OT Vader & ROTS Tyranus vs. ROTS Vader & Mace Windu

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What are you talking about? I never said that Vapaad is going to beat Anakin did I? I dont ever recall arguing in a Mace vs Anakin thread. Anakin has nothing to do with this - I was talking about Dooku vs Mace, and why Mace wouldnt win as easy as people make it out to be (thats if Mace wins at all).

you know what, i sincerely apologize...that was Kadesh that was preaching that shit. So sorry to confuse you with him, lol...i feel bad now. But no, really, sorry bout that...got my peeps mixed up. 🙁 😮 🙁
🙁 😮 🙁 😮 🙁 😮

Lol, its fine. Although im rather offended that you got me confused with Kadesh 😠

j/k 😛

yea, I'll go punch myself in the face later, lol. Man I'm working 84 hours this week, I'm just so burnt out right now, it ain't funny...so my bad again for the unnecessary harshness, and confusing you with kadesh, 😛

84 hours!!! Sheesh, I dont blame you for making the mistake then. I couldnt imagine working for that long *looks in embarrassment at the 10 hours of work I did this work*. 😮 😛

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Actually, they will. Doou is definitely is as good a lightsaber duelist as Mace. He has a knowledge ov Vaapad we know and he's beaten Mace before. he's only grown stronger since that time. Plus his power in The Force is too great for Mace to handle.

I guess It's "Pretend to be a Retard Day", If not, I'll clue you in on a few things.

1.Dooku has NO knowledge on Makashi.
2. He beat Mace BEFORE TPM. Mace diden't know Vapaad yet and diden't possess half the power and skill he did in AOTC.
3. His power is too great to handle?
Dosen't matter. His Vapaad can reflect it, or absorb some of it.
Moot point.

Mace would beat him within a minuite.

Man you're stupid.

1.Dooku has NO knowledge on Makashi.

You obviously meant Vaapad. Sora Bulq was key in helpign Mace develop the form. He was also then Dooku's right-hand man. I'm sure he didn't tell Dooku anything about the form....

2. He beat Mace BEFORE TPM. Mace diden't know Vapaad yet and diden't possess half the power and skill he did in AOTC.

And he's gotten stronger since he beat Mace. Dur. You make it sound like Dooku was at Level B while Mace was at Level A and over the years, Mace rose to Level C and Dooku went nowhere. The dark side training with Sidious and all, I'm sure his powers didn't increase at all over the years since he defeated Mace.....

3. His power is too great to handle?
Dosen't matter. His Vapaad can reflect it, or absorb some of it.
Moot point.

Good for him. Vaapad is the ultimate form to combat against everything but Makashi is the ultimate form for lightsaber duels. Hence, it is a better quality in this type of encounter. Also, the fight the two had in the Clone Wars, they were dead even and Dooku pushed Mace back. So, your claiming

Mace would beat him within a minuite.

is to be taken as the words spouted from a person with an IQ range equivalent to Paris Hilton's vocal range. HINT: I'm implying your IQ range is severely limited.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
I guess It's "Pretend to be a Retard Day", If not, I'll clue you in on a few things.

Its a friendly argument. No need to get titchy. I could say the same thing about you thinking that Mace would win with such ease. 😉

1.Dooku has NO knowledge on Makashi.

😆

2. He beat Mace BEFORE TPM. Mace diden't know Vapaad yet and diden't possess half the power and skill he did in AOTC.

Didnt Dooku beat Mace again during the CW? This is when Mace had fully mastered Vapaad and was probably nearing his prime.

3. His power is too great to handle?

In terms of force abilities I would put Dooku slightly above Mace. After all, Dooku has trained under both Yoda and Sidious, the strongest practicioners of their respective sides of the force. He also has had decades more time to train and master the force.

Dosen't matter. His Vapaad can reflect it, or absorb some of it.
Moot point.

No, not point moot. You imply that Vapaad is some godly form, which is unbeatable to dark siders. While it does give Mace an advantage it is hardly a guaranteed victory. You seem to forget that Dooku has mastered the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat and has again had decades more time to practice.

Mace would beat him within a minuite.

Hell no.

Didnt Dooku beat Mace again during the CW? This is when Mace had fully mastered Vapaad and was probably nearing his prime.

Stalemate, though I'd say Dooku was doing slightly better.

In terms of force abilities I would put Dooku slightly above Mace. After all, Dooku has trained under both Yoda and Sidious, the strongest practicioners of their respective sides of the force. He also has had decades more time to train and master the force.

Force mastery, yes Dooku would be above Mace but Mace has more raw power I'd say.

Honestly, DS. Give me a break. No one, not even "Dooku fanboys" like myself and Ox think Dooku pwns Mace in any sense. If they fought, it be one hell of a fight. No way is any battle between the two going all out ending in a minute. I'v egive a lot to see a full-on battle between Dooku and Mace.

Yoda refers to Vaapad being "the deadliest" lightsaber form. I'd say that that alone puts Vaapad above Makashi. Also, Vaapad is highly effective against dark side users... which happens to be Dooku.

Dooku and Mace fought on Boz Pity once, and Dooku had Grievous's Magnaguards interrupt the fight. But it was a stalemate, and the fight was interrupted, so I don't see where someone says Dooku was winning.

And, given that Mace beat Palpatine (who is more powerful than Dooku) I'd say it's very possible that Dooku could lose.

imo, Sidious could have defeated Mace in their saber battle pretty early on, he was just using Mace to turn Anakin to the darkside.

Originally posted by Dessel
imo, Sidious could have defeated Mace in their saber battle pretty early on, he was just using Mace to turn Anakin to the darkside.

Seems logical, given Sidious's manipulative tendancies... but just speculation.

well dont make me laugh my ass off, firstly OT vader alone could beat ROTS presuit vader, why? because presuit vader goes apeshit, he doesnt think and he brutally beats his opponents, he hardly uses force attacks while OT vader on the other hand is far more experienced with the dark side and has a much wider range of force powers, OT vaders telekenesis alone could rip a huge tree which is not damaged in any way and throws it at roan shryne, Vader even used a waterfall to his advantage to distract the dark woman and yet he could destroy tanks on the battlefield as EAW proved, his force push is far more incredible than his predecessor pushing tark against gravity and smashs him on the ceiling while being able to push a thug in empire vol1 back many many yards, His lightsaber skills alone have improved and yet he can fence off 4 jedi at once while choking another

prehaps you should look at this quote
But even still, Vader wielded tremendous power and skill.

Heres one more
To counter fast-moving opponents, he would use the Force to pull out anything from his surroundings and fling the improvised missiles at his opponent. Without moving a muscle, anything from the venue of the battle could be used as a weapon to crash against Vader's opponents from all directions in a neverending barrage.

And another good one
Taking the proper lessons from his loss to Kenobi, he apparently learned how to control his emotions when in combat, finding a way to call upon calculated bursts of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions running amok.

heres the last Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and ordered a new, improved batch of them. As his finesse improved they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

This is intresting
The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice "more machine now than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that were Vader to fully confront his choices and disappointments, to completely shake himself out of his despair, that he would have been able to "reawaken the incredible power within him"

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Didnt Dooku beat Mace again during the CW? This is when Mace had fully mastered Vapaad and was probably nearing his prime.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

In terms of force abilities I would put Dooku slightly above Mace. After all, Dooku has trained under both Yoda and Sidious, the strongest practicioners of their respective sides of the force. He also has had decades more time to train and master the force.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

No, not point moot. You imply that Vapaad is some godly form, which is unbeatable to dark siders. While it does give Mace an advantage it is hardly a guaranteed victory. You seem to forget that Dooku has mastered the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat and has again had decades more time to practice.

Originally posted by Kadesh
No he didnt. If dooku really beat mace then dooku would have tooled sidious considering mace and sidious are equals in saber combat, And remember, sidious can move faster than the eye can see, does that make dooku even faster?

Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! partially you are correct, dooky has grip and lighting, mace has crush and grip, note that crush is the highest form of grip, so i consider mace has 2 dark force powers

Palpatine only moved too fast to see in Dark Empire with the Emperor Reborn. Palpatine did lose to Mace in a lightsaber battle but yet he defeated Yoda who everyone says is better then Mace but Palpatine used the Force in the battle. If Palpatine did use the Force against Mace in their battle Mace would have died before Anakin arrived.

And it is possible that Palpatine threw the fight with Mace to turn Anakin to the dark side.

Also there is no such thing as a light side / dark side force power. That is just the EU trying to make everything seem overpowered and dark.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Man you're stupid. [B]

Look who's talking. 😉

[B]You obviously meant Vaapad. Sora Bulq was key in helpign Mace develop the form. He was also then Dooku's right-hand man. I'm sure he didn't tell Dooku anything about the form....[B]

Yep. But I was testing you to see If you were paying attention to my post. Obviously you were, but weren't smart enough to figure out what I was doing. Unfortunatly, neither was Rampant and few of the others. 🙄 😆

[B]And he's gotten stronger since he beat Mace. Dur. You make it sound like Dooku was at Level B while Mace was at Level A and over the years, Mace rose to Level C and Dooku went nowhere. The dark side training with Sidious and all, I'm sure his powers didn't increase at all over the years since he defeated Mace.....[B]

Actaully, Mace got alot stronger through his years of training after TPM than Dooku ever did. Dooku's Dark Side training did make him more formidable, but it weakened him ever so against Mace's Vapaad.

[B]Good for him. Vaapad is the ultimate form to combat against everything but Makashi is the ultimate form for lightsaber duels. Hence, it is a better quality in this type of encounter. Also, the fight the two had in the Clone Wars, they were dead even and Dooku pushed Mace back. So, your claiming[B]

Wrong. Vapaad is the ultimate Form to combat the Dark Side.
Also, Juyo, Vapaad's core art, is actaully the ultimate Lightsaber Dueling Form, not Makashi. Juyo is like a revamped and expanded version of all the main Lightsaber Forms, and all techniques are fused together uniquely to to express the most effective and simplistic of attacks and defense. This makes it the premier Lightsaber Form for swordsmanship and as a matter of fact, It is known that Juyo excells in the area of dueling against multiple opponants in sword combat. Whereas Makashi is strictly created as a one-on-one type art and begins to lose its benefits after only one opponant is added into a duel.
Also, In the Clone Wars comic, Dooku was clearly leery of fighting Mace and even admitted the possibility of Mace being able to kill him in combat. So much In fact that he had a few of the Magna Gaurd with him to fight a delaying action against Mace so he could escape. 😉

[B] is to be taken as the words spouted from a person with an IQ range equivalent to Paris Hilton's vocal range. HINT: I'm implying your IQ range is severely limited.

Now, If we're taking IQ's into account here, A.You coulden't seem to intelligently deduce what I was trying to do with my first statement, which was to observe If you were paying attention or not. You were, but weren't smart enough to figure out my true intention. 😉
I'd say that's a lil' dumb of you.
B.If we're talking about people with the IQ of Paris Hilton, that would most likely be your mom. For a number of reasons, but mostly for not getting your head checked by a doctor.
C.So If your Implying my IQ range is limited at all, perhaps you should look in the mirror. 🙄

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
So If your Implying my IQ range is limited at all, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

It's "You're", and, if you couldn't tell that he was implying that your IQ is low...

Spoiler:
he was.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Now, If we're taking IQ's into account here, A.You coulden't seem to intelligently deduce what I was trying to do with my first statement, which was to observe If you were paying attention or not. You were, but weren't smart enough to figure out my true intention. 😉
I'd say that's a lil' dumb of you.
B.If we're talking about people with the IQ of Paris Hilton, that would most likely be your mom. For a number of reasons, but mostly for not getting your head checked by a doctor.
C.So If your Implying my IQ range is limited at all, perhaps you should look in the mirror. 🙄

Dude, how old are you? Your mom? look in the mirror? Are you like 14 or 15? That's not helping your IQ argument. You could have done better than that. And don't try to play off the Makashi comment, just say you fvcked up and move on. You think no one can see through that?

I don't know, man. Just stick to the debate and drop the insults, you're a little better at debating...when you have your facts straight, of course. It OK to concede sometimes. It'll actually make you look more intelligent that way. 😬

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Palpatine only moved too fast to see in Dark Empire with the Emperor Reborn. Palpatine did lose to Mace in a lightsaber battle but yet he defeated Yoda who everyone says is better then Mace but Palpatine used the Force in the battle. If Palpatine did use the Force against Mace in their battle Mace would have died before Anakin arrived.

And it is possible that Palpatine threw the fight with Mace to turn Anakin to the dark side.

Also there is no such thing as a light side / dark side force power. That is just the EU trying to make everything seem overpowered and dark.

Firstly Nothing has ever proven sidious would let himself lose and mace beat him, why? 1stly its very risky because he know mace would kill him definately, Secondly its because pal was not able to execute any force powers, he wasnt far enough and doing one during a duel is extremely risky, And from what i have seen, he strikes force powers only when he gets disarmed, proof? ROTS, the battle with yoda, DE, he was never shown to use any powers until AFTER he gets disarmed when he lost his left hand, Then he did force storm and he also was able to summon lightning on mace when he is on the floor, He did all that after getting disarmed

About the so called sidious letting mace win is just speculation. I hate it when rumors break out and there is no proof. Didnt excape mention that mace = sidious is sheer swordplay? that it was mace shatterpoint which led him to victory? And you could hear palpatine groaning after he got kicked on his face and he was crawling away even before anakin came in.

that it was mace shatterpoint which led him to victory?

Escape was wrong, this is false.

only when he gets disarmed, proof? ROTS, the battle with yoda,

When did he get disaremd against Yoda?