Aegis and Tenebrous vs The Spectre.

Originally posted by illadelph12
This line of reasoning does beg the question though:

Does Spectre's jurisdiction allow him to destroy concepts of creation that aren't sinners, are amoral, and are the basis of existence? Could Spectre wipe out the Endless without provocation, or would that go againt the Presence's plan, and therefore, would Spectre be rebuked and his actions nullified?

I'm personally not disputing that Juntai, as you know. On panel, as of now, Tenebrous & Aegis haven't done anything but overwhelm Surfer and Galactus and "eat" the Fallen One, so comparing feats of them to Spectre is kind of futile because the characters have only existed for a few months compared to Spectre's 6 decades of history. Feats are a bit subjective anyway. I've always wondered why this board is so against supposed PIS (Plot induced stupidity) when feats, by their nature, are simply PIG (Plot induced greatness). Low showings and high showings are all plot induced and make up the nature of the character, so you should have to take it all into consideration, not just the highs. I've always found that hypocritical. So long as the writer is putting a character in a good light no one complains, but portray the character to show any traits of weakness and it's bad writing and should be dismissed? Personally, even in a hypothetical fight, I feel it's necessary to consider the nature of the parties involved.

I'm simply presenting a question:

Granted, Spectre is the spirit of vengence/God's Wrath, but there are some beings or concepts that don't incur God's Wrath, and by extension, are absolved from it. So long as they are performing their God given function Spectre has no business with them. If you pit Spectre in a fight against one of these personified concepts that isn't acting outside of it's role, what can he really do to them? Anti-Monitor, Parallax, etc. I'll grant you. But how would Spectre fair against the Endless? Aren't the Endless DC's analogues of Marvel's Abstracts?

Originally posted by Juntai
So you still didn't comprehend Rebirth after half a dozen people broke it down for you back in the Ganthet thread? Or have you continued to ignore it all this time still?
Spectre wasn't unable to do anything.
It needed Hal to make the Judgement. I already pointed out earlier, the host and The Wrath need eachother.
Funny how you believe he's capable of taking of cosmics or cosmic personification when his IN series battles have been against Satan itself..["Santa with the letters rearanged". In Volume 4.😉], and the embodiment of dispair and the embodiment of doubt[Stigmonus also volume 4], the embodiment of womens sufferage [Corrigan battled her in volume 3.] And several more.

. . it begs the question, have you ever actually read a The Spectre comic, or just random appearances?

Galactus is not higher on the food chain, don't delude yourself. Spectre is the Wrath of God, and the guardian of the omniverse, a piece of God itself..

He created reality as we know it, and remade it multiple times over..Something neither Galactus, nor Tenebrous, nor Aegis have ever shown.

This is about power, that's what battles are about, not station.
Spectre has shown more power through his last 5 years than Aeigis Tenebrous and Galactus have ever shown us, combined. What would lead you to believe they actually had a shot?

Don't even worry about the theoretical 'he would have to have a reason to be judged' crap either, this is a hypothetical forum pitting one character against another based on the powers they've shown.

If you've got something to bring to the table in defense of tenebrous and aegis, that would make anyone think he defeat Spectre in terms of on panel feats, or shit, even hyperbole... try it. We'll compare it up.

You'll also notice, you're the only one actually arguing in favor of T&A. Illadelph isn't arguing against Spectre at all, just giving a viewpoint and asking question, and I obliged in answering best I could.

You never toppled my points and I actually went further and reconciled everything you said with my interpretation of Spectre. You did not. In fact, you used the excuse of PIS more often than my tastes normally allow. Then you and your friend started going off on tangents to avoid having to own up to your failures. I had never seen so many retreats and topic changes in any thread as that one. And ALL of the topic and subject changes were initiated by you and your friend. You've read more Spectre historically, I'll admit that. But you continue to disregard a lot of what's going on currently and it smells of bias. You disregarded his ineffectuality against Parallax itself, you disregard his susceptibility to mere manipulation, you disregard vulnerabilities like antimatter. And as always, when people bring up good points you argue PIS... even further than that, you try to define the parameters of how we're allowed to argue. Let me illustrate that here:

1) Just because we all agree Spectre is a piece of God is not dispositive of Galactus' own importance. Marvel has never gone to such definite lengths to define who is what to God. But be very clear, because you continue to avoid this point: Galactus' role in the universe is to balance and eventually be the end and beginning. Spectre's role is to cast wrath upon those who do evil. Reduced even further, you're comparing The Necessary Being For Balance and the Cycle of the Universe vs. The Bringer of God's Wrath. There is no logic in believing the latter is more important than the former.

-And then your old familiar move happens again, topic change, except it's even more overt than just ignoring what I said and bringing up something new-

2) Your next point is to put those arguments in a box and ignore them. All of a sudden, we have to follow your directions and make this debate about a feat comparison thread in terms of pure power. This isn't feat vs feat. KMC vs. battles have never been reduced to such simple-minded arguments. The fact is, if someone is immune from another's powers, that's an advantage. Just because Havok has greater destructive power in low and high showings than Cyclops, means nothing about Havok definitively overpowering through feats and thus beating Cyclops, when Cyclops is immune to his power. In that respect, you look at more than power showings. If Galactus is above good and evil and not subject to judgement for his actions, how can the Wrath of God possibly do anything to him?

You insinuate that I cannot even talk about how Galactus is above judgement through abstract principles of how their respective roles work in the cosmic consonance. AND YET, hypocritically in your first posts you squealed about how the Wrath of God can't be beaten by anyone. You're throwing mud at everyone but yourself.

You then try to paint yourself as a very reasonable person by comparing my posts with Illadelph12's. But your treatment is exactly the same:

Essentially Juntai: "Even though I had made character roles the highlights of my initial arguments, I don't care about your counter-points anymore, because you can only argue the way I want you to argue. And character roles no longer count. I want to talk only about feats."

Your treatments of my posts and Illadelph12's posts are the same and the fact is, everything that's been thrown to doubt your opinion of the fight, whether by argumentative posts by myself or questions which raise doubts by Illadelph12, you've chalked up to PIS or downright childish ignorance. If you want to pout and take your ball and go home that's fine. Don't expect either of us to suddenly agree with your version when you can't or refuse to reconcile our legitimate arguments/questions with your theories.

In the next post, I'll reconcile exactly what the hell's been going on with the Spectre since someone asked.

Originally posted by illadelph12
By a human.

Yet he's infallable to a point that Thanos can't pull a fast one on him, but Luthor could?

I don't think that's a fair comparison. What Alex pulled off makes Thanos look like a stillborn child. He pulled off multiverse creating/shaking powers without "infinity gems" or "Hotu's" lying around.

The guy's IC plan was genius in every sense of the word.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
'Green Lantern: Rebirth' was very clear for me. And your version is incorrect. You posit that Spectre's power could not be brought to bear on Parallax because Hal wouldn't let him; Spectre requires the host's acquiescence in order to cast wrath and power. Hal did not throw a switch to allow Spectre to judge Parallax. Spectre went around killing people with his powers without a host directly after 'Rebirth' without a host. Therefore, your theory is DOA on that theory alone. The true version of the events in 'Rebirth' were that Hal weakened Parallax by embracing his greatest fear and overcoming it. Because Parallax requires fear in the soul to latch onto, Hal's overcoming of fear loosened Parallax's grip on him. By loosening his grip on him, Parallax concomitantly lost his grip on the Spectre's power which was directly connected with Hal's soul.

You never toppled my points and I actually went further and reconciled everything you said with my interpretation of Spectre. You did not. In fact, you used the excuse of PIS more often than my tastes normally allow. Then you and your friend started going off on tangents to avoid having to own up to your failures. I had never seen so many retreats and topic changes in any thread as that one. And ALL of the topic and subject changes were initiated by you and your friend. You've read more Spectre historically, I'll admit that. But you continue to disregard a lot of what's going on currently and it smells of bias. You disregarded his ineffectuality against Parallax itself, you disregard his susceptibility to mere manipulation, you disregard vulnerabilities like antimatter. And as always, when people bring up good points you argue PIS... even further than that, you try to define the parameters of how we're allowed to argue. Let me illustrate that here:

1) Just because we all agree Spectre is a piece of God is not dispositive of Galactus' own importance. Marvel has never gone to such definite lengths to define who is what to God. But be very clear, because you continue to avoid this point: Galactus' role in the universe is to balance and eventually be the end and beginning. Spectre's role is to cast wrath upon those who do evil. Reduced even further, you're comparing The Necessary Being For Balance and the Cycle of the Universe vs. The Bringer of God's Wrath. There is no logic in believing the latter is more important than the former.

-And then your old familiar move happens again, topic change, except it's even more overt than just ignoring what I said and bringing up something new-

2) Your next point is to put those arguments in a box and ignore them. All of a sudden, we have to follow your directions and make this debate about a feat comparison thread in terms of pure power. This isn't feat vs feat. KMC vs. battles have never been reduced to such simple-minded arguments. The fact is, if someone is immune from another's powers, that's an advantage. Just because Havok has greater destructive power in low and high showings than Cyclops, means nothing about Havok definitively overpowering through feats and thus beating Cyclops, when Cyclops is immune to his power. In that respect, you look at more than power showings. If Galactus is above good and evil and not subject to judgement for his actions, how can the Wrath of God possibly do anything to him?

You insinuate that I cannot even talk about how Galactus is above judgement through abstract principles of how their respective roles work in the cosmic consonance. AND YET, hypocritically in your first posts you squealed about how the Wrath of God can't be beaten by anyone. You're throwing mud at everyone but yourself.

You then try to paint yourself as a very reasonable person by comparing my posts with Illadelph12's. But your treatment is exactly the same:

Essentially Juntai: "Even though I had made character roles the highlights of my initial arguments, I don't care about your counter-points anymore, because you can only argue the way I want you to argue. And character roles no longer count. I want to talk only about feats."

Your treatments of my posts and Illadelph12's posts are the same and the fact is, everything that's been thrown to doubt your opinion of the fight, whether by argumentative posts by myself or questions which raise doubts by Illadelph12, you've chalked up to PIS or downright childish ignorance. If you want to pout and take your ball and go home that's fine. Don't expect either of us to suddenly agree with your version when you can't or refuse to reconcile our legitimate arguments/questions with your theories.

In the next post, I'll reconcile exactly what the hell's been going on with the Spectre since someone asked.

Where do you get stuff like this pouting and taking my ball home analogy? It's laughable at best you try to degrade me through an entire post, and give nothing to support the characters you're debating for, and their chances against the Wrath of God. You're acting as if I'm upset about the happenings here.. Why would I be upset? I've no reason to be. For all your long-winded-ness[is that a word?].. you've really said very little.

Everyone's agreeing Spectre wins, even Illidelph isn't disputing the victory. Only you. A few people even thought it was a joke thread back at the beginning.

Spectre doesn't have to outright destroy Aegis or Tenebrous for the victory, merely defeat them. Which he's certainly shown the type of power that could accomplish such a goal....Meanwhile you've done nothing to suggests either of them being neccisary to the existance of Marvel in either case..besides the idea that they're up in POWER with Galactus... that's why your debate circles around Galactus instead, who is NOT in this thread at all, therefore not viable in any way towards this.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I don't think that's a fair comparison. What Alex pulled off makes Thanos look like a stillborn child. He pulled off multiverse creating/shaking powers without "infinity gems" or "Hotu's" lying around.

The guy's IC plan was genius in every sense of the word.

Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets.

Well, after once again addressing your points and arguing against them, you change the topic again. Your assertions about Hal/Spectre/Parallax relationship, Spectre/host relationship, Galactus' place in the food chain and all my counter-points... once again, placed in a box and unrefuted. That's a right smart move you make there, Juntai. Forgetting about Galactus since it is quite obvious how vulnerable your position is and move back onto Tenebrous and Aegis. I'd call this a retreat, but it's not totally fair to say that because that is the title of this thread.

Essentially, you're saying Tenebrous and Aegis don't have much to show, so stop talking about Galactus. Let me tell you why I talk about Galactus so much and why I believe all my arguments are still exactly on point for this thread. One, in my first post, after giving my opinions on Spectre and Galactus I said, paraphrasing of course, "That as far as we know, Tenebrous and Aegis are Galactus' peers and equals." Therefore, I've been applying my arguments through analogy.

You did not refute this point with me up until now. Apparently, you disagree with it. But I suppose it is a fair question. Just because they are his peers and equals, why automatically assume they are as powerful... or indeed, as important as Galactus? If that is what you want to talk about... fine. You changed the topic to cover your tracks of never replying to my counter-points, I don't care. I'll take every new topic change gladly because I consider it a weakening of your position when you do not counter my points.

Juntai's New Topic: If I've got such a hard-on as to why Galactus is indeed more important to existence than Spectre, I should prove Aegis and Tenebrous to be on the same level before applying analogy to this thread. Fair enough. Where do I get this assumption? 'Annihilation' itself only shows them in flashbacks and you can't get much out of there appearances other than, they are in fact Galactus' equals in power, both stated and seen in action. What about their roles in the cosmic consonance however? Well, you get it from Silver Surfer: Annihilation.

In Silver Surfer: Annihilation, Aegis and Tenebrous are described as, "Proemial Elders. Serving to make ready the way for that which follows." Now we know their roles are the exact same as Galactus'. Galactus himself, also refers to all of them collectively as, "We of the cosmic balance."

So how does all this bear on your point that Aegis and Tenebrous are not Galactus' equals? I pretty much proved you wrong. How does this bear on Galactus having nothing to do with this thread? I say, I pretty much proved you wrong again because they are equals. It's there in black and white, they are equals in power and peers in the role of cosmic balance. The only reason I've been talking more about Galactus is because we've seen more of Galactus and can determine how Aegis and Tenebrous would be in hypos, through simple logic and analogy. Now what happens? I'm going to try to get back to the argument at hand. I'll even address your points on power and feats.

1) Your FP Spectre has done some pretty badass stuff. Destroying and remaking the universe is quite badass. But how does that bear on Aegis and Tenebrous? We already know that they've survived the destruction of the universe, so how would a feat like destroying the universe affect them? It wouldn't. What does Spectre do in the first round, immediately destroy and recreate the universe? Guess who's still there? Not only that, but we still haven't even seen FP Aegis or FP Tenebrous. As KMC forum rules go, you put them at their peak powers. From what I've seen of your arguments, you are quite happy throwing FP Spectre and all of his feats at current Aegis and Tenebrous. This is an absolute playing of the field. It's fair to say we haven't seen what power they wield at full capacity, but you actually expect me to not put them into the fight at full power? C'mon now. It's easy enough. Because it's definitive that they are in every way equal to Galactus, FP Galactus is a good source from which to work from. And as agreed, FP Galactus is the End and the Beginning of Everything. Check.

2) Now it is incredibly interesting that you bring up that Spectre would not have to destroy them, only defeat them. The same could be said in reverse. So... essentially Aegis and tenebrous would just have to knock out the Spectre, right? We've seen Spectre knocked out before. In his battle with the Anti-Monitor, we was powerless afterwards and in a state of coma. There, he fought the Anti-Monitor (while augmented by the power of magic) and for simplicity's sake (since you and I disagree on this, but I'll adopt your version), he also receated the universe. This exhausted him and knocked him out. Could FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous put Spectre to task just as well and do that while avoiding being destroyed? I think so.

FP Spectre gets mad, FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous basically stalemating him since Spectre cannot bring any power onto them for bear since they serve cosmic consonance. FP Spectre decides to use his biggest feat, like Superman using T-Vo, destroys the universe and recreates it in hopes of it destroying FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous. It's like reverse-BFR. He doesn't remove them from the battlefield, he removes the battlefield and everything else! Oh, but wait. They've not only already survived Big Crunches but also Big Bangs. So they'd survive not only the destruction, but the rebirth of the universe... and Spectre would be knocked out from exhaustion, a la 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.'

Now look. You and I know what this thread is really about. You can't stand the thought of someone having the opinion that Spectre is somehow lower on the totem pole than Galactus, let alone characters who come out of the blue and are also the equals of Galactus. That's fine. But when you put the Creator's "avatar of vengeance" against the Creator's "bringers of balance and enders and beginners of all that is," the opinion is not that hard to swallow. In fact, it's quite logical. And look, if you still believe that "casting wrath on evildoers" is more important then "bringing balance to the universe and serving the way of all that is," then that's what you believe. And as preposterous and ridiculous as it sounds to me, so be it. Bottom-line, you think vengeance is more important than cosmic balance. Whatever, if emo is your thing, go for it. No, wait. In fact, let me have you speak for yourself. Answer my question:

"Is casting vengeance on evildoers more important than bringing balance to the universe by being the end and beginning of all that is?"

I expect no answer. Which is fine. I don't expect an answer, I don't expect you to own up to where you're clearly wrong and I don't expect you to refute ANY of my rebuttals of your arguments. You're interested in your perception of things and that's it. You're smart too. But debate wise, you're incorrigible and it's a waste of my time when trying to convince a debater who: 1) doesn't refute my rebuttals and 2) who wants to confine the debate to his perception of things. For a while now, I've actually kept going on to every issue you bring up, but it's never enough.

You don't debate, you self-proclaim. Call it a personal attack if you want, but a debate is worthless when carried forth in such a manner. Thread's done, peace.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets.

Spectre beat Mxy? Yay. Is Mxy necessary to the cosmic consonance in the way Galactus is? No. Are you referring to what Mxy would do to weakened Galactus or FP Galactus? What did you say? Did I hear an, "Oops?"

Sit down.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I guess I'll take one last swing. Because while I don't enjoy wasting my breath, I do enjoy slapping posts like this down like a red-headed step-child.

Spectre beat Mxy? Yay. Is Mxy necessary to the cosmic consonance in the way Galactus is? No. Are you referring to what Mxy would do to weakened Galactus or FP Galactus? What did you say? Did I hear an, "Oops?"

Sit down.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I guess I'll take one last swing. Because while I don't enjoy wasting my breath, I do enjoy slapping posts like this down like a red-headed step-child.

Spectre beat Mxy? Yay. Is Mxy necessary to the cosmic consonance in the way Galactus is? No. Are you referring to what Mxy would do to weakened Galactus or FP Galactus? What did you say? Did I hear an, "Oops?"

Sit down.

I'll admit, I haven't read much Mxy. You really think Mxy could beat FP Galactus? Hmph. Do you think it's worth making a thread about? Maybe some Mxy expert will drop in and show me all sorts of neat stuff. Hijacking your idea and making a thread.

How would Spectre fair against The Endless if he were to attack them of his own free will, but they hadn't done anything wrong, and he wasn't commissioned by the Presence to do so

Mr Mxy would smoke Full power Galactus . You can make a thread about it if you want to but I'm sure that atleast 90% of the debaters will say he would beat galactus.

I have to partially agree with OneDumbGo here. Really, I wonder whether Spectre could judge Galactus or not and I PERSONALLY think he couldn't do that. However, as far as I know, there has been no evidence given to support the fact that Aegis and Tenebrous are necessary to the universe or have a position similar to that of Galactus'. Granted, it has been said on panel that they are as powerful as Galactus, but I think there is no factual information about them being above judgement. There is a good bunch of powerful people, who even might be able to take on Galactus, but yet they are not above judgement.

I even suppose that Juntai (Sorry to point out a specific person, but I think you might have a piece of evidence relevant to the statement I'm giving here.) might know a character who is near Galactus in power, or even above that, and was taken down by Spectre.

EDIT: Spectre depowered Mr. Mxy! That was the guy I was looking for. Well, feel free to post other examples...

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets.

Originally posted by Tshern
I have to partially agree with OneDumbGo here. Really, I wonder whether Spectre could judge Galactus or not and I PERSONALLY think he couldn't do that. However, as far as I know, there has been no evidence given to support the fact that Aegis and Tenebrous are necessary to the universe or have a position similar to that of Galactus'. Granted, it has been said on panel that they are as powerful as Galactus, but I think there is no factual information about them being above judgement. There is a good bunch of powerful people, who even might be able to take on Galactus, but yet they are not above judgement.

I even suppose that Juntai (Sorry to point out a specific person, but I think you might have a piece of evidence relevant to the statement I'm giving here.) might know a character who is near Galactus in power, or even above that, and was taken down by Spectre.

EDIT: Spectre depowered Mr. Mxy! That was the guy I was looking for. Well, feel free to post other examples...

Yeah, I edited that to my message. I just had a total blackout and forgot about Mxy. Thanks for that, Juggy.

Spectre doesn't need to judge and destroy for a victory. This is a hypothetical battle.