Rots Obi and Mace vs. Rots Anakin and Siddious

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And in that same breath he said he could lift a man clear over his head and toss him as Anakin, he said he could do all the things he could do as Vader as Anakin, and there will be no owning from anyone since Im right, calling me a fanboy doesn't save you from the fact your an idiot and a very shitty debater who depends on hearsay and has never actually seen the material in question.

O? but vader has been shown to kill his opponents with his bare hands, killing a wild animal after his tie fighter crashes on some planet, snapping the neck of a jedi master during the purge, and snapping the neck of a rebel officer

Again the things from wikipedia or wookie are canon, who ever says they are not? Just because some one can freely edit them? wrong, the person in charge would do something there rather than let the page get vandalised

Jesus Christ...the movie never stated that Yoda>>>Anakin, however, GEORGE LUCAS, ya know the guy who created Star Wars, said that at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful Jedi, also this is backed up in the Novel as AcStyles has said MULTIPLE times. You are the one getting pwned here. You just keep rehashing the same garbage about vapaad and unpredictable moves, CW Mace killing droids with his hands (which has NOTHING to do with lightsaber combat or ROTS at ALL), and that you cant provide actual quotes. I cant provide the quotes from SWI#62, so I'm not mentioning it anymore. try again.

Originally posted by kamikz
The Vapaad? You mean the animal? 😛

Mace style might be pretty fast, but his reactions aren't instant. And lifting his hand for a force push is faster than for Windu to run forward to make a lightsaber duel....

There's an animal named Vapaad? shock

Once he raises his hand, he needs to concentrate on manipulating the Force, although that shouldn't be to hard, seeing as he's the Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace would probably be able to repel the attack with a Force Push of his own.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Jesus Christ...the movie never stated that Yoda>>>Anakin, however, GEORGE LUCAS, ya know the guy who created Star Wars, said that at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful Jedi, also this is backed up in the Novel as AcStyles has said MULTIPLE times. You are the one getting pwned here. You just keep rehashing the same garbage about vapaad and unpredictable moves, CW Mace killing droids with his hands (which has NOTHING to do with lightsaber combat or ROTS at ALL), and that you cant provide actual quotes. I cant provide the quotes from SWI#62, so I'm not mentioning it anymore. try again.

And prove to me djem so > vaapad.

OK well, a sith lord and a jedi knight are not the same thing now are they? So saying that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi would no include Palps. And I'm not saying that Djem >Vapaad...forms in and of themselves do not pwn one another...its the practitioner of said forms. But you cant prove that Vapaad>Dejm so either...its all opinion that you're stating. YOU don't THINK that Anakin could predict his moves, YOU don't THINK that Anakin can overcome Mace. Everything your spouting is nothing but speculation. We all know what Vapaad is, and we all know who mace is...neither one of those factors, alone or coupled together, can GUARANTEE Mace victory over anyone, especially Anakin.

There's nothing that indicates that, as of RotS, Anakin is "more powerful" than Yoda, Sidious, or Mace. He could give them a hell of a fight - especially in sheer swordsmanship.

But what separates him from Yoda and Sidious is Force mastery. His raw connection to the Force greatly exceeds theirs, but they know far more (and I do mean FAR more) techniques and abilities than he does, and they have mastered them.

In an all out fight, they'd kill him. Mace, too, but it'd be closer.

What indicates it is Lucas' word. He said that Anakin was the most powerful, he just lacked experience. Doesn't matter what he lacks or what other people have mastered, he, according to his creator, is the most powerful jedi. Thats all i was saying...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What indicates it is Lucas' word. He said that Anakin was the most powerful, he just lacked experience. Doesn't matter what he lacks or what other people have mastered, he, according to his creator, is the most powerful jedi. Thats all i was saying...

The novelization said that Anakin was the most powerful. And it was Anakin who said it.

Lucas said that, in RotS, only Mace and Yoda could compete with Palpatine - and Anakin could have - if he wasn't beaten on Mustafar, and allowed to reach his potential.

Sorry, man. Anakin's number four as of RotS.

Originally posted by Escape81
The novelization said that Anakin was the most powerful. And it was Anakin who said it.

Lucas said that, in RotS, only Mace and Yoda could compete with Palpatine - and Anakin could have - if he wasn't beaten on Mustafar, and allowed to reach his potential.

Sorry, man. Anakin's number four as of RotS.

No it wasn't, it was a narrator who says Anakin is the best for the billionth time

"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The strongest, the fastest."

And no I disagree Anakins number 3 in overall skill behind Yoda and Palpy, in the saber department he's number 1, Anakin is overall better then Mace Windu, Anakin is stronger in the force, Mace even admits this when he's trying to stop a column from falling with the force he says if he had the raw force power of Yoda or Skywalker he'd be able to lift it.

First, chill with the attitude. There's no need for it.

No it wasn't, it was a narrator who says Anakin is the best for the billionth time

"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The strongest, the fastest."

The strongest Jedi of his generation. Mace doesn't apply. Sidious doesn't apply, either, and Yoda sure as hell doesn't.

And, as for the second part, key in on the "perhaps".

And no I disagree Anakins number 3 in overall skill behind Yoda and Palpy, in the saber department he's number 1,

Dude, don't dictate to me what is what. It is your personal opinion that Anakin is number one in lightsaber ability. His progression is better than everybody's, but there's nothing to indicate that he is actually superior to Mace, Yoda, or Sidious. He's on par, yes. But better? That's baseless.

Anakin is overall better then Mace Windu, Anakin is stronger in the force, Mace even admits this when he's trying to stop a column from falling with the force he says if he had the raw force power of Yoda or Skywalker he'd be able to lift it.

Raw force power.

Sorry, but in mastery and techniques - he, Sidious, Yoda, and likely Count Dooku have him beat.

First, chill with the attitude. There's no need for it.

The strongest Jedi of his generation. Mace doesn't apply. Sidious doesn't apply, either, and Yoda sure as hell doesn't.

Since when is Palpatine a Jedi? I was under the impression that "his generation" meant all PT Jedi. I doubt the author meant every 10 year gap that defines OUR generations, besides Lucas has already said Anakin was the strongest Jedi in ROTS. And even without these quotes its more then obvious Anakin is above at least Mace.

Dude, don't dictate to me what is what. It is your personal opinion that Anakin is number one in lightsaber ability. His progression is better than everybody's, but there's nothing to indicate that he is actually superior to Mace, Yoda, or Sidious. He's on par, yes. But better? That's baseless.

How is disagreeing dictating? I put I disagree for a reason had I wanted to dictate I wold have simply said you were wrong and typed a statement. How is it baseless? We've seen what Anakin using the dark side did to such a powerful being like Dooku, he made a joke of all his sword mastery and force knowledge, he beat him in 8 SECONDS. Not even Yoda on TWO occasions could do that and Mace WIndu could NEVER even come close to beating Dooku, its FAR from Baseless.

Raw force power.

Sorry, but in mastery and techniques - he, Sidious, Yoda, and likely Count Dooku have him beat.

Did I say he was better then those 3? No I was talking about Mace, stop taking things out of context.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Did I give one? Im just tired of posting the same quote over and over for people who are trying to nit pick it. And someone disagreeing with you =/= attitude.

Since when is Palpatine a Jedi? I was under the impression that "his generation" meant all PT Jedi. I doubt the author meant every 10 year gap that defines OUR generations, besides Lucas has already said Anakin was the strongest Jedi in ROTS. And even without these quotes its more then obvious Anakin is above at least Mace.

How is disagreeing dictating? I put I disagree for a reason had I wanted to dictate I wold have simply said you were wrong and typed a statement. How is it baseless? We've seen what Anakin using the dark side did to such a powerful being like Dooku, he made a joke of all his sword mastery and force knowledge, he beat him in 8 SECONDS. Not even Yoda on TWO occasions could do that and Mace WIndu could NEVER even come close to beating Dooku, its FAR from Baseless.

Did I say he was better then those 3? No I was talking about Mace, stop taking things out of context.

Just because dooku won mace does it mean dooku > sidious? No, stop using that a>b>c theory

can the quote prove anything? hell no, the guy who wrote the ROTS novel also quoted something in RODV which is a major debate. saying that vader would = sidious when its not true

Stop using the A>B>C argument??!?!? Thats all you've been doing! Now that someone even hints at doing it against you, you get all pouty like you have to change your tampon or something.

I already did a while ago, stop acusing me that im using a>b>c, Im wanting people to prove that quote, that anakin is really better than sidious, yoda and mace

Ooooo! Dear me, I think I smell a sock called xxXAcStylesXxx. A sock of Sorgo perhaps? Or did he give up trying to get back into KMC?

Since when is Palpatine a Jedi? I was under the impression that "his generation" meant all PT Jedi. I doubt the author meant every 10 year gap that defines OUR generations, besides Lucas has already said Anakin was the strongest Jedi in ROTS. And even without these quotes its more then obvious Anakin is above at least Mace.

Sorry, but there's nothing that I am aware of that indicates that "his generation" indicates the PT as a whole. No, it likely means that he is the strongest of the Jedi his age - which is definately true. His potential dwarfs that of Yoda and Palpatine - but he has not reached it. He is weaker in the Force than Palpatine and Yoda, and he is weaker than Mace and Dooku as well.

Anakin's raw command of the Force gives him moments of incredible power, but because his knowledge of the Force is rather pathetic in comparison to the above four, and he has yet to master techniques, he is still weaker, and would lose in a fight against them in a sheer Force match - and with the case of Yoda and Sidious (and probably Mace), he would lose in an all out fight.

How is disagreeing dictating? I put I disagree for a reason had I wanted to dictate I wold have simply said you were wrong and typed a statement. How is it baseless? We've seen what Anakin using the dark side did to such a powerful being like Dooku, he made a joke of all his sword mastery and force knowledge, he beat him in 8 SECONDS. Not even Yoda on TWO occasions could do that and Mace WIndu could NEVER even come close to beating Dooku, its FAR from Baseless.

a) Anakin (when angered) > Dooku in lightsaber skills. However, do you honestly think that Anakin is better than Count Dooku in the Force? Hardly. Anakin lacks refinement, technique, and mastery with the Force, whereas Count Dooku possesses all of it.

b) Anakin was tapped into the Dark Side, and gave into his rage. Mace and Yoda's resistance to the Dark Side is considerably greater than Anakin's - and in the case of Yoda vs. Dooku - there is nothing to indicate that Yoda was going all out on him like he did with Sidious.

c) Check your sources again. Yoda handed Dooku's ass to him on Vjun - a planet steeped in the Dark Side. Yoda was at a natural disadvantage, where Dooku's power was at it's peak, and Yoda's was at it's lowest. And he forced Dooku to retreat, while being distracted by a diversion that Count Dooku set up (tossing an innocent woman out of a window - forcing Yoda to save her).

d) Recheck their confrontation on Boz Pity. They stalemated, and Dooku chose to flee and leave Mace to confront the Magnaguards.

Did I say he was better then those 3? No I was talking about Mace, stop taking things out of context.

Mace = Dooku (or may be slightly better). And, read my sentence again. I included Mace in that.

OK look, I'm not saying that Anakin would pwn all these people cause thats not the case. What i AM saying is that according to GL, at the time of ROTS, Anakin was the most powerful JEDI (not to include the Sith), but he lacked experience and thats why OB1 was able to beat him. Of course his mastery of the force isnt equal to a 800 year old bald treasure troll, and he hasnt yet caught up to Mace, but Anakin at 23/24 was better than Mace at 23/24. I would hardly call Anakin's force control pathetic, he stalemated Ob1 in force powers plus had the ability to save his sorry ass 10 times, (that business on Cadia Modia(spelling?) DOES count, lol). Anyway, yea i wouldn't say pathetic, just not up to the Jedi Master's levels.

When he fought Dooku he was using rage and anger, but he was clear minded and therefore i wouldn't say he was "enraged". However on Mustafar, he was in fact ENRAGED, and it blinded him and allowed him to lose, even though it was by what i would consider a small marginal error. That seems to be the whole thing with Anakin, using his rage and anger accordingly and within reason. wouldn't that sort of be on the lines of Vapaad? Not saying that he uses Vapaad at all, just saying he enjoys the fights he's in, he uses his emotions and anger to his advantage, much like Mace. But anyway. If Anakin is angry but not mustafar type enraged, i think he could beat Mace, but if was as mad as he was with Ob1, then Mace actually kicks his ass rather than just get lucky like OB1 did.

Ooooo! Dear me, I think I smell a sock called xxXAcStylesXxx. A sock of Sorgo perhaps? Or did he give up trying to get back into KMC?

What are you talking about?

a) Anakin (when angered) > Dooku in lightsaber skills. However, do you honestly think that Anakin is better than Count Dooku in the Force? Hardly. Anakin lacks refinement, technique, and mastery with the Force, whereas Count Dooku possesses all of it.

Exactly, thats the point if Anakin is angered, he becomes a beast, capable of reducing all that refinement, technique, and mastery with the force to a mere joke. Why can't he do this to someone like Mace Windu, who was beaten by Dooku. I will however concede that Yoda would lay teh smakethdown on him.

b) Anakin was tapped into the Dark Side, and gave into his rage. Mace and Yoda's resistance to the Dark Side is considerably greater than Anakin's - and in the case of Yoda vs. Dooku - there is nothing to indicate that Yoda was going all out on him like he did with Sidious.

Except for he displays all the same traits he does as he did against Sids and he does against Dooku, he does his yell, his signature Ataru flips and blinding speed. It would actually be incredibly idiotic of Yoda NOT to go all out against Dooku in AOTC, Yoda was protecting Jedi, had just learned Dooku was a Sith Lord, had seen the carnage he unleashed and all the Jedi deaths on Geonosis, had Yoda taken that battle as a "I don't wanna hurt Dooku" He's an idiot, also you can't prove he was in that mindset. If anything their duel on Vjun was Yoda trying to turn Dooku and going lightly.

c) Check your sources again. Yoda handed Dooku's ass to him on Vjun - a planet steeped in the Dark Side. Yoda was at a natural disadvantage, where Dooku's power was at it's peak, and Yoda's was at it's lowest. And he forced Dooku to retreat, while being distracted by a diversion that Count Dooku set up (tossing an innocent woman out of a window - forcing Yoda to save her).

No ****, he was also trying to turn Dooku, if you wanna add that too, and the Darkness did not bother Yoda, as he weaved in out of it so greatly, hide his force signature from Dooku, even snuck up on Doouk in a world were he "holds the advantage" Yoda has surpassed the DS on entire worlds (DAGABOTH) a little DS does not bother the likes of Yoda.

d) Recheck their confrontation on Boz Pity. They stalemated, and Dooku chose to flee and leave Mace to confront the Magnaguards.

Prove up, I actually can't since I can't find my comic, however I do remember that Mace was pushed back to a pit and Dooku sic'ed his MagnaGuards on him. Since you know Dooku was RETREATING from the city, and Wookie backs me up so unless you post a pic point moot.

Mace = Dooku (or may be slightly better). And, read my sentence again. I included Mace in that. [/B][/QUOTE]

Until you prove up on that, Dooku > Mace, I have an actual source albeit its Wiki but a source none the less, you have nothing.

You on the other hand have not supplied an actual argument for Mace > Anakin. Other then "His force mastery was better." which amounts to jack shit as Anakin v Dooku proved. And even if Mace = Dooku, that still puts Anakin above him, unless you wanna prove that Mace WIndu who can't beat Dooku period, can all of a sudden take on someone who ass raped him in 8 seconds? The ABC's actually work in this case, had Anakins defeat of Dooku not been so absolute, maybe you'd have a point. But when we have sources telling us that Anakin turned one of the most powerful beings ever into an utter joke, making all things your hyping him for (force mastery, technique, sword mastery) into irrelevant factors that couldn't even slow Anakin down, and you want me to believe that someone who couldn't even beat Dooku can stop that? Please.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
OK look, I'm not saying that Anakin would pwn all these people cause thats not the case. What i AM saying is that according to GL, at the time of ROTS, Anakin was the most powerful JEDI (not to include the Sith), but he lacked experience and thats why OB1 was able to beat him. Of course his mastery of the force isnt equal to a 800 year old bald treasure troll, and he hasnt yet caught up to Mace, but Anakin at 23/24 was better than Mace at 23/24. I would hardly call Anakin's force control pathetic, he stalemated Ob1 in force powers plus had the ability to save his sorry ass 10 times, (that business on Cadia Modia(spelling?) DOES count, lol). Anyway, yea i wouldn't say pathetic, just not up to the Jedi Master's levels.

When he fought Dooku he was using rage and anger, but he was clear minded and therefore i wouldn't say he was "enraged". However on Mustafar, he was in fact ENRAGED, and it blinded him and allowed him to lose, even though it was by what i would consider a small marginal error. That seems to be the whole thing with Anakin, using his rage and anger accordingly and within reason. wouldn't that sort of be on the lines of Vapaad? Not saying that he uses Vapaad at all, just saying he enjoys the fights he's in, he uses his emotions and anger to his advantage, much like Mace. But anyway. If Anakin is angry but not mustafar type enraged, i think he could beat Mace, but if was as mad as he was with Ob1, then Mace actually kicks his ass rather than just get lucky like OB1 did.

Exactly, thats what I've been saying Anakin controlling his rage and using it to fuel his power his damn near unstoppable, Anakin blinded by his feelings and lashing out is in fact easier to beat and subsequently much weaker.