Originally posted by darthsith19
and while Kenobi utalizes Soresu, Plo uses Shien/Djem So, which is the form that excels at deflecting blaster bolts back at the person who fired them, so if lightning didn't work Plo could just as easily deflect a bolt back at Jango.
Plo Koon uses Djem So? Ahem, but since when? As far as I know, no actual source states he is a practitioner of Djem So, but provide an actual quote please as I know the rest of what you copied was like, straight from wiki, lol - which obviously gives no direct source.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Except nothing contradictc what we see in Jedi Power Battles and several sources contradict Battlefront 2.
Except video games are not a source to go by in terms of game movements and the like, which is the main point that apparently flew over your head (point would be how every form in KOTOR does the same thing practically). Anyways, you cannot state Plo Koon uses Djem So simply because a game from six years ago shows "slow, power" movements or whatever the hell you are purely speculating on.
No direct source, and a video game that was created before lightsaber forms were mainly introduced (2002) is your evidence? That's far from sufficient evidence to even begin to deduct from, let alone to state as fact like you did and then use it as an argument.
Originally posted by darthsith19
The game is all we have on Plo's saber form, there's nor eason why we should not be able to use it. Last time I checked Video Games were a part of the Star Wars Universe and are therefor canon as long as they are not contradicted by a higher source, as is the case with Battlefront 2.
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon". The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what the game shows, because there's no direct evidence nor anything remotely close backing it up.
By your logic, I can claim that Exar Kun uses Djem So as fact, and so does Ulic...and for that matter, Vodo must use Soresu. But then I think about and say to myself, "Damn, Advent, I'm purely speculating. Wouldn't it be sheer idiocy to try and use it as an argument?". Of course, the answer is yes.
There is a reason for why we shouldn't use it, and it's a simple one at that: it's game movements from a video game six years ago. There's no definitive answer that says Plo Koon uses Djem So, for all you know he's a Juyo practitioner, or maybe he uses Ataru like Qui-Gon Jinn does (slow, not fast, seemingly powerful swings).
So, as it seems, your argument about Plo Koon's lightsaber form is faulty as I would suspect. So, please do not state anything about Plo Koon's form as fact, even more do not state that "there's no reason" because I can think of ten (err...less) that would put doubt on it, and call it into question.
Hey, nothing contradicts that Vodo wasn't the "grandmaster" or equivalent of during the Old Republic times, nothing also contradicts that Odan wasn't the most powerful Force using Jedi after Exar Kun and Ulic turned, so it must be so. That's sure some spectaculizzle logicizzle. Although the analogy isn't perfect (give me some time, I'll cook up a new one), you should get the point. Just because it isn't contradicted, doesn't mean it is so - especially with the ridiculous source you're using.
Anyways, screw what I wrote above, because the point is: you cannot state as fact, nor use as an argument that Plo Koon uses Djem So because it "seems like" he does based on a PS1/Dreamcast video game movement.
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".
There is a reason for why we shouldn't use it, and it's a simple one at that: it's game movements from a video game six years ago.
Hey, nothing contradicts that Vodo wasn't the "grandmaster" or equivalent of during the Old Republic times, nothing also contradicts that Odan wasn't the most powerful Force using Jedi after Exar Kun and Ulic turned, so it must be so. That's sure some spectaculizzle logicizzle. Although the analogy isn't perfect (give me some time, I'll cook up a new one), you should get the point. Just because it isn't contradicted, doesn't mean it is so - especially with the ridiculous source you're using.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Unless you can provide proof that says video games arn't canon shut it.
Obviously your spectacles need to be equipped for this one:
Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".
Game elements have always been non-canon, read our canon policy, pal. It'd actually be your job to show me where it says that video game movements are canon, not the other way around. By the fact nearly every video game produced does not accurately portray lightsaber movements (even ones created after 2002) is proof enough for my side.
And there's really nothing to "shut", except you up.
And if it was only one month old would it be more canon? If the answer is no, then why do you keep[ bringing up how old it is?
Obviously you've missed the point yet again (no surprise right thurr [right thurr]), a game that was made two years before lightsaber forms were even introduced is hardly a source to go by. And while I'd agree that even though forms weren't around really when say, Ep. VI was made - it's the pure fact that you're using video game movements that do not specify what form the player is using.
And I want a source saying video games arn't canon.
Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".
^
And the source saying that would be: obvious. Since when have video game movements ever been considered canonical?
Short answer: Never, it's common knowledge. Especially when forms vary in their movesets from game to game.
If there was a video game that showed Vodo on the Council being the clear leader then yes, I would say he's the grandmaster. [/B]
If there was an actual source that said Plo Koon uses Form V, then yes I would say he uses Form V. It's a simple response.
Again I ask, why is it that I can't claim Plo Koon uses Ataru in the manner that a one Qui-Gon Jinn does (slow, not fast or flashy), but you can claim as fact that Plo Koon uses Djem So?
As I see you seem to have "skipped" over the majority of my post, I'll say it again: by your twisted logic, I'd be able to state that Exar Kun uses Djem So, and Ulic, too, as well judging by what we've seen of Vodo (and his stick) he must be a Soresu practitioner. And I'd also be able to use this as an argument.
But then, like I said, I come to the realization that there's nothing majorly supporting those assumptions (and that's what they are - assumptions, NOT FACT - something you clearly cannot differentiate between).
I'm sorry, DS, but your argument about Plo Koon is far from being able to state as fact, it's faulty logic to make the claim you are based off a video game. Especially what we know about the movements, and how they are usually incorrectly portrayed. And I'm going to assume that you've never actually seen Plo Koon in Jedi Power Battles, but are only going by what you've read fans have *speculated* on wiki. So, perhaps those "fans" are wrong, perhaps they are right, either way JPB's movements are not a source to use an argument due to the fact that video games rarely get forms correct, and the fact that there's several other explanation as to why he is slow and/or uses power swings or whatever (like I said before, QGJ moves similarly to the description fans have given).
Game elements have always been non-canon, read our canon policy, pal. It'd actually be your job to show me where it says that video game movements are canon, not the other way around. By the fact nearly every video game produced does not accurately portray lightsaber movements (even ones created after 2002) is proof enough for my side.
a game that was made two years before lightsaber forms were even introduced is hardly a source to go by.
And the source saying that would be: obvious. Since when have video game movements ever been considered canonical?
Again I ask, why is it that I can't claim Plo Koon uses Ataru in the manner that a one Qui-Gon Jinn does (slow, not fast or flashy), but you can claim as fact that Plo Koon uses Djem So?
Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, so it is your opinion that video games are considered non canon.
Can you like, not misinterpret my statements anymore? Is it possible? Because:
Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".
Now, do you want to go get the Hubble Space Telescope or what?
I've stated specifically that video game movements (which, in the context I'm using it in means "move sets" for those who are incapable of grasping that simple fact) are not canon. They have never been considered canonical unless it's a Force power depicted in another source or whatever. And when I say "game elements", I really mean my main point, which was move sets - are non-canon.
I've never stated video games are non-canon, the background stories and cutscenes are, but how a character moves is not, likewise what level you reach, what forms you would pick (for KOTOR/JA/JO/etc.) are not. Just to echo myself, so as I make myself clear.
are not canon How is it my job to provide proof, you're the one who just came out of nowhere and started syaing something that has been used for canon since I've been here isn't canon.
No, you're the one that has been constantly misinterpreting my statement. If you've ever looked at my beautiful posting history, I've argued for/against video game characters (Kyle Katarn, for example) - I wouldn't be arguing for/against them if they were considered N-Canon (or if I thought they were).
Plus, I've never even stated that video games aren't canon, only movements, like how the lightsaber strikes, you dolt.
So then Nihilus isn't canon, eitehr I take it, and neitehr are Traya, Sion, The Exile, Desaan or Malak, huh? But, if you must insist: C-canon is "continuity" canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. - Star Wars Insider
Darthsith, read carefully:
Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".
"...elements like movements..."
Now where do I have the opinion that the games' characters, storylines, and cutscenes are not canon? Mainly where do I say that "video games aren't canon"? Ah? Nowhere? What do I say? Movements, MOVEMENTS, MOVEMENTS, which equate to the way a lightsaber strikes, are not canon is what I stated.
Does it matter? Tell me, then, when were the saber forms created?
It matters inasmuch as video games usually have inaccurately portrayed lightsaber movements, so what makes JPB - a game which you've never even played - a good source especially considering it came out years before forms were around )two years to be exact)? Just because nothing contradicts it? Well, nothing contradicts Vodo > Odan with the Force, but is it true? Nothing contradicts Exar using Djem So! It must be so!
You are missing the real point, and addressing a simple add-on. Please quit wasting my time, son.
Well, there's thread that contain video game only characters on the last page of the vs. thread, so.
How is the Games Versus Forum relevant to Star Wars (and my point)? Does every game follow a canon policy like Star Wars? No. Is something like Street Fighter, or Mortal Kombat limited to only what LFL allows? No? Thought not, so...
Watch TPM again. Qui-Gon moves his lightsaber fast and his blows are light. Sure their not as fast as Yoda's but they are fast, clearly Ataru.
1.) I don't need to watch TPM to know that Qui-Gon is slow. He's not that fast, and he actually doesn't use just "light" blows. but that's irrelevant anyways, because...
2.) ...people utilize forms in all types of different manners (Yoda jumps like a cricket, Jinn doesn't, Maul uses TK in his Juyo, Mace is actually slow, etc.), your point collapses when we take that into account, and that it's a video game, and as we clearly know video games inaccurately portray lightsaber forms. Wow, great "evidence".
Clearly Ataru? Would you say Anakin in AOTC was using Ataru when he used two sabers against Dooku? Forms vary from person to person. Kenobi doesn't look like Qui-Gon, and same with Yoda. And I mean...
3.) ...you've never even played the game you are referring to. You got the information off wikipedia, and all it says is that "some fans have speculated, but no source states this".
Plus, wiki = fallible, third party source. Wow, great "source". Here's some facts:
FACT: "Speculating" in the manner you are doing it has never been accepted as fact. What I'm saying is that you cannot state Plo Koon uses Djem So just because "fans speculate" on move sets, because the keyword is "speculate".
Again, by your logic, it is fact that Exar uses Djem So because it looks like it, and same with Vodo and Soresu, and so on.
Is that fact, DS?
FACT: Hell no.
If I were to debate like you, I would say as fact that Shaak Ti must use Makashi because fans speculate that from a line in a novel. Then again, I don't debate like you (thank Buddha), and I realize that to state such as fact is fallacious, and flawed debating.
You have no argument. You are using what a player can do as evidence from a video game moveset. Guess what? It's definitely NOT cold-hard fact because you have no real evidence to support the claim, nor the game. And even worse, game forms are usually inaccurately portrayed. As well, there's always the fact just because something looks the part, doesn't mean it is. Especially with a game as evidence, this is pretty ridiculous to ass-ume.
If we go canonically, Plo shouldn't even be in that game, since he never had a part of the main storyline. So he wasn't really in on any of the missions anyway. And you cannot simply just look at his style and then guess what it looks like, you need proof. I could state what I think it looks like, then it's just your opinion vs mine.
Re: Plo Koon runs the gauntlet!
Originally posted by darthsith19
Plo in his prime. Anything goes. Gets full rest between battles. Assume that if no specification is given for the combatents in the gauntlet assume it's them in their primes.
1. TPM Kenobi
2. Jango Fett
3. Jastus Farr
4. Kit Fisto
5. Luminara Unduli
6. Sora Bulq
7. Cin Drallig
8. ROTS Kenobi
9. ROTS Dooku
10. Makes it
1. Wins
2. Wins
3. Wins
4. Might win, might lose. Fisto's good.
5. Same as with Fisto.
6. Probably will lose here.
7. Same as 6
8. Probably/Definately would lose here
9. Probably/Definately would lose here
10. Doubt it