Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Here we go. Another one.WRONG!
It costs FAR MORE to execute someone then to keep them in prison for life. Fact.
Google it, then come back.
The reason it costs more to "execute" someone isn't due to the cost of killing/murdering them, its in the cost of keeping them in jail and having man hours spent on the outside (which costs money)
to make sure they are absolutely guilty.
Originally posted by Soleran
The reason it costs more to "execute" someone isn't due to the cost of killing/murdering them, its in the cost of keeping them in jail and having man hours spent on the outside (which costs money)
to make sure they are absolutely guilty.
Court appeals + proceadures that are mandatory = lots and lots of money.
In California, capital trials are six times more costly than other murder trials.
Cost is about the weakest argument for Death Penalty.
Originally posted by PVS
"in a cage" is a bit melodramatic imho. i just cant get over the hypocricy of convicting someone of killing and call it "murder" and then turn around and kill them, calling it "justice". i just cant wrap my simple mind around it
Well, a prison is like a cage, but that is a non-issue.
Simple:
A murderer kills someone wrongfully out of malicious intent.
The death penalty punishes that person to the maximum extent for their crime.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Court appeals + proceadures that are mandatory = lots and lots of money.Cost is about the weakest argument for Death Penalty.
Ok, so that means what then after that's done it costs around 10-15k a year to keep inmates alive after that process etc etc and thats knowing that they are never going to be released.
My point is that the cost factor portrayed by those that are anti-death penalty is not a true cost of execution if folks are just considering the cost of killing someone and not the process.
Originally posted by Robtard
The death penalty punishes that person to the maximum extent for their crime.
punishment is revenge. the system of law in a free society is based on rehabilitation and keeping the population safe, NOT on punishment. so long as he is dethroned and behind bars, he is no longer a threat. yet thats not good enough.
what we see here is not justice. it is revenge. revenge imho is evil on a personal basis, never mind in a court of law.
Originally posted by PVS
punishment is revenge. the system of law in a free society is based on rehabilitation and keeping the population safe. so long as he is dethroned and behind bars, he is no longer a threat. yet thats not good enough.what we see here is not justice. it is revenge. revenge imho is evil on a personal basis, never mind in a court of law.
I have to agree with the assessment that sometimes locking away a person is not good enough. IMO, if a person kills another just for personal gain, malicious intent or for pleasure, that person in turn deserves to die. Why should someone without regard for another's life go on living, even behind bars safely tucked away? Maybe it is revenge and nothing more, but in some cases, I think it is justified.
Originally posted by Robtard
I have to agree with the assessment that sometimes locking away a person is not good enough. IMO, if a person kills another just for personal gain, malicious intent or for pleasure, that person in turn deserves to die. Why should someone without regard for another's life go on living, even behind bars safely tucked away? Maybe it is revenge and nothing more, but in some cases, I think it is justified.
Well why should they be locked in a jail without anyway to get out, that's punishment just the same as the death penalty is.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Please stop embarrasing yourself.
Its one thing to be ingorant, and complitely different to be annoying one at that.http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#financial%20facts
I'm "embarrasing myself and being ignorant", yet you refuse to acknowledge that killing Saddam Hussein by hanging within 30 days is NOT going to cost the Iraqi people more than what it would have cost them to keep him alive for many years.
Thank you for all of the numbers and facts, and for proving my point:
Convicted murderers and child rapists should be executed quickly, within a month of conviction, if there is DNA evidence, video evidence, or a confession from the accused.
They should be executed cheaply, with a rope or a bullet.
They don't need an appeal, and they certainly don't need a new trial for stabbing an inmate or guard in prison, usually to delay their execution, a few days before it was schedueled to happen. (again, ask my stepdad, a Seargent at San Quentin prison)
All the millions of dollars spent that you posted are from our taxes, and it's a huge waste of time and money to either:
Keep a convicted murderer in prison for life
or
Kill them "humanely".
Life is simple in terms of a murderer or (IMO) a child rapist:
You f*cked up, game over.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Wait.And killing someone on Death Row is not malicious? Hows that?
Lets use John Wayne Gacy as an example... He tortured, raped and killed 33 young men solely for his own personal pleasure. a.k.a malicious intent.
The justice system sentencing him to death was not breed from malicious intent, you can argue that it is "revenge" to some degree, but that is different than maliciously killing someone.
Originally posted by Robtard
I have to agree with the assessment that sometimes locking away a person is not good enough. IMO, if a person kills another just for personal gain, malicious intent or for pleasure, that person in turn deserves to die. Why should someone without regard for another's life go on living, even behind bars safely tucked away? Maybe it is revenge and nothing more, but in some cases, I think it is justified.
do you feel comfortable with the idea of living under a system of law based on revenge?
my opinion is not based in some desire to protect criminals, but rather to avoid becoming the same evil we claim to combat. if that means allowing a scumbag to continue breathing air, then so be it. so long as he is not a threat, and is not free to terrorise others, justice has been served.
i fear a society which considers justice and punishment one and the same.
if you want to have a pick at my brain, research the use of the death penalty in china. never will you see a speedy and more efficient legal killing machine. texas' wet dream, and for me the stuff of nightmares
Originally posted by Robtard
I do not understand your point here... Are you saying we should do away with penalties for crimes?
haha I shouldn't have quoted you when i said that.
No I am saying that if we put them in jail for life with no chance of getting out then thats "punishment" if we kill them then that's "punishment" either way its a form of punishment since rehabilitating them really isn't an option since the sentance that falls upon the criminal is life and beyond in sentance years.
Hence that is really is just a system of revenge and not justice as some people see it.
Originally posted by PVS
do you feel comfortable with the idea of living under a system of law based on revenge?my opinion is not based in some desire to protect criminals, but rather to avoid becoming the same evil we claim to combat. if that means allowing a scumbag to continue breathing air, then so be it. so long as he is not a threat, and is not free to terrorise others, justice has been served.
i fear a society which considers justice and punishment one and the same.
if you want to have a pick at my brain, research the use of the death penalty in china. never will you see a speedy and more efficient legal killing machine. texas' wet dream, and for me the stuff of nightmares
By that rational, sentencing somehow to 10 years in prison for rape would be "revenge" based too.
Yea it is a fine line, but I do feel that some criminals do not deserve to go on living for their crimes. I'm not advocating we should up the death penalties in America, or make the death penalty an option for lesser crimes, but some people simply need to go.
If someone murdered my family in cold blood, I would want that person dead, I would expect the justice system that I adhere too to deliver that for me, so I cannot intellectually condemn the death penalty or I would be a hypocrite.
I know about China, they whack people left and right and sometimes for what would be considered a minor offense in other countries. I happened to mention China's new mobile death systems in a thread above.
Originally posted by Soleran
haha I shouldn't have quoted you when i said that.No I am saying that if we put them in jail for life with no chance of getting out then thats "punishment" if we kill them then that's "punishment" either way its a form of punishment since rehabilitating them really isn't an option since the sentance that falls upon the criminal is life and beyond in sentance years.
Hence that is really is just a system of revenge and not justice as some people see it.
I do see your point, but like I said in the post below, if someone murdered my family or someone I loved, I would want and expect the legal system I adhere too to give me "justice" (revenge), so if I would be against the death penalty now, I would be a hypocrite.
Anyone that is against the death penalty needs to be honest and ask themselves if they would defend someone on death row that killed someone they loved. More power too them if they could, I know I could not.
Originally posted by Robtard
By that rational, sentencing somehow to 10 years in prison for rape would be "revenge" based too.
no it wouldnt be if the sentence was based on the intent to rehabilitate. im not concerned about the satisfaction of the victim. if they dance for joy at the thought of their attacker behind bars, its irrelevant to what im saying. whether it is for the satisfaction (revenge) of our system of law is what i am concerned about. so long as rehabilitation (the very foundation on which the prison system was concieved) is the aim, then the ideal remains true.
Originally posted by Robtard
Yea it is a fine line, but I do feel that some criminals do not deserve to go on living for their crimes. I'm not advocating we should up the death penalties in America, or make the death penalty an option for lesser crimes, but some people simply need to go.
its a slippery slope. the worst way to rationalise such a situation is "what are MY thresholds?" because your way of thinking (vague) can be applied to lesser crimes. perhaps someone else feels that a rapist should be put to death. and the person next to them feels that an armed robber doesnt deserve to live, and then the shoplifters, and then the unpaid parking tickets. ridiculous, yes....but then again, no line is drawn...so where is it?
Originally posted by Robtard
If someone murdered my family in cold blood, I would want that person dead, I would expect the justice system that I adhere too to deliver that for me, so I cannot intellectually condemn the death penalty or I would be a hypocrite.
if someone murdered someone close to me, i would probably want them tortured and eventually killed. thank god we have an impartial system of law which is not based on the passion and vengeance of the victim, but rather balance in society and public safety. i take comfort in knowing that such a sadistic and cruel desire for revenge would not be entertained nor granted by law. why would it be hypocritical to think this way? i think it would be hypocritical to feel superior to someone who endulges their murderous and sadistic nature while demanding the satisfaction of my own.
Originally posted by Robtard
I know about China, they whack people left and right and sometimes for what would be considered a minor offense in other countries. I happened to mention China's new mobile death systems in a thread above.
their trials last all but 5 minutes as well, and are easily manipulated. basically you could find yourself kneeling with a rifle at the back of your head just for pissing off the wrong person for whatever. its the ends for the rational of "some people dont deserve to live" and for those who feel the process should be sped up, no less.
Originally posted by PVS
no it wouldnt be if the sentence was based on the intent to rehabilitate. im not concerned about the satisfaction of the victim. if they dance for joy at the thought of their attacker behind bars, its irrelevant to what im saying. whether it is for the satisfaction (revenge) of our system of law is what i am concerned about. so long as rehabilitation (the very foundation on which the prison system was concieved) is the aim, then the ideal remains true.its a slippery slope. the worst way to rationalise such a situation is "what are MY thresholds?" because your way of thinking (vague) can be applied to lesser crimes. perhaps someone else feels that a rapist should be put to death. and the person next to them feels that an armed robber doesnt deserve to live, and then the shoplifters, and then the unpaid parking tickets. ridiculous, yes....but then again, no line is drawn...so where is it?
if someone murdered someone close to me, i would probably want them tortured and eventually killed. thank god we have an impartial system of law which is not based on the passion and vengeance of the victim, but rather balance in society and public safety. i take comfort in knowing that such a sadistic and cruel desire for revenge would not be entertained nor granted by law. why would it be hypocritical to think this way? i think it would be hypocritical to feel superior to someone who endulges their murderous and sadistic nature while demanding the satisfaction of my own.
their trials last all but 5 minutes as well, and are easily manipulated. basically you could find yourself kneeling with a rifle at the back of your head just for pissing off the wrong person for whatever. its the ends for the rational of "some people dont deserve to live" and for those who feel the process should be sped up, no less.
Curious then, what do you say is to be done to a person who cannot be re-habilitated?
There are many that cannot.
Any sentence then, wether death or life in prison, is a punishment and not a rehabilitation.
I believe that you are misunderstanding our prison system, and that it is most certainly based on punishment for some people, in some cases.
Also, this has what to do with Saddam Hussein?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Curious then, what do you say is to be done to a person who cannot be re-habilitated?There are many that cannot.
Any sentence then, wether death or life in prison, is a punishment and not a rehabilitation.
if they factually cannot be reintroduced into society, then the act of rehabilitation should still be entertained, even for the simple hope of personal salvation (i figured a religious man would get the concept)
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I believe that you are misunderstanding our prison system, and that it is most certainly based on punishment for some people, in some cases.
the western prison system is based on a desire to NOT punish but rather a progressive theory that people can be rehabilitated. if you did some research you would see this. it has nothing to do with punishment. it was concieved to AVOID punishment (which back then simply equated to torture and/or death)
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Also, this has what to do with Saddam Hussein?
pay attention to the conversation and you might find out
reading is fundamental
Originally posted by PVS
no it wouldnt be if the sentence was based on the intent to rehabilitate. im not concerned about the satisfaction of the victim. if they dance for joy at the thought of their attacker behind bars, its irrelevant to what im saying. whether it is for the satisfaction (revenge) of our system of law is what i am concerned about. so long as rehabilitation (the very foundation on which the prison system was concieved) is the aim, then the ideal remains true.its a slippery slope. the worst way to rationalise such a situation is "what are MY thresholds?" because your way of thinking (vague) can be applied to lesser crimes. perhaps someone else feels that a rapist should be put to death. and the person next to them feels that an armed robber doesnt deserve to live, and then the shoplifters, and then the unpaid parking tickets. ridiculous, yes....but then again, no line is drawn...so where is it?
if someone murdered someone close to me, i would probably want them tortured and eventually killed. thank god we have an impartial system of law which is not based on the passion and vengeance of the victim, but rather balance in society and public safety. i take comfort in knowing that such a sadistic and cruel desire for revenge would not be entertained nor granted by law. why would it be hypocritical to think this way? i think it would be hypocritical to feel superior to someone to endulges their murderous and sadistic nature while demanding the satisfaction of my own.
their trials last all but 5 minutes as well, and are easily manipulated. basically you could find yourself kneeling with a rifle at the back of your head just for pissing off the wrong person for whatever. its the ends for the rational of "some people dont deserve to live" and for those who feel the process should be sped up, no less.
Problem with murders though, how do rehabilitate the ones that cannot be rehabilitated? Because locking someone up behind bars for life as a viable option to the death penalty as you mentioned before would not be rehabilitation, it would be more akin to "revenge" as you state the death penalty is.
I agree, but as it stands the death penalty is only an option with murder cases, that is where the line is drawn. People do not get sentenced to death for rape or burglary. There are some extreme cases like treason being punishable by death, but that hasn't happened in how long?
Because 'you'd' be against someone else being put to death if they killed someone that didn't affect 'you' personally but for it if that same person had affected 'your' life. That would be hypocrisy. It's like when Rush Limbaugh stated that all drug users should be jailed and then he turns around and buys/uses enough illegal pain killers to take down a baby elephant.
Another reason I am glad not to live in Communist China...