Originally posted by FeceMan
I'm not a fan of them, either, but what matters is the pastor's intent.
I'm sure these megachurches started off just like the churches and pastors I mentioned earlier. But at some point in time, the original concept gets lost in the face of soaring profit margins and new members to milk.
Originally posted by Devil KingAccepting gifts does not make them bad or unaccountable. It is improper to give gifts away and accepting them is polite and acceptable. That isn't bad and trying to make it out to be is stupid.
Given gifts? What's that? Are they getting something that's way more than they need? Would maybe asking the unsolicited gift be given to someone who needs it be a more Christ-like act? When you can simply live off what your followers give you, you're being given too much.And you mention being monitored by secular banks and making public finacial records. No one is arguing that. But you think they're above making things up because they're a church. And if someone like Ted Haggard is running things, you think he's as good as his word?
As for your claim that they're operating those television channels at a loss is insane. Running satelites and signal stations and the physical buildings at a loss for this long is impossible. They're not the Russian government. And judging from the way you speak, you're a viewer of their programming. Don't you ever get tired of being asked for your money? When the guy sitting on that stage is wearing a $1000 dollar suit, they're either taking more than they need at the expense of those organizations or they're getting what they want because there's enough to go around.
Look, I've known many good and honest men who work for churches and several ministers and pastors who are as real as their word. Good and honest people. But not one of them has worked for a megachurch. Bottom line, when your church is big enough for a gift shop, you've lost sight of your goals.
Where are the biblical examples I asked you for? The good shepard has come a long way from riding a donkey to driving a BMW.
Satellite programs cost the church money, they don't run them because they are profitable. They are paid for by the congregation and don't run a profit. That is sustainable because of the congregation's continuous income. That is what makes it feasible. I don't watch TV evangelists so you judged wrong. I'm saying that they can't make things up because of the committees that oversee the finances and the accountability program. Not all megachurches are members of the ECFA, but most are and it keeps it check effectively. I don't think they are above it and I have many problems with churches and you touched some of them with the gift shop comment, but financial accountibility has increased in the churches and it isn't a major problem with megachurches.
It does not matter what the pastor drives, it has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Accepting gifts does not make them bad or unaccountable. It is improper to give gifts away and accepting them is polite and acceptable. That isn't bad and trying to make it out to be is stupid.
So, you're saying that it's wrong to refuse them because it's rude? I'm not saying accepting gifts is a bad thing. "Here, Pastor Jim, we got you a key chain on our family trip to Hawaii" or "here Pastor Jim, the church got together and wants to give you this christmas bonus" is a hell of a lot diffrent than "Here Pastor Jim, I got you this BMW." He's supposed to treat his calling in life with humility. God didn't call him to lead that life so he could be treated like a rock star. I can hear the muffled whispers now. "Did you hear the Walters gave Pastor Jim a BMW? How pretensious. What can we do to best them in their charity? I know, we'll give him a house!"
I'm certain you think I've developed this synical opinion of these churches because I just don't like religion. But such is not the case. I grew up as a member of these congregations and I have heard the conversations.
Originally posted by Nellinator
It does not matter what the pastor drives, it has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.
Okay, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. But it has a lot to do with what Jesus talked about.
And all in all, I don't think being a minister is any reason to go through life in poverty. It's a little different than what Jesus said, but I wouldn't begrudge any of the men I mentioned a few posts ago. They deserve to be happy and content because that's what they wanted for everyone around them. There's no shame in being comfortable.
As for your statments about the satelites and the signal stations, fine. I'll say you're right. But what about them men themselves? "When the guy sitting on that stage is wearing a $1000 dollar suit, they're either taking more than they need at the expense of those organizations or they're getting what they want because there's enough to go around."
It's kind of hard to call a profit a profit when you're not supposed to be making one at all.
Now we are into the problem with megachurches. Many draw a salary that is larger than I believe is acceptable. However, I can at least respect it when a pastor is open with the numbers. That said, many pastors of megachurches are well known evangelists and draw money from other venues such as sermons on CD or DVD and the books they write. Some make over $1 million doing this, but I'm not about to go against them because most of them have earned and worked hard for that money. Sure, I think they should reduce their salaries and put it into charities, but the problem isn't so much with the pastor as with the people. People shouldn't be giving their pastor a BMW because it is wasteful and ultimately pointless, but that is their choice. Whether or not the pastor accepts should be based on why the person got it for them. I strongly believe in humility, but accepting gifts is not equal to a lack of humility IMO.
Philippians 4:15-19
Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account. I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
Originally posted by Devil King
I believe that "(but deserved)" is a direct insult to your claim that civil unions are legitimate and godly.God hates f@gs is your only real point, just because you sleep with chicks.
Wrong.
I believe that what I meant by "unfortunate (but Deserved) firing" IS:
The man led a church and had an affair. (gay or not)
He made a mistake (as a Christian, I say "sinned"😉, and set his life, reputation, and more importantly his ministry (which hypocrite or not was probably helping thousands of people spiritualy) back by many years, if not for the rest of his life. (a good probability)
He was tempted, failed, and suffered his consequences.
Unfortunate, but deserved.
I still would support civil unions and have said nothing different since my last post in whatever thread that was.
Nor have I posted anything, or even believe in my heart that "God hates f@gs."
Your issues with big business preachers are shared by many Christians, myself included. 😛
I wonder what will happen in the next 7 years as my church goes from 300 to several thousand, we build six more buildings and train interns for ministry and missionary work, build a gym and skate park for youth and help families to grow into the life that God wants for them?
This serves as a great warning that with increase in people (which naturally through tithe and offerings brings increased finances) there is a need to increase dependance on faith and scripture, and to put all that money to good use.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I wonder what will happen in the next 7 years as my church goes from 300 to several thousand, we build six more buildings and train interns for ministry and missionary work, build a gym and skate park for youth and help families to grow into the life that God wants for them?
[A possibility in the distant future]
Maybe your pastor will hypocritically preach to those gathered sheep-like masses about the sins and evil of homosexuality, while secretly paying a male prostitute to sodomize him when he's high off illegal drugs on his private time?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
He was tempted, failed, and suffered his consequences.
This is exactly my point to you about your beliefs. You think the devil tempted him with homosexuality. You think he failed by "giving in" to it. And you think he suffered the appropriate consequences. And I agree with you on one issue. I think he suffered the appropriate consequences, but not for the same reasons. You seem to think he suffered the appropriate consequences because he had an affair. I think he suffered them because he's a hypocrit and a liar. So, maybe you don't think "God hates f@gs", and I overspoke. But you still think god has problems with them, otherwise you wouldn't think it's a sin.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Your issues with big business preachers are shared by many Christians, myself included. 😛
It's just too bad none of them are willing to say anything about it.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I wonder what will happen in the next 7 years as my church goes from 300 to several thousand, we build six more buildings and train interns for ministry and missionary work, build a gym and skate park for youth and help families to grow into the life that God wants for them?
How do you know it will take 7 years? That sounds a lot to me like planning ahead, like a buisness plan. As for gyms and parks, that's an attempt to make the church the center of life for it's followers. It's that kind of needless kool-aid consumption that really bothers me. There's no need to convince people to make the church, the physical building, the center of their life. And it's when you succeed at this measure that you begin to turn into a big buisness megachurch. Once you've convinced people that the church complex alone represents true christianity are you able to convince them to give more than they need to give. This is when they're giving away cars and such. Again, there's nothing humble about a megachurch. NOTHING. If you think Jesus threw a fit outside the temple, you can only imagine what he would do in some of these megachurches today.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Traditionally, marriage involves a religious ceremony.
Marriage liscenses have been around since the middle ages.
In the US, it is mandatory that you recieve a marriage license from the state.
Marraige may "traditionally" involve a religious ceremnony, but there is only one basic requirement for marriage, least in the US.
"Pastor In Gay Sex Scandal Pleads For Cash" Associated PressColorado Springs, Colorado
–The Rev. Ted Haggard, who left the megachurch he founded after admitting to "sexual immorality," has asked supporters for financial assistance while he and his wife pursue their studies.The former New Life Church pastor plans to seek a master's degree in counseling at the University of Phoenix while his wife studies psychology, he said in an e-mail sent this week to KRDO-TV in Colorado Springs.
The couple and two of their sons planned to move Oct. 1 to the Phoenix Dream Center, a faith-based halfway house in Phoenix, where Haggard and his wife would provide counseling, the e-mail said.
"It looks as though it will take two years for us to have adequate earning power again, so we are looking for people who will help us monthly for two years," the e-mail said. "During that time we will continue as full-time students, and then, when I graduate, we won't need outside support any longer."
Haggard left the 10,000-member New Life Church late last year and resigned as head of the National Association of Evangelicals after a former male escort accused Haggard of paying him for sex.
Mike Ware, an overseer for New Life Church, told The Gazette of Colorado Springs on Friday that it was premature of Haggard to release the statement without first consulting the overseers.
A New Life spokesman did not immediately return a phone message left late Friday by The Associated Press.
Haggard received a salary of $115,000 for the 10 months he worked in 2006 and an $85,000 anniversary bonus before the scandal broke, The Gazette reported. Haggard's severance package included a year's salary of $138,000, and he collects royalties on his book titles, the newspaper reported.
El Paso County records show Haggard's home, which has been up for sale, has a market value of $715,051.
Originally posted by Devil King
This is exactly my point to you about your beliefs. You think the devil tempted him with homosexuality. You think he failed by "giving in" to it. And you think he suffered the appropriate consequences. And I agree with you on one issue. I think he suffered the appropriate consequences, but not for the same reasons. You seem to think he suffered the appropriate consequences because he had an affair. I think he suffered them because he's a hypocrit and a liar. So, maybe you don't think "God hates f@gs", and I overspoke. But you still think god has problems with them, otherwise you wouldn't think it's a sin.
Very well said 👆
Too bad some people are too blind to see this.