Aegis and Tenebrous vs The Spectre.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's the thing. By on panel occurrances, Spectre's killed more regular non powered humans than he's gone up against cosmic heavyweights, and he's shown to have been outsmarted and out-manuevered by humans, so his low showings outnumber his high showings, though his high showings outweigh his lows. If you were to take into account all of his appearances as a body of work rather than just his high end feats, he's not that impressive. I'm not saying Tenebrous and Aegis would beat Spectre. I don't think 10 "normally" portrayed Galactus' would beat Spectre. I'm just saying away from climaxes in story arcs where there's a "universal" threat, Spectre basically runs around picking on regular humans turning them into candles and melting them or some other abstract snuff, and doesn't really do anything of merit other than taking on a major threat to buy time for the JLA to score a W (like having Parallax throw punches...).

I'm not really impressed.

Originally posted by Juntai
Two near Galactus level beings against the wrath of the one above all.

What do the people think?

OFCOURCE THE 2 GALACTUS LEVEL BEINGS WIN THIS I BILLION/10!

I know his purpose. He's basically a glorified Ghost Rider. I'm just saying his body of work is not impressive taking all things into consideration, and he's shown on numerous occasions to be fallable and have regular humans outsmart him, per canon accounts.

Now he's up against Thanos, a master manipulator, and a universe conquering armada.

I'm just thinking if Alex Luthor can outsmart him, Thanos could. And I'm also thinking that Annihilus could just destroy DC Earth from orbit and then it's the Annihilation Wave versus the remaining survivors with no back up.

That's not very promising.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's the thing. By on panel occurrances, Spectre's killed more regular non powered humans than he's gone up against cosmic heavyweights, and he's shown to have been outsmarted and out-manuevered by humans, so his low showings outnumber his high showings, though his high showings outweigh his lows. If you were to take into account all of his appearances as a body of work rather than just his high end feats, he's not that impressive. I'm not saying Tenebrous and Aegis would beat Spectre. I don't think 10 "normally" portrayed Galactus' would beat Spectre. I'm just saying away from climaxes in story arcs where there's a "universal" threat, Spectre basically runs around picking on regular humans turning them into candles and melting them or some other abstract snuff, and doesn't really do anything of merit other than taking on a major threat to buy time for the JLA to score a W (like having Parallax throw punches...).

I'm not really impressed.

Cool sig Illadelph 😮‍💨

Originally posted by illadelph12
I know his purpose. He's basically a glorified Ghost Rider. I'm just saying his body of work is not impressive taking all things into consideration, and he's shown on numerous occasions to be fallable and have regular humans outsmart him, per canon accounts.

Now he's up against [b]Thanos, a master manipulator, and a universe conquering armada.

I'm just thinking if Alex Luthor can outsmart him, Thanos could. And I'm also thinking that Annihilus could just destroy DC Earth from orbit and then it's the Annihilation Wave versus the remaining survivors with no back up.

That's not very promising. [/B]

Btw, Alexander Luthor is by no means a regular human.

And this thread isn't the Annihilation Wave, this thread is Aegis and Tenebrous vs Spectre, heads up. Who's more powerful?

Originally posted by Juntai
Alexander Luthor was only able to do that because of Eclipso. He planted the Eclipso diamond to Jean Loring. It's the sister spirit to Spectre, as Eclipso was the original Wrath of God. And it was only able to confuse the rage itself, it wouldn't have happened with a human host. Technically, what happened in Crisis, shouldn't have been able to happen at all. He's supposed to leave the mortal plane when he no longer has a host.

That's what makes Spectre's folly that much worse in that story arc Juntai.

Think about this:

We have a semi-omnipotent being, that is depicted as an aspect of the DC Multiverse's God, that couldn't tell it was falling victim to the machinations of a human villain, but he can track down sinners a galaxy away, supposedly, initiate Big Bangs, and tackle cosmic entities. I know Eclipso is the supposed "Spirit of Revenge" that preceded the Spectre, but on panel and per canon, all Eclipso did was talk the Spectre into destroying universal magic using a bit of circular logic created by Luthor, Eclipso (Loring) was just the messenger. There was no coersion, magic influence, or psionic manipulation applied to the Spectre, it was simply outsmarted by a human being.

On top of that, why wasn't Spectre tipped off once Luthor began his plot. I think plotting a multi-versal event that results in the murder of hundreds of beings is a sin, Spectre should have been prevy of the situation from the jump (being as Spectre is an agent of the Presence and has a level of omnipresence).

So not only did he not see it coming (a mystical aspect of God that seeks vengence on sinners couldn't tell a sin was in process), but on top of that, he was made an unwitting pawn to carry out the sin.

By a human.

Yet he's infallable to a point that Thanos can't pull a fast one on him, but Luthor could?

I know this is Aegis and Tenebrous vs. The Spectre thread. As I said in my first post this is an aside to the argument, and I'm simply continuing the train of thought. Basically, I'm making a point in regards to this topic, and it's relation to the Annihilation Wave thread that spawned this thread (as you pointed out in your earlier post).

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's what makes Spectre's folly that much worse in that story arc Juntai.

Think about this:

We have a semi-omnipotent being, that is depicted as an aspect of the DC Multiverse's God, that couldn't tell it was falling victim to the machinations of a human villain, but he can track down sinners a galaxy away, supposedly, initiate Big Bangs, and tackle cosmic entities. I know Eclipso is the supposed "Spirit of Revenge" that preceded the Spectre, but on panel and per canon, all Eclipso did was [b]talk the Spectre into destroying universal magic using a bit of circular logic created by Luthor, Eclipso (Loring) was just the messenger. There was no coersion, magic influence, or psionic manipulation applied to the Spectre, it was simply outsmarted by a human being.

On top of that, why wasn't Spectre tipped off once Luthor began his plot. I think plotting a multi-versal event that results in the murder of hundreds of beings is a sin, Spectre should have been prevy of the situation from the jump (being as Spectre is an agent of the Presence and has a level of omnipresence).

So not only did he not see it coming (a mystical aspect of God that seeks vengence on sinners couldn't tell a sin was in process), but on top of that, he was made an unwitting pawn to carry out the sin.

By a human.

Yet he's infallable to a point that Thanos can't pull a fast one on him, but Luthor could? [/B]

And none of it would have happened at all, if he had a human soul to make judgements for him.
The Wrath is mad, it was basically driven insane when Jesus died.
That's why it was decreed that to exist on the mortal realm, it needs a human soul to judge for it.
Your judgements on Spectre should take this into account.
You're arguing from a single account, which is far out of character for Spectre.

So a being of blind rage is led by a human's "better judgement and decision making"?

That's supposed to make it infallable?

I'm not just taking the one incident into account, I mean, look back even before the Identity Crisis Arc. If you look at the Spectre's entire history you see him just killing powerless sinners way after the fact. It's nothing Ghost Rider doesn't do/hasn't done.

Now, tackling a particular story arc's villain head up on a couple of occasions (A-Monitor, Parallax), and then going apesh*t on magic users because he got tricked by Luthor are good feats, but his complete body of work isn't staggering. He didn't even kill Black Adam (though he killed Shazam), he turned PS into a rat, Black Alice if more adept, could have been a bigger threat. He's not going to snap his fingers and down a high end being. Shazam, AM, and Parallax put up quite a fight against him, and the character has been shown on panel to be fallable, it's part of the character's premise. Hell, it's led by human judgement. That gives it away right there. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by illadelph12
So a blind being of rage is led by a "human's" better judgement and decision making?

That's supposed to make it infallable?

No, only The Presence is infallable.

But the human host and the Logoz working as one are nigh unstoppable. And have shown the ability to accomplish pretty much anything. They NEED eachother. That's the essence of the character. If you happened to read the 3 part mini after Crisis, Crispus Allen even said "I get the idea that it needs me, more than I need it."
Spectre's power however speaks for itself.
But I can see now that you're casting judgement and know very little to nothing of the actual character involved.

If you say so Juntai.

I'm just saying that the character has been duped before, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility. It's not that I don't know the character, I simply have an objective viewpoint.

Originally posted by illadelph12
If you say so Juntai.

I'm just saying that the character has been duped before, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility. It's not that I don't know the character, I simply have an objective viewpoint.

"Who can possibly beat the Spectre?"

Originally posted by Juntai
Depends on how much prep, plot devices and PIS is involved, and if he's going crazy or not.
Typically to stop him or foil his plans it takes all of those at once, and even then it's not assured and usually doesn't work in the end, just stalls him.

Since Juntai thought it wise to start a new thread. Why not. Let's do it. I'll repost and edit some things from the older source thread and clean it up a bit.

Illadelph12 has excellent points. For a piece of God, he sure is stupid and easily manipulated. Not only that, but he moved against God's will and was punished. The comparison has been made and it works, Spectre is a glorified Ghost Rider. Living Tribunal never gets jobbed like this. For Juntai's credit, he came up with one argument: Bad writing. Thanks for nothing. This 'writing' has been going on for years, and i respect all the DC authors and editors' depiction of Spectre, more than I do your opinion and willingness to disregard continuity.

But I'm not going to simply piggyback Illadelph12's arguments. I'll add to them. Spectre has not just been shown to be easily manipulated and downright stupid at times. He has also been definitively shown to have limits. He couldn't do crap to Parallax. Truth. Read 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' I don't give a crap about Hallax from 'Zero Hour' (otherwise known as the sequel DC wishes they could forget). I'm talking about the cosmic personification of fear...

Spectre and the Wrath of God could not do anything, in fact his powers were being manipulated by Parallax, subverted. Hence, the analogy that Spectre seems essentially ineffective against cosmic beings that appear to be part of the cosmic consonance. Because Spectre is in fact, ineffective against things. Parallax being one of them, antimatter being another. Limits.

Another argument as to why Spectre has NOTHING on Galactus. As it has been pointed out, Spectre's only role is to judge beings who do wrong and carry out wrathful judgement upon them. So in the cosmic scheme of life and God's plan, how can Galactus ever be judged? He is beyond morals and judgement, there is no wrong to be judged, no wrath to be assessed. Galactus is far more than a giant with a purple suit who eats worlds. He is the the End and Beginning of all that is.

And one who is outside the emo concept of right and wrong is beyond Spectre's power. This is how I would imagine if FP Spectre ever ran after FP Galactus, had he been manipulated again. Spectre would destroy all that is, maybe even kill Eternity to kill Galactus. Since no life remained, Death would probably disappear also as her role is complete. It'd be nothing but pure blackness and Galactus and Spectre floating in space. Galactus would turn to him and say, "I remain, because I am the new beginning. You're wrath does not impede the cycle of all that is. Now go to a corner and put your dunce cap on."

Another point, since you guys are so focused on 'wrath of god' terms. Literal 'Wrath of God' sure does sound impressive. But if you want to consider Spectre in his role as God's Wrath, please tell me the appropriate analogy of how Galactus fits into God's plan or what role he plays. You constantly harp about Galactus not being on par with the Wrath of God? Are you kidding me? What are you guys, so in love with wrath and being emo that you can't figure out what being the alpha and omega of existence, is in terms of God? He is the personification of the 'Cycle of God.' He is the 'Balance Bringer.' Compared to the engine of wrath who judges wrong or right in mortals, Galactus is higher up on the food chain here. Don't let the costume fool you because you ought to be more intelligent than that.

Aegis and Tenebrous, feared even by Galactus and as far as we've been told, his peers and equals. No contest when you amp them all to full power. What roles, Aegis and Tenebrous serve in the cosmic consonance will be interesting to discover. If Aegis and Tenebrous do not serve an important function of the universe, they may very well be DOA when Spectre comes around. But until then, they are every bit Galactus' equal and therefore, over Spectre.

And just to cut this thread short, these are the arguments to be made and rebutted. I don't want to see scans of Galactus being staggered by Thor and some emo Spectre freak screaming how Spectre could never be hurt by that. Otherwise, I'll school you. And if there is a guy who's reading this and is 10 seconds away from posting such drivel and still doesn't understand why, I'll spell it out for you: 1) You want to use FP Spectre's high end feats as proof, consider Galactus/Aegis and Tenebrous at full power; 2) You want to consider Spectre's role in God's plan, consider Galactus' role in God's plan and since we've been shown nothign else, consider Aegis and Tenebrous' role to be on par.

Lastly, I have no respect for arguments made that continue to assert that the past 4 years of writing are to be ignored, simply for the sake of holding onto some discarded fan favorite version of a character. If Annihilation 6 came out tomorrow and the next 4 years of Marvel writing portrayed Galactus to be a deluded Celestial, would you let me disregard that? I think not. Spectre is what he is. Spectre has really had a lot to do in recent years. Deal with it. You don't like it, fine, criticize it all you want. But don't come to KMC and expect such blindness to pass as logic.

EDIT: And if you're interested in my theory as to why Spectre is being treated the way he is and how his current state could be easily be reconciled with what you know about him, I'll tell you. But I'd like to focus on this debate for now. I like taking unpopular opinions that I believe are right. It's a challenge to smash preconceptions.

Isn't a full power Spectre, just like a full power Galactus?
(not in power of course)

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

EDIT: And if you're interested in my theory as to why Spectre is being treated the way he is and how his current state could be easily be reconciled with what you know about him, I'll tell you. But I'd like to focus on this debate for now. I like taking unpopular opinions that I believe are right. It's a challenge to smash preconceptions.

I honestly am interested. Have you posted your theory somewhere to be read?

Spectre Living Tribunal Michael Morningstar Phoenix Thanos HOTU Thanos IG all of those characters from DC and Marvel are not omnipotent There creators are omnipotent the others are lackeys...

The word omnipotent is severely molested in the comics, that is nothing new...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since Juntai thought it wise to start a new thread. Why not. Let's do it. I'll repost and edit some things from the older source thread and clean it up a bit.

Illadelph12 has excellent points. For a piece of God, he sure is stupid and easily manipulated. Not only that, but he moved against God's will and was punished. The comparison has been made and it works, Spectre is a glorified Ghost Rider. Living Tribunal never gets jobbed like this. For Juntai's credit, he came up with one argument: Bad writing. Thanks for nothing. This 'writing' has been going on for years, and i respect all the DC authors and editors' depiction of Spectre, more than I do your opinion and willingness to disregard continuity.

But I'm not going to simply piggyback Illadelph12's arguments. I'll add to them. Spectre has not just been shown to be easily manipulated and downright stupid at times. He has also been definitively shown to have limits. He couldn't do crap to Parallax. Truth. Read 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' I don't give a crap about Hallax from 'Zero Hour' (otherwise known as the sequel DC wishes they could forget). I'm talking about the cosmic personification of fear...

Spectre and the Wrath of God could not do anything, in fact his powers were being manipulated by Parallax, subverted. Hence, the analogy that Spectre seems essentially ineffective against cosmic beings that appear to be part of the cosmic consonance. Because Spectre is in fact, ineffective against things. Parallax being one of them, antimatter being another. Limits.

Another argument as to why Spectre has NOTHING on Galactus. As it has been pointed out, Spectre's only role is to judge beings who do wrong and carry out wrathful judgement upon them. So in the cosmic scheme of life and God's plan, how can Galactus ever be judged? He is beyond morals and judgement, there is no wrong to be judged, no wrath to be assessed. Galactus is far more than a giant with a purple suit who eats worlds. He is the the End and Beginning of all that is.

And one who is outside the emo concept of right and wrong is beyond Spectre's power. This is how I would imagine if FP Spectre ever ran after FP Galactus, had he been manipulated again. Spectre would destroy all that is, maybe even kill Eternity to kill Galactus. Since no life remained, Death would probably disappear also as her role is complete. It'd be nothing but pure blackness and Galactus and Spectre floating in space. Galactus would turn to him and say, "I remain, because I am the new beginning. You're wrath does not impede the cycle of all that is. Now go to a corner and put your dunce cap on."

Another point, since you guys are so focused on 'wrath of god' terms. Literal 'Wrath of God' sure does sound impressive. But if you want to consider Spectre in his role as God's Wrath, please tell me the appropriate analogy of how Galactus fits into God's plan or what role he plays. You constantly harp about Galactus not being on par with the Wrath of God? Are you kidding me? What are you guys, so in love with wrath and being emo that you can't figure out what being the alpha and omega of existence, is in terms of God? He is the personification of the 'Cycle of God.' He is the 'Balance Bringer.' Compared to the engine of wrath who judges wrong or right in mortals, Galactus is higher up on the food chain here. Don't let the costume fool you because you ought to be more intelligent than that.

Aegis and Tenebrous, feared even by Galactus and as far as we've been told, his peers and equals. No contest when you amp them all to full power. What roles, Aegis and Tenebrous serve in the cosmic consonance will be interesting to discover. If Aegis and Tenebrous do not serve an important function of the universe, they may very well be DOA when Spectre comes around. But until then, they are every bit Galactus' equal and therefore, over Spectre.

And just to cut this thread short, these are the arguments to be made and rebutted. I don't want to see scans of Galactus being staggered by Thor and some emo Spectre freak screaming how Spectre could never be hurt by that. Otherwise, I'll school you. And if there is a guy who's reading this and is 10 seconds away from posting such drivel and still doesn't understand why, I'll spell it out for you: 1) You want to use FP Spectre's high end feats as proof, consider Galactus/Aegis and Tenebrous at full power; 2) You want to consider Spectre's role in God's plan, consider Galactus' role in God's plan and since we've been shown nothign else, consider Aegis and Tenebrous' role to be on par.

Lastly, I have no respect for arguments made that continue to assert that the past 4 years of writing are to be ignored, simply for the sake of holding onto some discarded fan favorite version of a character. If Annihilation 6 came out tomorrow and the next 4 years of Marvel writing portrayed Galactus to be a deluded Celestial, would you let me disregard that? I think not. Spectre is what he is. Spectre has really had a lot to do in recent years. Deal with it. You don't like it, fine, criticize it all you want. But don't come to KMC and expect such blindness to pass as logic.

EDIT: And if you're interested in my theory as to why Spectre is being treated the way he is and how his current state could be easily be reconciled with what you know about him, I'll tell you. But I'd like to focus on this debate for now. I like taking unpopular opinions that I believe are right. It's a challenge to smash preconceptions.

. . it begs the question, have you ever actually read a The Spectre comic, or just random appearances?

Galactus is not higher on the food chain, don't delude yourself. Spectre is the Wrath of God, and the guardian of the omniverse, a piece of God itself..

He created reality as we know it, and remade it multiple times over..Something neither Galactus, nor Tenebrous, nor Aegis have ever shown.

This is about power, that's what battles are about, not station.
Spectre has shown more power through his last 5 years than Aeigis Tenebrous and Galactus have ever shown us, combined. What would lead you to believe they actually had a shot?

Don't even worry about the theoretical 'he would have to have a reason to be judged' crap either, this is a hypothetical forum pitting one character against another based on the powers they've shown.

If you've got something to bring to the table in defense of tenebrous and aegis, that would make anyone think he defeat Spectre in terms of on panel feats, or shit, even hyperbole... try it. We'll compare it up.

You'll also notice, you're the only one actually arguing in favor of T&A. Illadelph isn't arguing against Spectre at all, just giving a viewpoint and asking question, and I obliged in answering best I could.

This line of reasoning does beg the question though:

Does Spectre's jurisdiction allow him to destroy concepts of creation that aren't sinners, are amoral, and are the basis of existence? Could Spectre wipe out the Endless without provocation, or would that go againt the Presence's plan, and therefore, would Spectre be rebuked and his actions nullified?