Originally posted by Devil KingWell actually I believe the salary figure given is rather accurate. You know with the whole accountability program in place for churches now and the audits, the numbers are kept in the open. Many pastors have much higher salaries and there is no shame in admitting them if they are honest. Churches don't make nearly as much money as you are implying and really all you have shown here is incredible ignorance and bias.
Yes, I do. It was Frank in accounting, Betty in sales and Marcia the VP of bullshit. His church doing badly is a fantastic thing. Because it's a organization. It isn't a religion, it isn't a church. It's a ****ing buisness. And that's what all those megachurches are. They're big buisness.As for a reasonable salary, I don't buy it. The President apparently only make 100 grand a year. You think that's really happening too?
The basis for it's existence is immoral and hypocritical.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Well actually I believe the salary figure given is rather accurate. You know with the whole accountability program in place for churches now and the audits, the numbers are kept in the open. Many pastors have much higher salaries and there is no shame in admitting them if they are honest. Churches don't make nearly as much money as you are implying and really all you have shown here is incredible ignorance and bias.
No, what I have shown is an ability to use sarcasm.
As for displaying ignorance, who is the one pretending that a church is above cooking the books? Why? Because they're a church? What other buisness has their own channel? Multiple channels at that. It takes a long time to program all those channels out of your cable system. What other buisness gets to operate on that kind of level and not pay taxes? Where is the bible verse where Jesus tells his followers to make public their profit margins or their hundred thousand dollar salaries? In which book of the bible does he mention a minister needing a BMW?
And the out for your argument is "if they are honest"? Are you serious? "If they are honest" in a thread about Ted Haggard? Do you think Jimmy Swaggart was crying because of shame? He'd just lost a shit load of money.
And as for my bias, where has the fact that I'm biased against megachurches ever been a secret?
Originally posted by Devil KingAnd you have proven to me that you don't know what you are talking about. You do understand that the pastor's of megachurches are given gifts by their patrons? Cars are an extremely common gift to be given. There are even pastors that do not draw personal salaries because they get so many gifts. Channels increase business? Not really, they simply minister to more people. Churches pay for the channels in a way that is unprofitable. Not paying taxes doesn't mean a thing if their finances are public. Money is accounted and whatnot and you see people aren't usually that stupid. Where does most offering money come from? Cheques made out to specific ministries and are monitored by secular banks. From what I've seen you don't know enough about the financial workings of megachurches to be criticizing them.
No, what I have shown is an ability to use sarcasm.As for displaying ignorance, who is the one pretending that a church is above cooking the books? Why? Because they're a church? What other buisness has their own channel? Multiple channels at that. It takes a long time to program all those channels out of your cable system. What other buisness gets to operate on that kind of level and not pay taxes? Where is the bible verse where Jesus tells his followers to make public their profit margins or their hundred thousand dollar salaries? In which book of the bible does he mention a minister needing a BMW?
And the out for your argument is "if they are honest"? Are you serious? "If they are honest" in a thread about Ted Haggard? Do you think Jimmy Swaggart was crying because of shame? He'd just lost a shit load of money.
And as for my bias, where has the fact that I'm biased against megachurches ever been a secret?
Yes, I believe he was crying out of shame after reading the story. Shame is powerful when it's public humiliation of that degree.
I never said it was a secret. I said it was a bias which I think is stupid because most (as in the vast majority) megachurches are clean.
Originally posted by Nellinator
And you have proven to me that you don't know what you are talking about. You do understand that the pastor's of megachurches are given gifts by their patrons? Cars are an extremely common gift to be given. There are even pastors that do not draw personal salaries because they get so many gifts. Channels increase business? Not really, they simply minister to more people. Churches pay for the channels in a way that is unprofitable. Not paying taxes doesn't mean a thing if their finances are public. Money is accounted and whatnot and you see people aren't usually that stupid. Where does most offering money come from? Cheques made out to specific ministries and are monitored by secular banks. From what I've seen you don't know enough about the financial workings of megachurches to be criticizing them.Yes, I believe he was crying out of shame after reading the story. Shame is powerful when it's public humiliation of that degree.
I never said it was a secret. I said it was a bias which I think is stupid because most (as in the vast majority) megachurches are clean.
Given gifts? What's that? Are they getting something that's way more than they need? Would maybe asking the unsolicited gift be given to someone who needs it be a more Christ-like act? When you can simply live off what your followers give you, you're being given too much.
And you mention being monitored by secular banks and making public finacial records. No one is arguing that. But you think they're above making things up because they're a church. And if someone like Ted Haggard is running things, you think he's as good as his word?
As for your claim that they're operating those television channels at a loss is insane. Running satelites and signal stations and the physical buildings at a loss for this long is impossible. They're not the Russian government. And judging from the way you speak, you're a viewer of their programming. Don't you ever get tired of being asked for your money? When the guy sitting on that stage is wearing a $1000 dollar suit, they're either taking more than they need at the expense of those organizations or they're getting what they want because there's enough to go around.
Look, I've known many good and honest men who work for churches and several ministers and pastors who are as real as their word. Good and honest people. But not one of them has worked for a megachurch. Bottom line, when your church is big enough for a gift shop, you've lost sight of your goals.
Where are the biblical examples I asked you for? The good shepard has come a long way from riding a donkey to driving a BMW.