeta in particular (Final Flash) are shown as having extraordinary control over their energy and bodies. Energy that goes into creating an enormous crater is energy that doesn't go into damaging your opponent, after all. So Surfer can't control attacks that precisely- I'm not surprised, he's not a martial artist. So it's not that Vegeta's holding back- on the contrary, he's focusing as much of his energy as possible on his opponent.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
See above. This sort of inconsistency is exactly why Arlia would never be accepted as canon.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Again, see above. Further, how do you know he wasn't charging the Arlia blast in the ship?
Originally posted by jimBOFH
He's not an emo either. If he was actually incapable of destroying the planet, then blowing himself up would have obviously been pointless. But to actually destroy the planet would have been just as bad. The only way that he could possibly have hoped for victory is if he can focus all his power around Buu. Again, why is this unusual? All he's doing is focusing a ki sphere- just like his Big Bang attack, or Goku's Genki Dama.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Look, let's take a look at it from the same starting perspective. Hypothetically, let's say that Vegeta had exactly the amount of energy needed to destroy Buu, which would also be enough to destroy the planet if he directly blasted the planet.
Under what circumstances could he attack Buu? Only if he's confident that he can control his energy to hit only Buu, right? Regardless of how powerful he is, if he can't control his energy to hit Buu alone then he would never attack.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
That depends on whether you define "real" as "legal"...you're right, this is getting philosophical. If we keep this up I don't think we're actually going to get anywhere, so we may as well drop it.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I disagree- power levels are based on Ki, so it's the other way round- fighters of the same power level, using the same attack in the same way should have the same effect.
Whereas they won't necessarily win if their opponent is smarter than they are, has better attacks, or can regenerate from nothing.
So I would say that Vegeta with Final Flash should be able to destroy more than Cell with Kamehameha if he has a higher power level.
Originally posted by nij-ayias
So you disregard the portrayal about power level or ki sensing as a measurement of ki or power, it was stated. You can’t disregard the portrayal in the manga or anime for your real world logical reason. In fictional world, comics portrayal beats logical reason.
Originally posted by nij-ayias
[B]I know that scan and as far as I remember, in the next panel the planet is still standing or not destroyed. Can you show me the next page as a proof?Did you just say that “Surfer and Morg destroy a planet as a side effect of their battle”?
Is there any proof that Surfer alone or Morg alone can destroy a planet with a single fire power of their energy blast and not just some side effect of the clash of energy?
And take note, what matters most in the fictional world is comics portrayal not logical reason from our world. Comics portrayal usually beats logic. There are no comics portrayal that Surfer alone or Morg alone can destroy a planet with a single fire power of energy blast. [/B]
Originally posted by nij-ayias
[B]You only proved us that there were no comics portrayal that Surfer alone can destroy a planet with a single FIRE POWER of his energy blast. [/B]
Originally posted by nij-ayias
It was not stated or portrayed in the manga that “power level [B]SIMPLY means you can beat an opponent with a lower power level than you” but it is a measurement of ki. Read the namek arc, it was stated that it power level is a measurement of power. You do know what measurement means do you? It only proves and shows how much progress they gain in time.[/B]
As for your non-point, statements are quite worthless when the opposite is actually demonstrated more times than not.
Originally posted by nij-ayias
What you're saying doesn't really apply in fictional worlds. Dragon Ball and other comics are fictional worlds, what was measured inside that fictional world or what was portrayed is what matters most and not the logical reason or theories from our world.
Originally posted by TheBadguy
Vegeta wanted eternal life, he tried his hardest to avoid Freeza when possible. Destroying the planet would be suicide because if at that point he was strong enough to survive the explosion he'd eventually die in space. Regardless, If Vegeta chose suicide which I doubt he would at this point, he would never have the opportunity to do it. If he tried to put Freeza in the scenario he did Goku during their beam struggle, Freeza would have killed him long before he gathered the energy to blow the planet. and if Freeza let him gather it, Freeza would would over power it easily. and you are forgetting towards the end Vegeta thought he could beat Freeza straight up.I didn't say you brought up something unreasonable in comics, my point was that if it was reversed nobody would say lack of environment damage indicates lack of power for Thor, WWH, and the like. I am a 'comic fan', I'm in the versus forum more than anywhere. I don't need someone to tell me what I see for myself all the time. and hyperbole is worse in comics, a million exploding suns is just one of the many examples that you are bound to get when you use narration panels so much. Have you seen Cyclops' limit? I haven't.
I wasn't accusing you of not liking comics. As for the hyperbole, I know it exists in pretty much all comics. I said we rarely actually allow it like dbz arguments do. For example, Sentry's million exploding suns is generally accepted as complete nonsense in any sensible debate in comics. Few believe he has that power and even fewer bring it up in debates aside from attempts at humor. We may not have seen a limit to Cyclops, but to assume he can destroy a planet when has yet to show us that he can is just rediculous as saying Sentry is as powerful as a million exploding suns or that Vegeta can destroy a sun. I know you're not saying Scott can do that, I'm just pointing out that comic characters are held to that same standard we hold the dbz guys to by people with any sense.
I know this is a double post, but the message box said my post was too long. I had to post them separately.
Originally posted by StyleTime
If Arlia isn't accepted as canon, there's no reason we really need to discuss this matter. It's pure speculation. Vegeta isn't a confirmed planet buster without the Arlia feat unless my memory betrays me.
Originally posted by StyleTimeLike I said earlier, these are just convenient for the DBZ characters. Under this logic, we could form an argument that Cyclops could destroy a planet. Not to mention, it's not like Surfer hasn't focused energy before. I don't think the planet exploding is due a lack of control. It's just energy released. If you have to step your game up to a level that should destroy a planet, the planet will at least take severe damage.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I agree, but again this is pretty much pointless as Vegeta busting planets is just speculation without it. I was trying to give a little credence to the Vegeta argument by considering Arlia.
Originally posted by StyleTime
It's clear when he steps out of the ship that he wasn't charging it. He doesn't power up until he pointed his fingers at the planet.
Originally posted by StyleTime
It wouldn't be unusual, and I'd even agree with it if weren't for one fact. Vegeta exploded. He was dead. All his energy came out at once. There's no controlling it. With big bang, I can almost see your point. I don't get why you can't accept a lack of control when Vegeta...explodes though.
Originally posted by StyleTimeThat is plausible. However, let's take the same scenario only Vegeta has less than planet destroying capabilities. He'd probably go through with it as soon as he felt he had no other option.
Originally posted by StyleTimeIn theory maybe. I can't think of many examples of this holding true with planet destruction though.
Originally posted by StyleTimeActually, I'd be consistent with the logic of the show. Like I said earlier, power level really hasn't done more than show that a person with a higher power level will generally beat a person of a lower one. I will say that this doesn't have much relevance to the part of my post that you quoted. We were more so discussing reasons, if any, that Vegeta wouldn't want to destroy Namek. Not power levels.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I brought that incident up specifically to address this fact. In many cases you're actually right. However, planet destroying acts have pretty much always destroyed planets unless thwarted. I'm at a different computer right now so I can't post a scan, but Green Lantern blew up a planet by accident as well. Again, this isn't specifically about Green Lantern, but a planet destroying blast will destroy a planet. It's not a matter of you wanting it to or not.
As the Old Kai says, "It's not always the fighter with the highest power level that wins".
Frieza said somethng similar
"Its soemtimes the smartest fighter who wins, Not the strongest" 😄
But yehh, it takes a ki level of around 22,00 to Destroy a Planet..By the Namek saga Vegetas average standign PL is in the high 20,000, and thats at the star of the saga by the end his power level is in the Millions !!
No, the power levels are measurements of energy or Ki. It would be impossible to have a ranking system based upon "who would win" without them having already fought. And both Cell and Buu are outclassed, in terms of raw Ki, by their Saiyan opponents at the end- they win their fights because of their regenerative abilities. In both fights you see Cell and Buu taking an absolute beating, but just regenerating. Sorry i belibe that to be untrue, Buu ahd more Ki than any of the Z-Fighters Goku says hmself in amazment to Buus stamina "where does eh find the enrgy"?? Cell on the other hand was above the z fighters but just barely and until gohan went ssj2, the fatc that they could regenerate just put them even further ahead Buu esepecially since his regeneration is far more effective. Look at Buus energy (Anime) He destroys Earth, and another 5 Planets after it, each time bwoing himself up along with the planet, and shows no fatiuge, or energy loss afterwoods!!
Originally posted by BradBalboa
No, the power levels are measurements of energy or Ki. It would be impossible to have a ranking system based upon "who would win" without them having already fought. And both Cell and Buu are outclassed, in terms of raw Ki, by their Saiyan opponents at the end- they win their fights because of their regenerative abilities. In both fights you see Cell and Buu taking an absolute beating, but just regenerating. Sorry i belibe that to be untrue, Buu ahd more Ki than any of the Z-Fighters Goku says hmself in amazment to Buus stamina "where does eh find the enrgy"?? Cell on the other hand was above the z fighters but just barely and until gohan went ssj2, the fatc that they could regenerate just put them even further ahead Buu esepecially since his regeneration is far more effective. Look at Buus energy (Anime) He destroys Earth, and another 5 Planets after it, each time bwoing himself up along with the planet, and shows no fatiuge, or energy loss afterwoods!!
IIRC, Vegeta's power level at the beginning of the Namek Saga is 23-25K, and goes up to 35K after being beaten by Zarbon. After being healed by Dende, it would be several million, considering Frieza's power in Form III.
hmm we as for destructive power Buus power is higher than any saiyan ( with the expetion of ssj3) he destroyed entire galaxies, the only saiyan to ever do this that we know was broly, anywoo, Buus overall power is higher than the saiyans as his seemingly unlimited stamina, incalcuable durabilty, and almost infinite strnegth shows Supreme Kai- "How can anyone be that strong" he says this when buu stops and overpowers the super spirit bomb, true vegeta was pumaling buu, he was determined he was fightign for something, as for buu letting him do it i dotn know, buu just ddint seem to care that vegeta was hitting him,buus power>>> vegetas power
Originally posted by BradBalboa
hmm we as for destructive power Buus power is higher than any saiyan ( with the expetion of ssj3) he destroyed entire galaxies, the only saiyan to ever do this that we know was broly, anywoo, Buus overall power is higher than the saiyans as his seemingly unlimited stamina, incalcuable durabilty, and almost infinite strnegth shows Supreme Kai- "How can anyone be that strong" he says this when buu stops and overpowers the super spirit bomb, true vegeta was pumaling buu, he was determined he was fightign for something, as for buu letting him do it i dotn know, buu just ddint seem to care that vegeta was hitting him,buus power>>> vegetas power
Vegetas two finger blast went straght threw buu he didnt see it comming thats why he never blocked it. Strength wise vegeta says - "His strength is pupostarus" when goku is fighting buu. it does go up, but your forgetting buu ( mostly shown in kid and fat form) gets stronger and stronger every second he fights Uub inherits this of Buu also. In most forms Buu outshines everyone in all areas!!
Originally posted by BradBalboa
Vegetas two finger blast went straght threw buu he didnt see it comming thats why he never blocked it. Strength wise vegeta says - "His strength is pupostarus" when goku is fighting buu. it does go up, but your forgetting buu ( mostly shown in kid and fat form) gets stronger and stronger every second he fights Uub inherits this of Buu also. In most forms Buu outshines everyone in all areas!!
He saw Vegeta's attack coming in plenty of time, compared to the Kai's attacks which he dodged or deflected easily.
Buu's strength is very high, but as Fat Buu he's takes a beating from Vegeta at the beginning of their fight and only starts damaging Vegeta once Vegeta's exhausted- even then he uses his slime trick; whereas when Vegeta fights Kid Buu he's being beaten up right from the start.
Originally posted by nij-ayias
"The galaxies themselves bid fair to tremble and quake."[B]There are no comics portrayal or measurement
where Mephisto destroyed a solar system in a single blasts of fire power because what you're showing is shaking the galaxies, with what? magical fire power or reality warping? Looks reality warping to me not fire power. Also, this is comics not real world, to assume he can destroy the whole solar system with a single fire power is very wrong like comparing the speed of blocking and speed of punching. We need a comics portrayal or measurements like numbers.A scan showing SSJ3 Goku's power reached and felt unaware in another universe, if we apply your answer, SSJ3 Goku can destroy galaxies because his power was reached and felt unaware in a place higher than after life:
Mephisto's magical powers is limited because it still needs a contract, needing something to accomplish is a limit instead of doing it in his own will. If what you're saying is true, show me that Surfer, Ego and Mephisto can matter manipulate Tyrant. Well, Tyrant is not a matter manipulator or reality warper, he doesn't have any resistance to it yet he cannot be matter manipulated by the Heralds.
Show me that Ego can took a point blank range or ground zero of planet destroying fire power or solar system destroying. Take note a scan with portrayal or measurement that it's fact.
You're not paying attention, all the victims of Surfer's matter manipulation are very weak compare to DBZ, they can't even destroy cities with a single energy blast of fire power, let alone planet.
It was portrayed and stated in the Dragon Manga that power level is a measurement of power or chi. And power level of 18000 alone can destroy a planet earth in a single hit, 100% Freeza has a power level of 120000000, meaning Freeza has 6667 times the power of planet buster.
The energy blast I'm talking about is a fire power not releasing an energy to create something.
Surfer cannot matter manipulate Tyrant and Obliterator's body. Those two I mentioned were not matter and reality manipulator.
As for Buu's magical matter manipulation, it was portrayed in the manga as everything it hits become anything Buu desired, that includes Vegetto who become a coffee candy but kept his power, as stated by Vegetto that he kept his power. Surfer didn't portrayed his matter manipulator as 100% effective to ALL non reality warpers or non reality manipulator.
Yes, energy blasting has absolutely nothing to do with reality and matter manipulation, but how come Surfer can't matter manipulate Tyrant, The Runner and Obliterator's body? All of I mentioned doesn't have the power to manipulate matter and reality. [/B]
*Sigh* i should have replied this laughable post a few days ago but ive been offline for a while.
First of all what the hell do u mean by "their are no comic portrayals or measurements"? what is there to measure? Further how the hell did u come up with the inane comparison betweenthis example and the speed of blocking and punching?eer. The mephisto example is in no way analogous to it at all. also mephisto and galactus were not reality warping, they were blasting each other and wrecking the galaxies in the process due to the power of their blast. Its very clear in this scan
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/marvelgraphicnovel36silsz8-1.jpg
Your comparison to SSJ gokus power level being felt is just unbelievably ridiculous. It has absolutely NO relationship to the galactus mephisto incident. NONE. For one gokus caused no destruction even to his surrounding environment let alone anywhere else. Secondly he wasnt even blasting so it is absolutely irrelevant.
Now to the even more utterly laughable parts of ur post. First of all neither mephisto nor ego has EVER fought tyrant, so me showing u them matter manipulating tyrant is impossible. Secondly its obvious u know absolutely nothing about tyrant in the first place. Tyrant cant manipulate matter? Are u joking? Tyrant was imbued with powers identical to galactuses. A full powered tyrant is near galactus level. He has matter manipulation powers of the highest order. far higher than anything surfer can fathom.
Ego the living planet has taken blasts from silver surfer, ( which haveeasily destroy planets ) and has taken blasts from galactus ( which easily destroyed multiple solarsystems and galaxies). Once again i dont know what u mean by this gibberish of a scan with a "
"portrayal or measurement" so that it is fact. The true fact is that silver surfers blasts have easily destroyed planets. Also an extremely galactus blasts have easily destroyed multiple solar systems. Ego the living planet has been able to take blasts from an all out silver surfer and galactus with little trouble. There is no need for any sort of "measurement" because the capabilities of such blasts have been proven in comics.
Yes i find it hard to pay attention to all this trash u are spouting. Whether the victims of surfers matter manipulation can destroy planets with or cities is ABSOLUTELY IRRLEVANT. Alot of the people that surfer faced have ressitance to matter manip and that is what is important. Blasting power is a non issue unless u can show me an example in which surfer actually tried matter manip on an opponent and failed due to the fact that their blasting output was superior to his ( which gokus isnt anyways).
Surfer didnt release any specific energy to create anything. What he did was release a such a huge amount of energy that it resulted in the creation of a blackhole as an aftereffect. U saying its not a "firepower" is just funny beyond belief. If surfer had directed that energy toward a being and not meteors it wud have been the same result. the only difference would have been the target of his energy discharge or in other words blast. A blast is an energy discharge simply directed at something/someone.
Tyrant is a high level matter manipulator, and obliterator as an elder of the universe has high level resistance to it. the same goes for the runner further, surfer never even tried to matter manip obliterators or runners or tyrants body in the first place so that whole line of argumenet is just ridiculous.
Buu's reality manip affecting beings who have shown no form of ressitance to it means absolutely nothing and certainly in no way suggests it was supreme. All it suggests is that Dbz characters dont have ressitance to that sort of tactic. Further u dont have to be a reality manipulator to have ressitance to matter manipulation. Surfer has never ever attempted and failed to matter manip someone who did not have RESISTANCE to matter manip. Rather he has shown the ability to matter manip even those with high level resistance to it. All ur examples are invalid and show a complete ignorance of the characters u mentioned.
Originally posted by nij-ayias
There are no comics portrayal that Surfer alone or Morg alone can destroy a planet with a single fire power of energy blast.
[/B]
Utter nonsense. Here surfer easily destroys a planet while fighting ravenous. Note the energy wrecking the planet is surfers energy
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/AnnihilationSilverSurfer4-012.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/AnnihilationSilverSurfer4-017.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/AnnihilationSilverSurfer4-019.jpg
surfer was even holding back immensely in this fight anyways.
Well, I just regained access to the internet. I've been away a while and I'm guessing interest has waned in this but I'll respond anyway.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
It's true that Vegeta isn't shown destroying a planet, but it's clear that he can- every time he threatens to do so, starting with this:
http://img06.nj.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/214/20-233.0/compressed/chap233i04.jpg
he's taken seriously by Goku et al. Considering how much his power level rises on Namek alone, if there was a reasonable chance he could destroy Earth in his first fight with Goku, it's a certainty after Namek.
To argue that Vegeta can't destroy a planet later in the series is ridiculous- afaik he's never shown drinking Coke either, but does anyone assume this has any significance, or that he's incapable of doing so?
We can't just go with statements that may or may not be true comrade. Like I said before, there are multitudes of characters who would be planet busters if we allowed for statements like this to be used as proof of power. It's not rediculous to say he can't destroy one when he hasn't destroyed one. As for your coke analogy, we actually don't know if Vegeta could drink it or not. We don't know how coke interacts with his alien physiology.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
I don't see how you can possibly deny their Ki-control. The DBZ fighters are all martial artists using Ki- this is what differentiates them and most American superheroes. Your use of Vegeta's self-destruction as an argument against his being planet-busting is entirely based on him being unable to control his energy in the attack- but I see absolutely no evidence to support this view. And to demonstrate an example of an attack that is planet-busting powerwise but does no significant damage to a planet- Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell. Trunks and Krillin are almost certain they're about to die, but the blast hits only Cell. There doesn't need to be significant collateral damage from powerful attacks- if anything, it's a sign of inefficient fighting technique.
Also, when was final flash confirmed as planet busting level?
Originally posted by jimBOFH
You knew it wasn't canon, and therefore not worth anything. It's not necessary anyway- see the scan above from Vegeta's 1st fight with Goku.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Vegeta doesn't actually explode as such- death is not instantaneous for him. Rather, he unleashes all of his energy at once- his body is left as an empty, burnt-out shell as you can see in this scan.
http://img06.nj.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/214/39-009.0/compressed/390903.jpg
All previous evidence with Ki attacks suggests Vegeta wields a high degree of control over them- possibly more so than anyone else amongst the Z fighters. Thus, until the moment of his death he should be in complete control of that attack- and it's not an instantaneous explosion.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Well, if he came to this conclusion halfway through his fight with Buu he'd have no options left, true. Nonetheless if he didn't have enough Ki to destroy a planet he'd have no chance against Buu and would know that from the beginning.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
There are only 3 (4 if you count King Kai's planet) planets destroyed that are shown in any detail throughout the series. 2 of them are Frieza, one is Buu and the King Kai's planet is destroyed by Imperfect Cell. So there aren't that many detailed examples of planets being destroyed full stop. However, to say that therefore these 3 characters are the only ones capable of destroying planets is incorrect- all of the surviving Saiyans end up being far more powerful than Frieza, and up until the end of the Namek saga Toriyama actually gives detailed power levels for fights, these being a measurement of energy or Ki. Characters with higher fighting power than Frieza should all be able to destroy a planet such as Earth.
Originally posted by jimBOFH
No, the power levels are measurements of energy or Ki. It would be impossible to have a ranking system based upon "who would win" without them having already fought. And both Cell and Buu are outclassed, in terms of raw Ki, by their Saiyan opponents at the end- they win their fights because of their regenerative abilities. In both fights you see Cell and Buu taking an absolute beating, but just regenerating. As the Old Kai says, "It's not always the fighter with the highest power level that wins".
Originally posted by jimBOFH
Planet destroying acts have pretty much always destroyed planets... That's a truism. If they hadn't destroyed planets, then they wouldn't be planet destroying acts, now would they? They could be potentially galaxy destroying attacks but if they don't hit anything, they're still not planet destroying attacks.
You keep asserting that Vegeta and the other Z fighters can't control an attack powerful enough to destroy a planet- well, Vegeta managed to control his Final Flash. Goku has no problem controlling the Spirit Bomb. Sure, many American superheroes would cause a lot of collateral damage if they use an attack powerful enough to destroy a planet. But Goku and Vegeta, using Ki, are consistently shown to be able to control it with a high degree of precision.
Which is why we can't call final flash and the spirit bomb planet destroying attacks.
Without the Arlia feat, this is pretty much pointless. I'm not disregarding you of course, but I don't really see why we should even consider Vegeta for this level honestly. He hasn't done it. He's been consistantly shown at a level below it. We wouldn't use his supporting logic for other characters. It's like we're trying to make an exception for him and other DBZ characters.
I forgot about this discussion...lol this is just getting ridiculous.
So Vegeta lied when he said it more than once in the Sayain Saga and then they lied for him when he used the Final Flash. and Vegeta is below planet busting during the Buu saga. Makes perfect sense. So who can actually blow a planet?
No one. It's all conspiracies. Hercule Satan is in fact the most powerful fighter in the DBZ universe- anything suggesting otherwise is smoke and mirrors and rigged explosives 😛
I'll post a serious response later when I'm not so tired, but for now I'd just like to say- I don't think I'm making an exception for Vegeta or DBZ, for any literary work with a character with similar evidence, I think I would draw similar conclusions.
