Side? My own side. I'm the side who is:
a.) Proving that RotS Anakin > RotS Dooku in skill and power by a sizeable amount.
Faunus is supposedly going to disprove this, but three days later, I haven't had a response. I respect the guy, but the whole bash session that he and Zephiel had at my expense gets rather annoying when he doesn't come back to disprove my argument like he said he would.
b.) Proving that Sidious did not restrain Count Dooku in any way, but was merely looking for the stronger apprentice. He was not after potential.
c.) Proving that Sidious even acknowledged that Anakin may never be ready for Sith apprenticeship - which only further supports point B.
I am also curious as to the status of the novelization in arguments. According to Zephiel and Faunus, the novelization merely expands upon the movie itself. If that is the case:
a.) Anakin > Dooku by a hell of a lot.
b.) Sidious > Yoda by a hell of a lot.
c.) Sidious's ability to manipulate dwarfs the power of the Force itself. In my opinion, that's a bit extreme - but hey! If the novelization is always canon and can always be argued, then this is the final, undisputable gospel.
Originally posted by Gideon
[B]Because if Anakin had the mentality to use his knowledge against Obi-Wan, even when he was in the middle of a psychotic rage - then I could see him taking Dooku out
Hell no.
He was of the mentality to be familiar with someone he spent thousands of hours sparring with, but not enough to counteract his own reckless nature. Which of course, left him being chopped to pieces.
Well, then there you have it. If he didn't lose the mentality he had before he fell, then he could take Count Dooku. It seems that Palpatine's advice to Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand battle stuck with him.
The novelization says nothing about the fact that Anakin was fighting with the clarity that he had on board the invisible hand. My point is, that specific instant was the exception to Anakin Skyalker. His fighting with this type of clarity would allow him to easily kill Obi Wan. With Dooku, there is far more intelligent fighting, superior tactics, and mindgames involved.
And, as you said, he kept the same mentality.
I never said he kept the same mentality as in the case when Palpatine interfered. In fact I am of the position that this was an exception to Anakin’s usual behavior. If he kept that type of clarity, then he would utterly tear through Obi Wan's defenses, as I said previously. Kenobi, and the Count, are in general far more level headed opponents, who being weaker in sheer power make up for it with the superior tactics.
Zephiel, Anakin's mentality towards Obi-Wan is no bearing on what mentality he may or may not have against Count Dooku. Bear in mind that Anakin operated under the delusion that Obi-Wan turned against him, and that he also turned Padme (his very reason for pledging allegiance to the Sith) against him as well.
His hatred for Obi-Wan doesn't necessarily mean that he'd be identical to Dooku.
Originally posted by Gideon
Zephiel, Anakin's mentality towards Obi-Wan is no bearing on what mentality he may or may not have against Count Dooku. Bear in mind that Anakin operated under the delusion that Obi-Wan turned against him, and that he also turned Padme
Seeing as I have never seen or heard of this in the novel...that Anakin was infact fighting worse due to his fury...I will remain skeptical. It seems like a rule to his behaviour and fighting style. Fight with power, but with recklesness too.
If we go by your logic, then we also have to admit that the emotional grievances affecting combat were with both sides. That is, Obi Wan knew he had to kill the boy he loved as a little brother on account of his stupidity. In either case, Obi Wan's fighting must have been clouded too. I don't know if I could fight at my peak if I were to suddenly attack a brother or sister.
I maintain my position that the "burst of clarity" on the "Invisible Hand" was the exception to Anakin Skywalker. It can't be generalized to what we mean by when we say "ROTS Anakin."
Seeing as I have never seen or heard of this in the novel...that Anakin was infact fighting worse due to his fury...I will remain skeptical. It seems like a rule to his behaviour and fighting style. Fight with power, but with recklesness too.
Please, Zephiel. If I may echo your words, if we go by "your logic", then any opponent with a calm state of mind will simply crush Anakin in a fight. I suppose people adherant to that rule also includes the likes of Jango Fett and Coleman Trebor?
It is ridiculous to assume that anybody with such a mentality will triumph over Anakin. Obi-Wan did because he carried the mental edge, and his knowledge of Anakin's fighting tactics is unparalleled.
If we go by your logic, then we also have to admit that the emotional grievances affecting combat were with both sides. That is, Obi Wan knew he had to kill the boy he loved as a little brother on account of his stupidity. In either case, Obi Wan's fighting must have been clouded too. I don't know if I could fight at my peak if I were to suddenly attack a brother or sister.
Of course Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin. But as we saw, by the end of the fight, he was more than willing to leave him to die. Obi-Wan's decision reflects one that Yoda seemed to have during AotC. I hardly think that Yoda was going all out on Count Dooku in the sense that he did not use every opportunity available to kill him. It is my opinion that he intended to wear him down, and I believe even Obi-Wan intended to originally capture Count Dooku instead of killing him.
But, Obi-Wan was not fighting to the least of his ability. Even the Emperor said that one of the reasons that Obi-Wan triumphed was because: "he came there with a single intention in mind: to destroy Darth Vader."
I maintain my position that the "burst of clarity" on the "Invisible Hand" was the exception to Anakin Skywalker. It can't be generalized to what we mean by when we say "ROTS Anakin."
That is your choice. But I maintain my position that RotS Vader's hatred of Obi-Wan =/= his hatred for Dooku, so you can't go around and assume that their mentality would be the same and that he'd make a mistake.
Originally posted by Gideon
Please, Zephiel. If I may echo your words, if we go by "your logic", then any opponent with a calm state of mind will simply crush Anakin in a fight. I suppose people adherant to that rule also includes the likes of Jango Fett and Coleman Trebor?
You’re kidding me right. I said that the Count and Kenobi succeeded by virtue of them possessing the psychological advantage. I am sorry if you mistake this with Jango and Coleman Trebor possessing the same type of psychological advantage, because last time I checked, neither of the two could use the force.
It is ridiculous to assume that anybody with such a mentality will triumph over Anakin.
I never implied such. I was basing it on the context of talented force users such as the Count and Kenobi.
Of course Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin. But as we saw, by the end of the fight, he was more than willing to leave him to die.
Inasmuch as he felt Palpatine’s prescence coming to save Vader. He said that he would do Ani’s children a favour out of love for the man. He didn’t go down and gut Vader, even though he knew it would a be a “mercy killing.” He literally couldn’t bring himself to
Obi-Wan's decision reflects one that Yoda seemed to have during AotC. I hardly think that Yoda was going all out on Count Dooku in the sense that he did not use every opportunity available to kill him.
Your point with this? I am of the position to that Obi Wan couldn’t bring himself to the state of mind that would let him fight to his peek efficiency.
But, Obi-Wan was not fighting to the least of his ability. Even the Emperor said that one of the reasons that Obi-Wan triumphed was because: "he came there with a single intention in mind: to destroy Darth Vader."
Basing Obi Wan's behaviour on some random quote by Palpatine? This is fallacious to the nth degree. Last I checked, Obi Wan was his own man. The emperor can “guess” and “speculate” as to Kenobi’s intentions. But the fact remains that he was hardly fighting at his peak efficiency when up against Vader. He mentions this. If you want a quote, ask up.
I was commenting on your position. That the fight was one-sided, that Vader somehow possessed the disadvantage. If we go by this logic (which again I feel the need to mention was not explicity stated in the book, nor was implied), then Obi Wan would also face such disadvantages. Ultimately, the external psychological factors affecting these two combatants should be nullified by the virtue of the fact that they are both suffering from them.
Then it just leads to one things, Anakin’s natural recklessness is what led to him losing the battle. The “Invisible Hand” was an exception.
Originally posted by Gideon
Then there you have it. According to you, RotS Vader didn't have the mental disadvantage that he had as Anakin.Then Dooku's already dead in this.
What? Can we say avoiding the point completely?
I said that recklessness was something intrinsic to his nature. It has been demonstrated time and time again. It can be extorted and manipulated into making him lose. The clarity he exhibited in the invisible hand, an exception, preceded by "ideal circumstances," are what led him to win.
Dooku, like a consummate duelist, can capitalize on this character flaw. Maybe not all the times but it is a distinct possibiltiy and one that, IMO, reflects on the general outcome of any duel between these two combattants.
That said and done, it is partially dependent on our view points. Sheer power? Intelligent fighting? Differing opinions on what a good duelist is.
You are of course, entitled to your own opinion. Much of this is subjective in a sense anyways, as I have said before. I won't criticize your position any longer.
I'm out.