Spider-Man, Venom, and Carnage vs. Hulk

Started by Sam Z7 pages
Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Accel
I find it funny when someone calls Hulk beating up a group of brawlers PIS and then tries to justify a symbiote taking over Surfer. 😂

Any way, just because it works on Surfer, doesn't mean it'll work on Hulk. That's the key point. Hulk's willpower is above Surfer's and he's overcome far worse than this before.

Not to mention he doesn't need to a thunderclap to deliver the same amount of force. A good ground-pound will certainly suffice as it'll produce the same concussive force and deafening noise.

You find it funny that Hulk beats the group of characters among which there are guys that beat him 1 on 1? 🙄 And that's not PIS for you? I'm not trying to justify anything, not you nor me know how powerfull influence of the symbiote is and we DO know that symbiote can controle anyone it bonds too. So you can't call that PIS if you have nothing to support it with. I on other hand can call that fight PIS because some of those guys are capable of taking down Hulk by themselvs.

Can you post scan of Hulk "deafing" somebody by pounding on the ground? Because from what I know it'd take him MUCH more noise to hurt symbiotes, especially Carnage that is almost immune to sound attacks.

My point stays the same as before. Trio win the fight.

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Sam Z
You find it funny that Hulk beats the group of characters among which there are guys that beat him 1 on 1? 🙄 And that's not PIS for you?

What, a group consisting of Hercules (who has never beaten Hulk). Wonder Man (same as Hercules), Iron Man (who has only beaten Hulk once when he was dazed from an explosion; not to mention has an overall crappy track record against Hulk), Namor (who only beat Hulk underwater AND was dehydrated) and a bunch of street-levelers taking a beating from Mindless Hulk is PIS?

Face it, PIS is the easiest thing for you to claim because you hate the idea of Hulk beating the trio.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I'm not trying to justify anything, not you nor me know how powerfull influence of the symbiote is and we DO know that symbiote can controle anyone it bonds too. So you can't call that PIS if you have nothing to support it with. I on other hand can call that fight PIS because some of those guys are capable of taking down Hulk by themselvs.

Surfer has resisted the likes of Mephisto and Moondragon w/ the Soul Gem and yet a symbiote taking him over makes more sense to you than Hulk beating on a group of brawlers?

Get that shit out of here.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Can you post scan of Hulk "deafing" somebody by pounding on the ground?

Don’t need to.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Because from what I know it'd take him MUCH more noise to hurt symbiotes, especially Carnage that is almost immune to sound attacks.

News Flash: you don’t need a weakness to sonics in order for a really loud noise to hurt you.
Originally posted by Sam Z
My point stays the same as before. Trio win the fight.

As I’m sure it always will, mainly based off the off-chance that the symbiote takes Hulk over.

Let's say it does. Then what? Hulk w/ the symbiote beats the shit out of Eddie, Cassady, and Spider-Man?

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Accel
What, a group consisting of Hercules (who has never beaten Hulk). Wonder Man (same as Hercules), Iron Man (who has only beaten Hulk once when he was dazed from an explosion; not to mention has an overall crappy track record against Hulk), Namor (who only beat Hulk underwater AND was dehydrated) and a bunch of street-levelers taking a beating from Mindless Hulk is PIS?
You said everything yourself. Three guys that beat Hulk by their own before teamed together with other guys that are physically equel to likes of Thing or Colossus. And suddenly they al got beaten. Now that's what I call pure PIS.
Originally posted by Accel

Face it, PIS is the easiest thing for you to claim because you hate the idea of Hulk beating the trio.

"face it"? "Hate the idea"? I have no problems with Hulk beating anyone and I actually like the green guy more than anyone of the guys you listed before but that clearly just PIS written story. I don't argue nor debate it. I just state a fact.
Originally posted by Accel

Surfer has resisted the likes of Mephisto and Moondragon w/ the Soul Gem and yet a symbiote taking him over makes more sense to you than Hulk beating on a group of brawlers?

And the only reason you don't want to believe that because symbiotes are "spider-man foes", right? PIS is something character is not supposed to do and you have no idea what mind controle ability level symbiotes have so you can't say if Carnage was supposed to be able to do that or not. And the only time he tried it worked.
Originally posted by Accel

Get that shit out of here.
There was no need for that.
Originally posted by Accel

Don’t need to.

News Flash: you don’t need a weakness to sonics in order for a really loud noise to hurt you.


News Flash: symbiotes are can only be hurt by high frequently sound and last time I chacked Reed Richard's sonic blaster >>>> pounding on the ground.
Originally posted by Accel

As I’m sure it always will, mainly based off the off-chance that the symbiote takes Hulk over.
Yep, and that's the point you couldn't disprove.
Originally posted by Accel

Let's say it does. Then what? Hulk w/ the symbiote beats the shit out of Eddie, Cassady, and Spider-Man?

Nope, in case you didn't knew it is symbiote who controles it's wearer. Venom's sumbiote was the only exception. And Carnage wouldn't have to live Cassidy, tendrils would work the same way. So Hulk would end up jumping onto the sun...

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Sam Z
You said everything yourself. Three guys that beat Hulk by their own before teamed together with other guys that are physically equel to likes of Thing or Colossus. And suddenly they al got beaten. Now that's what I call pure PIS.

You keep forgetting it was Mindless Hulk. Not the typical Hulk these guys usually fight. Not to mention being a team wrecker has always been Hulk's profession. He's been shown doing this multiple times.
Originally posted by Sam Z
"face it"? "Hate the idea"? I have no problems with Hulk beating anyone and I actually like the green guy more than anyone of the guys you listed before but that clearly just PIS written story. I don't argue nor debate it. I just state a fact.

Then try to come up with a better argument than PIS. By your own logic, the only time Hulk fought all these guys at once, he pounded them, so how can it be PIS? If you say it’s because they give him a good fight separately, then you also have to consider the Surfer/symbiote example where Surfer has resisted far more powerful forces than the symbiote and prevailed.

You can’t claim one incident to be PIS using certain logic and then ignore that logic to defend the other incident. It works both way.

Originally posted by Sam Z
And the only reason you don't want to believe that because symbiotes are "spider-man foes", right? PIS is something character is not supposed to do and you have no idea what mind controle ability level symbiotes have so you can't say if Carnage was supposed to be able to do that or not. And the only time he tried it worked.

And the vast majority of the time someone has tried to take over Hulk, he overcame it just fine… unless you’re going to argue that Venom and Carnage are more effective than all the psychics and cosmics that tried to control Hulk over the years and failed miserably?
Originally posted by Sam Z
News Flash: symbiotes are can only be hurt by high frequently sound and last time I chacked Reed Richard's sonic blaster >>>> pounding on the ground.

The sonic doesn’t also have the same effect as an explosion. Hulk pounding the ground can easily give off this effect.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5611033
Good luck dodging that.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Yep, and that's the point you couldn't disprove.

When Venom and Carnage show to be more influential than the likes of Onslaught, Galaxy Master, Shaper of Worlds, or any other others that tried to take over Hulk and failed, let me know (God I’m starting to sound like Golem).
Originally posted by Sam Z

Nope, in case you didn't knew it is symbiote who controles it's wearer. Venom's sumbiote was the only exception. And Carnage wouldn't have to live Cassidy, tendrils would work the same way. So Hulk would end up jumping onto the sun...

Good luck trying to control multiple personalities at once. Didn’t Venom once go mad because something like that?

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Accel
You keep forgetting it was Mindless Hulk. Not the typical Hulk these guys usually fight. Not to mention being a team wrecker has always been Hulk's profession. He's been shown doing this multiple times.
"team wrecker" is a weak excuse. Comicbooks characters always do better against teams so the fight would look more interesting. The same why Spider-man was able to hold himself against x-men and ff but at the same time he has problems with Wolverine alone. This argument is not better, he has been beaten by IM and twice by Namor as far as I remember etc etc This fight IS PIS, just accept it.
Originally posted by Accel

Then try to come up with a better argument than PIS. By your own logic, the only time Hulk fought all these guys at once, he pounded them, so how can it be PIS? If you say it’s because they give him a good fight separately, then you also have to consider the Surfer/symbiote example where Surfer has resisted far more powerful forces than the symbiote and prevailed.

You can’t claim one incident to be PIS using certain logic and then ignore that logic to defend the other incident. It works both way.

It only works both way if you take my logic and change it in your favour. The ONLY time symbiote tried to bond with such powerfull being was that time. And it worked. And you have no other examples to compare it with. And you have no idea how powerfull symbiote's mind controle ability is. So you can't judge if it was supposed to happen or not. In case of Hulk we can look at his fights with these guys 1 on 1 and we DO know that Hulk was beaten 1 on 1 so when he takes all together it's easy to figure out that it was not supposed to happen. Plain and simple.
Originally posted by Accel

And the vast majority of the time someone has tried to take over Hulk, he overcame it just fine… unless you’re going to argue that Venom and Carnage are more effective than all the psychics and cosmics that tried to control Hulk over the years and failed miserably?
It all depends on the messures and ways to controle. Hulk might have good resistance to telepathy, but it doesn't mean that symbiote that bonds to him and merges with his brains wont be able to effect him. Besides it's not the same TP that Hulk resisted before.
Originally posted by Accel

The sonic doesn’t also have the same effect as an explosion. Hulk pounding the ground can easily give off this effect.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5611033
Good luck dodging that.
So you post picture of explosion? And? It doesn't look like a sonicboom to me. Building started to collapse because ground was shaking, and it's not a threat.
If you hope that explosion would do the thing then look here.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086373
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086376
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086383
With NO effect.
And one more thing. It's not only Hulk will have to perform this useless attack, but he'll have to perform it faster than it takes bullet to fly few feets. Because that's how much time it takes tendtils to get to his brains.
And Hulk is not that fast.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7075503

Originally posted by Accel

When Venom and Carnage show to be more influential than the likes of Onslaught, Galaxy Master, Shaper of Worlds, or any other others that tried to take over Hulk and failed, let me know (God I’m starting to sound like Golem).
When you'll be able to prove that example to be PIS let me know, because this attack differs from ordinary tp attack and SS example only proves that.
Originally posted by Accel

Good luck trying to control multiple personalities at once. Didn’t Venom once go mad because something like that?

Multiple persons? You mean Hulk and Banner? 😕 And no, nothing like that ever happend, i believe you are talking about the madess books, but it was virus...

And few examples of his mind controle thing.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086456
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled05vo6.jpg
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled06uj6.jpg
http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled07vl7.jpg
These scans prove that it's not an ordinary tp and it might be more effective than distance TP of lowlever telepaths that Hulk was able to resist.

Dinalfos Lord Caco

It only works both way if you take my logic and change it in your favour. The ONLY time symbiote tried to bond with such powerfull being was that time. And it worked. And you have no other examples to compare it with. And you have no idea how powerfull symbiote's mind controle ability is. So you can't judge if it was supposed to happen or not. In case of Hulk we can look at his fights with these guys 1 on 1 and we DO know that Hulk was beaten 1 on 1 so when he takes all together it's easy to figure out that it was not supposed to happen. Plain and simple.

This is the same unthoughtful crap people keep spewing. You should realize that there are plenty of differences between various Hulk incarnations. These differences DO matter. Gravage Hulk is in no way comparable to, say, Mindless Hulk. Something tells me you haven't read any of the stories you try to use as evidence.

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Dinalfos

This is the same unthoughtful crap people keep spewing. You should realize that there are plenty of differences between various Hulk incarnations. These differences DO matter. Gravage Hulk is in no way comparable to, say, Mindless Hulk. Something tells me you haven't read any of the stories you try to use as evidence.

It actually wasn't me who brought that fight. The only evidence I brought was SS example and it doesn't look PIS to me only because it's covinient to somebody that way.

StarsNeverFall7 Senior Member

The trio sounds like a good combination, but ill have to agree with others and give this to the hulk. Hulk is far from slow, hes notorious for catching rockets from tanks, slapping bullets away, etc. Hes no quicksilver or flash, but he isnt the Blob either. The trio together barely matches his strength and his entry level, let alone when he gets angered. The trio would stand a chance if there were able to keep a distance, but once they got close enough for big green to get his hands on them, its would be over with a quickness.

Though there are circumstances where the trio could win, I give it to hulk 7/10

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Sam Z
"team wrecker" is a weak excuse. Comicbooks characters always do better against teams so the fight would look more interesting. The same why Spider-man was able to hold himself against x-men and ff but at the same time he has problems with Wolverine alone. This argument is not better, he has been beaten by IM and twice by Namor as far as I remember etc etc This fight IS PIS, just accept it.

Please, you ignore every thing that matters just so you can call that fight PIS. You ignore that the only times Namor has beaten Hulk were underwater. You ignore that Namor was dehydrated in the dessert heat in that fight. You ignore that Iron Man only beat Hulk when he was already disoriented and confused. You ignore all the other times Iron Man failed to stand up to Hulk and yet that one defining moment where he beat him wasn’t PIS (fancy that). You ignore that this Hulk was much more powerful than most incarnations that any of them have ever faced.

You ignore all this just to claim that the fight you didn’t like was PIS. It wasn’t. It isn’t. Get over it.

Originally posted by Sam Z
It only works both way if you take my logic and change it in your favour. The ONLY time symbiote tried to bond with such powerfull being was that time. And it worked. And you have no other examples to compare it with. And you have no idea how powerfull symbiote's mind controle ability is. So you can't judge if it was supposed to happen or not. In case of Hulk we can look at his fights with these guys 1 on 1 and we DO know that Hulk was beaten 1 on 1 so when he takes all together it's easy to figure out that it was not supposed to happen. Plain and simple.

All right, the only time I saw Daredevil fight Venom, he beat him. Going by your logic, since I have nothing to compare it to, I guess DD would take the majority over Venom.

Any way, I’m not comparing the Surfer incident to other times the symbiote may have failed, I’m comparing the symbiote to the like of Mephisto. I’m comparing it to Reed Richards w/ the Soul Gem. Basically people far the symbiote on the power scale to people Surfer HAS resisted.

Originally posted by Sam Z
It all depends on the messures and ways to controle. Hulk might have good resistance to telepathy, but it doesn't mean that symbiote that bonds to him and merges with his brains wont be able to effect him. Besides it's not the same TP that Hulk resisted before.

It doesn’t have to be the same. If it’s not a effective as the people I listed earlier, it’s not going to do squat.
Originally posted by Sam Z
So you post picture of explosion? And?

An explosion caused by She-Hulk punching Titania. If she can do THAT just by punching something, imagine what Hulk can do.
Originally posted by Sam Z
It doesn't look like a sonicboom to me. Building started to collapse because ground was shaking, and it's not a threat.

It was enough to damage the area around them. I’d consider that something to not take lightly.
Originally posted by Sam Z
If you hope that explosion would do the thing then look here.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086373
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086376
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086383
With NO effect.

It knocked him back. It knocked him off balance for some seconds. Same as it will do here.

Especially if the tactic is repeated multiple times.

Originally posted by Sam Z
And one more thing. It's not only Hulk will have to perform this useless attack, but he'll have to perform it faster than it takes bullet to fly few feets. Because that's how much time it takes tendtils to get to his brains.
And Hulk is not that fast.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7075503

He is, however, more than foot away form Venom as opposed to the girl in that pic. Plenty of distance for him to make his move without worrying about defending himself.
Originally posted by Sam Z
When you'll be able to prove that example to be PIS let me know, because this attack differs from ordinary tp attack and SS example only proves that.

I love how you ignored the point I made here and just went right back to saying the Surfer/Carnage incident wasn’t PIS.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Multiple persons? You mean Hulk and Banner? 😕

And Prof. Hulk. And Fixit. And Savage Hulk. Not to mention the hundreds of incarnations that haven’t even been awakened in Bruce’s mind yet.

I’d like to see how the symbiote would react if it ever comes across the Guilt Hulk in Banner’s mind.

Originally posted by Sam Z
And few examples of his mind controle thing.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7086456
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled05vo6.jpg
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled06uj6.jpg
http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled07vl7.jpg
These scans prove that it's not an ordinary tp and it might be more effective than distance TP of lowlever telepaths that Hulk was able to resist.

It was controlling his body. Not going to work on Hulk.

And guys like Onslaught and Shaper of Worlds are far from “low-level telepaths.”

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Accel
Please, you ignore every thing that matters just so you can call that fight PIS. You ignore that the only times Namor has beaten Hulk were underwater. You ignore that Namor was dehydrated in the dessert heat in that fight. You ignore that Iron Man only beat Hulk when he was already disoriented and confused. You ignore all the other times Iron Man failed to stand up to Hulk and yet that one defining moment where he beat him wasn’t PIS (fancy that). You ignore that this Hulk was much more powerful than most incarnations that any of them have ever faced.

You ignore all this just to claim that the fight you didn’t like was PIS. It wasn’t. It isn’t. Get over it.

😆 I ignore what? Disorientation and being confused has nothing to do with Hulk's durability and healing factor. Sorry, but the truth is that you are making excuses just to claim that the fight you like isn't PIS. And pretending that I'm ignoring something wont help your argument. And once again, i have no problem with any Hulk's fights and I do not "like" or hate it. I state the fact. He beat a team of many characters among whom there are guys that can take him one on one. And the only thing you could do is making excuses like that Hulk is a team wrecker.
That fight was PIS, accept it.

Originally posted by Accel

All right, the only time I saw Daredevil fight Venom, he beat him. Going by your logic, since I have nothing to compare it to, I guess DD would take the majority over Venom.
Nope, we still can compare. First of all Daredevil didn't beat Venom. He punched him few times, Venom wasn't knoedout and was more talking than fighting. Second, Spider-man who is basiclybetter than DD in every aspect can't beat Venom h2h. So we still can compare. Pervering my logic wont help your argument.
Originally posted by Accel

Any way, I’m not comparing the Surfer incident to other times the symbiote may have failed, I’m comparing the symbiote to the like of Mephisto. I’m comparing it to Reed Richards w/ the Soul Gem. Basically people far the symbiote on the power scale to people Surfer HAS resisted.
Why don't you compare him to Juggernaut then? 🙄 I'm now not talking about power level of characters in general, but about one certain attack, that was never used against SS before, and when it was used it effected him.
Originally posted by Accel

It doesn’t have to be the same. If it’s not a effective as the people I listed earlier, it’s not going to do squat.
Because it'd prove that Hulk loses the fight? Very convinient...
Originally posted by Accel

An explosion caused by She-Hulk punching Titania. If she can do THAT just by punching something, imagine what Hulk can do.

Explosion and fire can't be caused by punches alone, no matter how hard they are, there had to be something that blew up, otherwise it just makes no sense. And Hulk can't do a thing he'll have to do it faster than tendrils move and because even if he does it won't hurt anyone in the team, well may be Spider-man a little. But it defenitely ain't gonna work as a sound attack. And c'mone Titania? The one that got owned by Spider-man?
Originally posted by Accel

It was enough to damage the area around them. I’d consider that something to not take lightly.
As i said before, earthquakes are not going to make the job done.

Originally posted by Accel

I love how you ignored the point I made here and just went right back to saying the Surfer/Carnage incident wasn’t PIS.

I love how you like pretending that i ignore something to come up with excuses, like in case of the PIS fight. And your points doesn't seem that convincing to me.
Originally posted by Accel

And Prof. Hulk. And Fixit. And Savage Hulk. Not to mention the hundreds of incarnations that haven’t even been awakened in Bruce’s mind yet.

I’d like to see how the symbiote would react if it ever comes across the Guilt Hulk in Banner’s mind.


Sorry, but incornations that haven't been awakened yet are not gonna do anything to Carnage or Venom. By the way the virus i mentioned added three more personalities to Venom, and he did just fine. Grew more four hands to help him in a fight...
Originally posted by Accel

It was controlling his body. Not going to work on Hulk.

It was controling HIM, not his muscles. So yes it'll gonna work.
Originally posted by Accel

And guys like Onslaught and Shaper of Worlds are far from “low-level telepaths.”
Ok, doesn't change anything since symbiot bonding isn't telepathy.
Originally posted by Accel

It knocked him back. It knocked him off balance for some seconds. Same as it will do here.
Missile knocked him back and exposion and dozen granades didn't do sh!t to him. He was back on feet in a second. Even granades that were specially designed to BURN symbiote didn't do it. What makes you think that will work? And especially what makes you think Hulk will be able to cause exposion at all? Because as i said before it is only possible if there is something that'd blow up. And earthquakes are not a threat.
Originally posted by Accel

Especially if the tactic is repeated multiple times.
Originally posted by Accel

He is, however, more than foot away form Venom as opposed to the girl in that pic. Plenty of distance for him to make his move without worrying about defending himself.

Ok, don't like this example, check this one.
Tendril moved faster than bullet. When Hulk will learn to move and react that fast let me know.

StarsNeverFall7 Senior Member

Like has been stated before hulk has been known for catching missles fired from tanks and throwing them back, slapping bullets down mid air, etc. Far from slow in the speed department. The Hulk/Bruce Banner's mind is screwed up beyond comparision, withholding the most scrweed up of human emotions, things serial killers dont even conjur lie within his head in numerous personalities. This isnt a 3 or 4 people persona its over 20 of the darkest things you can possibly imagine, not to mention enough hatred to fuel the universe. Alien symboites or not, they might get in but couldnt handle the mess of banners mind, same reason why most telepaths stay away from it.

Spider-Man last I checked wasnt a known master in numerous different types of martial arts, therefore his H2H shouldnt be near DareDevil, Batman, Wolverine, etc.

Were talking about Hulk, the big green guy who took out Onslaught. Onslaught the guy who managed to manhandle damn near the entire marvel universe. He takes these three easily.

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Sam Z
😆 I ignore what?

Pretty much every thing, it seems. Apparently you ignored every stipulation of the Avengers battle just to claim once again that you believe it’s PIS.

I was hoping for a better argument, but I’m hoping in vain.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Disorientation and being confused has nothing to do with Hulk's durability and healing factor.

In this case it did. And I find it funny that you claim every thing BUT this PIS, when Hulk’s durability has shown to be far above IM’s levels time and time again.
Originally posted by Sam Z
And pretending that I'm ignoring something wont help your argument.
.

I’m not pretending any thing. You see a dehydrated Namor have trouble with who’s strength had already increased significantly Hulk and shout, “PIS! I’ve seen Namor knock Hulk out underwater!”
Originally posted by Sam Z
He beat a team of many characters among whom there are guys that can take him one on one. And the only thing you could do is making excuses like that Hulk is a team wrecker.
That fight was PIS, accept it.

One only knocked him out underwater and another knocked him out using every thing he had with a lucky shot. Savage Hulk has manhandled those two on other occasions, Iron Man moreso. And Hercules and Wonder Man, or are stronger than Namor and Iron Man respectively, have NEVER knocked him out.

And I know this hard to grasp, but this was Mindless Hulk. His strength had already increased significantly. Find a better argument. This one’s just getting monotonous.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Nope, we still can compare. First of all Daredevil didn't beat Venom. He punched him few times, Venom wasn't knoedout and was more talking than fighting. Second, Spider-man who is basiclybetter than DD in every aspect can't beat Venom h2h. So we still can compare. Pervering my logic wont help your argument.

Which is no different whatsoever to comparing the symbiote’s mind-control over the powerhouses I listed earlier.

I don’t have to perverse any thing. Your best argument is claiming PIS. Whoop-ee.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Why don't you compare him to Juggernaut then? 🙄 I'm now not talking about power level of characters in general, but about one certain attack, that was never used against SS before, and when it was used it effected him.

The hell does Juggernaut have to do with any thing?
Originally posted by Sam Z
Because it'd prove that Hulk loses the fight? Very convinient...

No, it’s just logic. Logic which you failed to disprove, but of course the symbiote must have better luck than Onslaught. 😂
Originally posted by Sam Z
Explosion and fire can't be caused by punches alone, no matter how hard they are, there had to be something that blew up, otherwise it just makes no sense. And Hulk can't do a thing he'll have to do it faster than tendrils move and because even if he does it won't hurt anyone in the team, well may be Spider-man a little. But it defenitely ain't gonna work as a sound attack. And c'mone Titania? The one that got owned by Spider-man?
As i said before, earthquakes are not going to make the job done.

It produced a great shockwave that CAN knock the trio off balance and most likely even take out Spidey.

This Titania was wearing the Power Gem, which enhanced her strength so greatly she was manhandling the Avengers and FF4.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I love how you like pretending that i ignore something to come up with excuses, like in case of the PIS fight. And your points doesn't seem that convincing to me.

Yeah, thanks for proving me wrong in my previous point then. 🤣
Originally posted by Sam Z
It was controling HIM, not his muscles. So yes it'll gonna work.

You say it’s going to work on Hulk just because it’s worked on some nameless human? Please.

Hulk’s willpower has proven stronger than the mental strength of an entire town’s worth of people.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Ok, doesn't change anything since symbiot bonding isn't telepathy.

It’s still mind-control, the same damn thing I’ve been telling you doesn’t work on Hulk.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Missile knocked him back and exposion and dozen granades didn't do sh!t to him. He was back on feet in a second. Even granades that were specially designed to BURN symbiote didn't do it. What makes you think that will work? And especially what makes you think Hulk will be able to cause exposion at all? Because as i said before it is only possible if there is something that'd blow up. And earthquakes are not a threat.

You missed the point entirely. Shockwaves will knock them back. They will beknocked off balance. They won’t be so untouchable then.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Ok, don't like this example, check this one.
Tendril moved faster than bullet. When Hulk will learn to move and react that fast let me know.

Again, he was just couple of feet away from the bullet. Meanwhile, the guy the symbiote goes after in that picture has enough time to run a few feet.

Again, plenty of time for Hulk to slam his hands on the ground.

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Accel
Pretty much every thing, it seems. Apparently you ignored every stipulation of the Avengers battle just to claim once again that you believe it’s PIS.

I was hoping for a better argument, but I’m hoping in vain.

In this case it did. And I find it funny that you claim every thing BUT this PIS, when Hulk’s durability has shown to be far above IM’s levels time and time again.

doh This is hopeless. I tell you the fight was PIS, you say it wasn't only because you liked it. I explain why it is PIS, you tell me that I'm ignoring something. But the truth is that the only person that ignores something it is you. Hulk has better durability, ok. IM still KOed him, you ignore that. Namor knocked him out, under water or not doesn't matter. It's a fact. You ignore that too. Add few more characters with strength level that equels Namor and Hulk suddenly wins. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. 🙄
Originally posted by Accel

I’m not pretending any thing. You see a dehydrated Namor have trouble with who’s strength had already increased significantly Hulk and shout, “PIS! I’ve seen Namor knock Hulk out underwater!”

Originally posted by Accel
One only knocked him out underwater and another knocked him out using every thing he had with a lucky shot. Savage Hulk has manhandled those two on other occasions, Iron Man moreso. And Hercules and Wonder Man, or are stronger than Namor and Iron Man respectively, have NEVER knocked him out.
So you want to use A > B > C logic now? On this ocasion, on that ocasion. Doesn't matter!
Fact #1 - IM koed Hulk before
Fact #2 - Namor koed Hulk before
Team of many characters with simillar strength have their chance of koing Hulk multipled.
And all you could say is that the fight is no PIS because Hulk is a teamwrecker.
Originally posted by Accel

And I know this hard to grasp, but this was Mindless Hulk. His strength had already increased significantly. Find a better argument. This one’s just getting monotonous.
How about you first accept this argument because unlike your it atleast makes sense.

Originally posted by Accel

Which is no different whatsoever to comparing the symbiote’s mind-control over the powerhouses I listed earlier.
Actually it IS different. In case of DD we compare same aspects of powers. Strength, speed, durability. Give me scans of SS resisting bonding with symbiote then you have a point. And btw just remembered, that fight wasn't the only fight with Daredevil. Venom almost killed both him and Spider-man at the same time. Same Carnage. Compare this.
Originally posted by Accel

I don’t have to perverse any thing. Your best argument is claiming PIS. Whoop-ee.
My argument is stating a fact, your on other hand is justifying clearly PIS fight only because you like it.

Originally posted by Accel

The hell does Juggernaut have to do with any thing?

...
The point is that to be sure if that was supposed to happen or not we must have any other example of the character resisting simillar attack which we do not have.
Originally posted by Accel

No, it’s just logic. Logic which you failed to disprove, but of course the symbiote must have better luck than Onslaught. 😂

Logic, is something i haven't noticed in any of your posts. Seems you give win to the character you love better, so i haven't failed to disprove anything. Anf if you'll keep using ABC logic i can say that Venom was able to hold his own against Juggernaut three times. Against someone who'd kick Hulk's a$$ by the way.
Originally posted by Accel

It produced a great shockwave that CAN knock the trio off balance and most likely even take out Spidey.
So how do you explain exposion? Shockwave is nothing compared to dozen punches from Juggernaut and again, Hulk is not quick enough to perform anything of that kind before tendrils reach him.
Originally posted by Accel

This Titania was wearing the Power Gem, which enhanced her strength so greatly she was manhandling the Avengers and FF4.
Well, ok.
Originally posted by Accel

Yeah, thanks for proving me wrong in my previous point then. 🤣
You mean earthquake-kills-all point? Oh don't mention it.😗

Originally posted by Accel

You say it’s going to work on Hulk just because it’s worked on some nameless human? Please.
No, i said that symbiote was controling the guy and not just moving his body.
Originally posted by Accel

Hulk’s willpower has proven stronger than the mental strength of an entire town’s worth of people.

Originally posted by Accel

It’s still mind-control, the same damn thing I’ve been telling you doesn’t work on Hulk.
It does. Hulk just has good resistance to it. And in the past Hulk was shown only to have resistance to telepathy, just like SS. And as i said before it is not tp.
Originally posted by Accel

You missed the point entirely. Shockwaves will knock them back. They will beknocked off balance. They won’t be so untouchable then.
Ok let's for a second assume Hulk'd move faster than bullets moves and perform that shockwave thing. It'll send all trio flying many feets back. Next what? While Hulk stops pounding on the ground and run at any of them to grab they all will be back on their feet already and here goes symbiote attack again. Anyway, it all doesn't matter since Hulk wont be able to do anything like that before dozens tendrils from both symbiotes reach him.
Originally posted by Accel

Again, he was just couple of feet away from the bullet. Meanwhile, the guy the symbiote goes after in that picture has enough time to run a few feet.
Few feet? Scan only shows him making one small move. And why do you even look at the guy? Bullet was fired few feet away from the symbiote. He chased it and cought it. Proves that tendrils move faster than bullets fly. And faster than it'd take Hulk to create a shockwave to knock them back.
Originally posted by Accel

Again, plenty of time for Hulk to slam his hands on the ground.
Time that takes bullet to fly few feet. Yeah, plenty...

Anyway, my point stays the same. With thunderclap Hulk obviously wins.
Without it, loses.

Brutacus Senior Member

Controlling hulk is a big problem even for people like Apocalipse.
And I believe someone with celetial tech has a better change than two aliens.

Dinalfos Lord Caco
Originally posted by Sam Z
doh This is hopeless. I tell you the fight was PIS, you say it wasn't only because you liked it. I explain why it is PIS, you tell me that I'm ignoring something. But the truth is that the only person that ignores something it is you. Hulk has better durability, ok. IM still KOed him, you ignore that. Namor knocked him out, under water or not doesn't matter. It's a fact. You ignore that too. Add few more characters with strength level that equels Namor and Hulk suddenly wins. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. 🙄

Once again, you are ignoring the nuances. Maybe you are the one who likes Venom a little too much?

Rewmac {--Classic Member--}

Current Hulk takes this all the way.

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Sam Z
doh This is hopeless. I tell you the fight was PIS, you say it wasn't only because you liked it. I explain why it is PIS, you tell me that I'm ignoring something. But the truth is that the only person that ignores something it is you. Hulk has better durability, ok. IM still KOed him, you ignore that. Namor knocked him out, under water or not doesn't matter. It's a fact. You ignore that too. Add few more characters with strength level that equels Namor and Hulk suddenly wins. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. 🙄

That’s because you ARE ingnoring many things. I even presented you a list of the stipulations and you still claim it was PIS because Iron Man and Namor each knocked out Hulk once under different circumstances.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Fact #1 - IM koed Hulk before

With a lucky shot on a dazzled and confused Hulk and used his entire power source to do so.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Fact #2 - Namor koed Hulk before

Underwater. And in that other fight, he dehydrated. Do you even know what that means?
Originally posted by Sam Z
Team of many characters with simillar strength have their chance of koing Hulk multipled.
And all you could say is that the fight is no PIS because Hulk is a teamwrecker.

I’ve said many reasons. You keep ignoring them and go back to the same lame arguments over and over.
Originally posted by Sam Z
How about you first accept this argument because unlike your it atleast makes sense.

What the whole “symbiotes take him over even though most others have failed?”

Or “that is PIS, no matter what the stipulations were?”

Originally posted by Sam Z
Actually it IS different. In case of DD we compare same aspects of powers. Strength, speed, durability. Give me scans of SS resisting bonding with symbiote then you have a point. And btw just remembered, that fight wasn't the only fight with Daredevil. Venom almost killed both him and Spider-man at the same time. Same Carnage. Compare this.

All right, DD always holds his own against Spidey, even displaying agility right on par with Spidey’s. Then we have guys like Cap and Wolverine who are also able to easily keep up with Spidey. Going by comparisons, I guess all these guys are on Peter’s level.
Originally posted by Sam Z
My argument is stating a fact, your on other hand is justifying clearly PIS fight only because you like it.

And I’ve stated several facts as to why it wasn’t PIS.

This is like talking to someone with their fingers in their ears and shouting to avoid listening.

Originally posted by Sam Z
[QUOTE=7706887]Originally posted by Sam Z
Logic, is something i haven't noticed in any of your posts. Seems you give win to the character you love better, so i haven't failed to disprove anything. Anf if you'll keep using ABC logic i can say that Venom was able to hold his own against Juggernaut three times. Against someone who'd kick Hulk's a$$ by the way.

Hulk does just fine against Juggernaut.

And bringing up who each character has done well against isn’t going to get us any where.

Originally posted by Sam Z
So how do you explain exposion? Shockwave is nothing compared to dozen punches from Juggernaut and again, Hulk is not quick enough to perform anything of that kind before tendrils reach him.

Reading comprehension is your friend. 😐

“It produced a great shockwave that CAN knock the trio off balance and most likely even take out Spidey.”

Originally posted by Sam Z
You mean earthquake-kills-all point? Oh don't mention it.😗

Wow, you really don’t read opposing arguments very well, huh? 😂

I pointed out he’s resisted much more formidable than two symbiotes. You have yet to point out how they will succeed where the others fail.

Originally posted by Sam Z
It does. Hulk just has good resistance to it. And in the past Hulk was shown only to have resistance to telepathy, just like SS. And as i said before it is not tp.

He’s resisted mind-tampering that wasn’t tp plenty of times.

Hell, recently, in his current weakened state, he was infected with spores that started taking him over from the inside. He overcame it.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Ok let's for a second assume Hulk'd move faster than bullets moves and perform that shockwave thing. It'll send all trio flying many feets back. Next what? While Hulk stops pounding on the ground and run at any of them to grab they all will be back on their feet already and here goes symbiote attack again. Anyway, it all doesn't matter since Hulk wont be able to do anything like that before dozens tendrils from both symbiotes reach him.

It can very well have the same reaction as the thunderclap. Continuous shock waves, maybe throw stuff at them while they’re knocked down.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Time that takes bullet to fly few feet. Yeah, plenty...

Time it takes for a man to run a few feet, yes.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Anyway, my point stays the same. With thunderclap Hulk obviously wins.
Without it, loses.

And a ground slam can be almost as effective as a thunderclap.

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Accel
That’s because you ARE ingnoring many things. I even presented you a list of the stipulations and you still claim it was PIS because Iron Man and Namor each knocked out Hulk once under different circumstances.
I thinkyou just do not get it, right? Let's see. You said i ignore that Hulk is stronger and more durable than IM and Namor. But the problem is that you do not see the whole picture. I never said that IM is more durable or stronger. And we are talking not about fight with IM alone but with a team of superheroes. I do NOT ignore anything, i simply understand that it is not important because he fought a TEAM, you just like pretending that i ignore something. Well you ignore the fact that he fought a team, and whenever i ask you to give a reason why it's not PIS you say he beat them one on one before and whine that I ignore something. 🙄
I'll say that again, hopefully one last time and you'd finally notice it. Guys like IM and Namor are able to hold their own against Hulk and even beat him sometimes in 1 on 1 fight. Team of superheroes with strength comparable or greater than Namor's would wreck Hulk if even one character of the team is capable of that. Now i dare you to explain why this isn't PIS and this time try not to switch subject on who is more durable Hulk or Ironman and stop pretending that I ignore something.

Originally posted by Accel

With a lucky shot on a dazzled and confused Hulk and used his entire power source to do so.
Excuses. IM did it, team was supposed to do that too but much easier.
Originally posted by Accel

Underwater. And in that other fight, he dehydrated. Do you even know what that means?
Do you even understand that i don't care if it was underwater or in outer space. He beat him and it's a fact.
Originally posted by Accel

I’ve said many reasons. You keep ignoring them and go back to the same lame arguments over and over.
You haven't stated a single reason why the fight against team wasn't PIS. You only said why Hulk is capable of beating them 1 on 1 and it was never a secret to me anyway.
Originally posted by Accel

What the whole “symbiotes take him over even though most others have failed?”
Or “that is PIS, no matter what the stipulations were?”
No, that Hulk losing to one chatacter and then beating a group of characters wih simillar strength and durabily is bs. And that he never had to resist bonding with an alien symbiote, that is different from mind controlling attacks he had to deal with before.

Originally posted by Accel

All right, DD always holds his own against Spidey, even displaying agility right on par with Spidey’s. Then we have guys like Cap and Wolverine who are also able to easily keep up with Spidey. Going by comparisons, I guess all these guys are on Peter’s level.

😂 What's your intention? To keep bringing abc logic untill i realise that this is hopeless to talk to you, get tired of this and quit? DD can keep up with Spider-man but it's also a fact that Spider-man is capable of dodging things and oppoenets multiple times faster than dd. So Cap's case is more an exception than a fact. See, you still have LOTS of things to compare it with. In the SS case, you haven't.
Originally posted by Accel

And I’ve stated several facts as to why it wasn’t PIS.

Umm.... No, you actually haven't.
Originally posted by Accel

This is like talking to someone with their fingers in their ears and shouting to avoid listening.
Man, talking to you is as effective as talking to a wall, so who's talking...
Originally posted by Accel

Hulk does just fine against Juggernaut.
Yes, so? So does Venom. Here goes your abc logic.
Originally posted by Accel

And bringing up who each character has done well against isn’t going to get us any where.
I don't want to sound childish now, but you started it. And i think that's the only thing i agree with you about.
Originally posted by Accel

Reading comprehension is your friend. 😐

“It produced a great shockwave [b]that CAN knock the trio off balance and most likely even take out Spidey.”[/B]

Ok, i'll repeat. "shockwave" is not going to do a thing to symbiotes. Probably would hurt Spider-man a bit but he'd be back on his feet in the time that it'd take Hulk to reach him after he performed this attack. And anyway won't be able to perform it faster than tendrils reach him. Yeah, yeah and what did you expect? You repeat your old argument once again, i repeat the same thing i used last time to counter it.
Originally posted by Accel

Wow, you really don’t read opposing arguments very well, huh? 😂
Actually i do, but they are simillar to your old arguments i replied long ago. That's the reason I sit in front of my computer and torture my keyboard by repeatig same things many times...
Originally posted by Accel

I pointed out he’s resisted much more formidable than two symbiotes. You have yet to point out how they will succeed where the others fail.
And what do you mean by "formidable"? Nucelear exposion is more formidable than symbiotes. But this alone doesn't prove that he can resist bonding. And who "others" tried to make a symbiotic bonding with Hulk to become one with him?
Originally posted by Accel

He’s resisted mind-tampering that wasn’t tp plenty of times.
Can you show scans? And I'd also like to see SS scans resisting attack that is not tp and is simillar to bonding with symbiote.
Originally posted by Accel

Hell, recently, in his current weakened state, he was infected with spores that started taking him over from the inside. He overcame it.
Seems that you are just trying to make this thing sound like a simillar attack. Taking over from the inside. It sounds more like virus to me.

Originally posted by Accel

And a ground slam can be almost as effective as a thunderclap.

Originally posted by Accel

It can very well have the same reaction as the thunderclap. Continuous shock waves, maybe throw stuff at them while they’re knocked down.
And very loud noise is the only way for him to take them down. He could've done that with a thunderclap. But it's not allowed. Hell, i doubt even thunderclap would've worked on Carnage. And it certanly take MUCH louder and high friquent sound attack to take symbiotes down than just pounding on the ground.
Originally posted by Accel

Time it takes for a man to run a few feet, yes.
😂 Nice way of debating. You want me to give you states of bullets speed or something? Spare our time and simply look at the picture again. The guy only moved his torso a bit and it doesn't matter. The fact is that tendril chased and cought a bullet after it was fired. Sorry, but Hulk is not that quick.

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Once again, you are ignoring the nuances. Maybe you are the one who likes Venom a little too much?

Well, yeah I do, but i actually have not only Venom but a team of characters and I simply state my opinion. And I do not ignore nuances. IMO the only way for Hulk to take them all down is with a thunderclap. And it's not allowed.

Accel Senior Member

Originally posted by Sam Z
I thinkyou just do not get it, right? Let's see. You said i ignore that Hulk is stronger and more durable than IM and Namor. But the problem is that you do not see the whole picture. I never said that IM is more durable or stronger. And we are talking not about fight with IM alone but with a team of superheroes. I do NOT ignore anything, i simply understand that it is not important because he fought a TEAM, you just like pretending that i ignore something. Well you ignore the fact that he fought a team, and whenever i ask you to give a reason why it's not PIS you say he beat them one on one before and whine that I ignore something. 🙄
I'll say that again, hopefully one last time and you'd finally notice it. Guys like IM and Namor are able to hold their own against Hulk and even beat him sometimes in [B]1 on 1 fight. Team of superheroes with strength comparable or greater than Namor's would wreck Hulk if even one character of the team is capable of that. Now i dare you to explain why this isn't PIS and this time try not to switch subject on who is more durable Hulk or Ironman and stop pretending that I ignore something.

Excuses. IM did it, team was supposed to do that too but much easier.
Do you even understand that i don't care if it was underwater or in outer space. He beat him and it's a fact.
You haven't stated a single reason why the fight against team wasn't PIS. You only said why Hulk is capable of beating them 1 on 1 and it was never a secret to me anyway.
No, that Hulk losing to one chatacter and then beating a group of characters wih simillar strength and durabily is bs. And that he never had to resist bonding with an alien symbiote, that is different from mind controlling attacks he had to deal with before.

😂 What's your intention? To keep bringing abc logic untill i realise that this is hopeless to talk to you, get tired of this and quit? DD can keep up with Spider-man but it's also a fact that Spider-man is capable of dodging things and oppoenets multiple times faster than dd. So Cap's case is more an exception than a fact. See, you still have LOTS of things to compare it with. In the SS case, you haven't.

Umm.... No, you actually haven't.
Man, talking to you is as effective as talking to a wall, so who's talking...
Yes, so? So does Venom. Here goes your abc logic.
I don't want to sound childish now, but you started it. And i think that's the only thing i agree with you about.
Ok, i'll repeat. "shockwave" is not going to do a thing to symbiotes. Probably would hurt Spider-man a bit but he'd be back on his feet in the time that it'd take Hulk to reach him after he performed this attack. And anyway won't be able to perform it faster than tendrils reach him. Yeah, yeah and what did you expect? You repeat your old argument once again, i repeat the same thing i used last time to counter it.
Actually i do, but they are simillar to your old arguments i replied long ago. That's the reason I sit in front of my computer and torture my keyboard by repeatig same things many times...
And what do you mean by "formidable"? Nucelear exposion is more formidable than symbiotes. But this alone doesn't prove that he can resist bonding. And who "others" tried to make a symbiotic bonding with Hulk to become one with him?
Can you show scans? And I'd also like to see SS scans resisting attack that is not tp and is simillar to bonding with symbiote.
Seems that you are just trying to make this thing sound like a simillar attack. Taking over from the inside. It sounds more like virus to me.

And very loud noise is the only way for him to take them down. He could've done that with a thunderclap. But it's not allowed. Hell, i doubt even thunderclap would've worked on Carnage. And it certanly take MUCH louder and high friquent sound attack to take symbiotes down than just pounding on the ground.
😂 Nice way of debating. You want me to give you states of bullets speed or something? Spare our time and simply look at the picture again. The guy only moved his torso a bit and it doesn't matter. The fact is that tendril chased and cought a bullet after it was fired. Sorry, but Hulk is not that quick. [/B]


This is easily going nowhere. I’m not going to continue arguing the same asinine subjects with you over and over again.

Instead, I’ll just list off the reasons that the other fight wasn’t PIS once again so you can actually counter them specifically this time…
- Namor only knocked out Hulk underwater. Every time he tried on land, he failed.
- Namor was dehydrated. In case you haven’t grasped what that means, it means his strength was nowhere near his strength levels underwater.
- Iron Man only knocked Hulk out once with a cheap lucky shot that used all his power source.
- Every other time IM, he lost miserably, which would mean his one victory goes against consistency. I would imagine that would nominate that one event for PIS.
- Neither Hercules nor Wonder Man nor Namor (on land) nor Iron Man (with that one exception) have ever come close to knocking out the standard Savage Hulk they typically fight.
- This Hulk was far stronger than the one they typically fought against.

Now, just once, come up with a logical argument, to say how it was PIS, despite all those reasons. If you just repeat the same things and nothing to actually counter the things listed above, then I guess you really don’t have any better, reasoning to your logic.
In other words, if you can’t bring any thing besides Namor and Iron Man knocked him out (which I countered), then stop making BS claims.

Also, I’ll tell ya that in the recent IH v3 #99, Hulk resists spores that take over their victims within seconds. Apparently, they couldn’t do the same against Hulk (and they entered in through his head). Same kind of attack. Now I’ve proven this method ineffective.

Ground slam replaces thunderclap and wins it here.