The Living Tribunial Vs. The Monitor

this from a REMARKABLY (though unofficial) informed website dedicated to hypertime:

Here's what we know about the Crisis, step by step:

Before the Crisis, an infinite number of worlds existed in one "central" DCU timeline.
The Anti-Monitor sought to destroy this Multiverse with an anti-matter wave.
The universes within this Multiverse that were not destroyed outright were merged to become ONE SINGLE UNIVERSE again.
Shortly after the Crisis, DCU history was retroactively altered so that there was NEVER a Multiverse.
The last point seems to contradict what I said earlier about the Linear Men having record of the Crisis, but not really. It's similar to have a sentence written on a piece of paper, and taking a photograph of that piece of paper. If you erase the sentence, it's the same as it never having been there. But you still have the photograph, which contradicts the physical evidence of the blank page. The records at Vanishing Point (the HQ of the Linear Men) show a crisis in which 10 billion years of infinite histories were condensed into ONE history, but this contradicts 10 billion years of actual history that NEVER had a Multiverse. So, even though the Multiverse NEVER existed, it DID exist. If this seems paradoxical, don't worry, it's SUPPOSED to be. I don't believe the pre-Crisis Multiverse is *technically* reachable through Hypertime.

The Crisis DID effectively wipe out the Multiverse contained within the previous 50 years' worth of DC Comics stories. BUT, keeping in mind that there are an infinite number of timelines out there, there are undoubtedly Hypertimelines where the Crisis did not happen and the Multiverse (similar to the one we used to read about) lives on. And all of those pre-Crisis-type worlds ARE accessible to modern DCU characters.

hypertime>multiverse? who knows, but again, just because dc's cosmology is different from marvel's does not necessarily mean we can say marvel's cosmics are "greater". marvel seems to have an infinite amount of lakes, while dc has one infinitely large ocean with hypertime running like an infinite current through the middle of it.

darth was right -- the ONE universe DID get split into myriad planes, but even since then dcu cosmology has been altered.

dc is HARD to figure out . . .

🙁

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't know if you paid attention to Goober's findings but, AM didn't even have the power of ONE Universe, he was 4 Universes shy from attaining Eternity (single Universe) status.

Originally posted by leonidas
just because dc's cosmology is different from marvel's does not necessarily mean we can say marvel's cosmics are "greater". marvel seems to have an infinite amount of lakes, while dc has one infinitely large ocean with hypertime running like an infinite current through the middle of it.

That's a pretty inaccurate description or comparison of both Realities.

If DC is one Infinite Ocean, then Marvel is an Infinite number of Oceans and more.

And I'm being nice by saying that, cause literally,

DC is ONE Infinite Universe.

Marvel has an Omni-verse, which is an Infinite number of Multi-verses, and every Multi-verse is Infinite and every Universe with in every Multi-verse is Infinite aswell.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's a pretty inaccurate description or comparison of both Realities.

If DC is one Infinite Ocean, then Marvel is an Infinite number of Oceans and more.

And I'm being nice by saying that, cause literally,

DC is ONE Infinite Universe.

Marvel has an Omni-verse, which is an Infinite number of Multi-verses, and every Multi-verse is Infinite and every Universe with in every Multi-verse is Infinite aswell.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's a pretty inaccurate description or comparison of both Realities.

If DC is one Infinite Ocean, then Marvel is an Infinite number of Oceans and more.

And I'm being nice by saying that, cause literally,

DC is ONE Infinite Universe.

Marvel has an Omni-verse, which is an Infinite number of Multi-verses, and every Multi-verse is Infinite and every Universe with in every Multi-verse is Infinite aswell.

And by the Multiverses and Universes can't be infinite because that would mean that there is no end for them but in fact there has to be otherwise there could never be anything greater than it.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not true. DC is far more than one universe.

I have no problem believing you once you produce evidence.

Cause that's what I got from COIE.

Those Elseworlds Realities don't exist, so I'm figuring that's not the strength of your argument.

Originally posted by Newjak
This raises a grand question is multiple Infinites greater than one.

In Marvel?

Yes.

This is how Marvel, the company that creates these characters measures INFINITY

Originally posted by Newjak
And by the Multiverses and Universes can't be infinite because that would mean that there is no end for them but in fact there has to be otherwise there could never be anything greater than it.

An INFINITE Multi-verse with INFINITE Universes.

The Omni-verse, this is how it looks from the OUTSIDE:

When Warlock first exited the Multi-verse, he entered a place called the Cosmic Vortex.

In it, an INFINITE number of MULTI-VERSES are spiralling upward into an INFINITY beyond INFINITY

And this is how it looks from the INSIDE:

I wont debate the On Panel evidence, whoever can't digest this, write a letter to Marvel and let your voice be heard. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have no problem believing you once you produce evidence.

Cause that's what I got from COIE.

Those Elseworlds Realities don't exist, so I'm figuring that's not the strength of your argument.

Then there's this:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9969/thespectrev40713hz6.jpg

With every thought from every being, another reality is manifested across the infinite.

Also a cool feat with Spectre spreading himself across the infinite.

Later in the series, although the respect thread doesn't go that high so I couldn't pull the scan, Hal also lets us know that not only are there infinite realities copied across, but infinitely-layered planes of existance as well.

COIE is an old tale, don't put all your stock in it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have no problem believing you once you produce evidence.

Cause that's what I got from COIE.

Those Elseworlds Realities don't exist, so I'm figuring that's not the strength of your argument.

they DO exist -- within hypertime. even the PRE-crisis days exist -- within hypertime.

anyway, here's a little bit on lt:

interesting to note a couple things:

he apparently IS multiversal (there are other scans i could find reiterating this, but i like this one 🙂 ), he is apparently ABOVE the brothers, AND he thinks of the hoodded one as an ally, once again drawing a comparison bewteen himself and the spectre.

the ocean/lakes comparison wasn't perfect, perhaps, but within the ONE dcu, there was MULTIPLE univserses/realities all kept separate via hypertime. hypertime is WITHIN the grander dcu. essentially the dcu is layered with 'infinite universes' because hypertime grants access to ANY world that ever existed in dc. marvel has no parallel EXCEPT the multiverse.

they seem remarkably similar.

Originally posted by Juntai

COIE is an old tale, don't put all your stock in it.

spectre rocks! 😄

and more to the point -- with the advent of hypertime, it seems coie was retconned, though strictly speaking from what i've read hypertime (and the linear men) have RECORD of the crisis and it's uncertain whether hypertime would allow them to travel to the time BEFORE crisis, when the universe was a multiverse though it is said all those 'infinite earths' DO exist in hypertime.

whew. hypertime is friggin' da bomb!!

😄

Originally posted by Mr Master
In Marvel?

Yes.

This is how Marvel, the company that creates these characters measures INFINITY

An INFINITE Multi-verse with INFINITE Universes.

The Omni-verse, this is how it looks from the OUTSIDE:

When Warlock first exited the Multi-verse, he entered a place called the Cosmic Vortex.

In it, an INFINITE number of MULTI-VERSES are spiralling upward into an INFINITY beyond INFINITY

And this is how it looks from the INSIDE:

I wont debate the On Panel evidence, whoever can't digest this, write a letter to Marvel and let your voice be heard. 🙂

I agree that there can be an unlimited number of Multiverses and universes but none of them can be infinite.

Once again though it matters not because infinite can not be greater than another infinite.

So whether it is one with many universes and Multiverses or just one big one they can not be greater than the other.

i'm not necessarily saying one is grander than the other. everytime a new reality comes into being it is added to the hypertime line WITHIN the single dcu. everytime a new reality is added to the mu, a new UNIVERSE is born and added to the MULTIVERSE.

meh, least that's how i see and understand it. 🙂

Does nobody realize the Wildstorm and DCU exist in the same multiverse? 😕

Originally posted by Validus
Does nobody realize the Wildstorm and DCU exist in the same multiverse? 😕

✅

as do all the vertigo lines. marvel's imprints however are NOT part of the standard marvel multiverse -- there is not (i do not believe . . .) any way to reach the ultimate universe, for example. based on that, you MAY be able to make a case that the dcu is actually (again by virtue of the enormity of hypertime) the larger of the 2.

ps-nice to see you contribute for a change, you cute little lurker, you. 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
✅

as do all the vertigo lines. marvel's imprints however are NOT part of the standard marvel multiverse -- there is not (i do not believe . . .) any way to reach the ultimate universe, for example. based on that, you MAY be able to make a case that the dcu is actually (again by virtue of the enormity of hypertime) the larger of the 2.

ps-nice to see you contribute for a change, you cute little lurker, you. 😄

However due to it's close ties, its easy to see why some can make those assumptions.

Originally posted by Validus
Does nobody realize the Wildstorm and DCU exist in the same multiverse? 😕

Originally posted by Juntai
I'm not so sure Vertigo does, at least many of its titles seem to have no continuity at all. Just a collection of great stories more or less. Around the time of the Infinite Crisis there was an article on Newsarama with the Editors of DC, and they said Vertigo is not canon.

However due to it's close ties, its easy to see why some can make those assumptions.

from my (imperfect) understanding of hypertime, i'm pretty sure the vertigo worlds ARE theoretically reachable through hypertime. i know you're aware of certain vertigo/dcu xovers. ie: books where the endless (vertigo imprint) have appeared in "dcu proper" books. near as i can tell, hypertime is supposed to tie in the entire dcu.

if anyone can find an instance of something that is supposed to be outside of hypertime, i will of course gladly concede the point. 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
You underestimate me....there's the idea that even post Crisis, we've seen many universes, from the anti-matter universe, to the one of the Crime Syndicate, to the one that Trigon lorded over...on and on.

I'm not underestimating you friend, I just requested proof.

Originally posted by Juntai
Then there's this:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9969/thespectrev40713hz6.jpg

With every thought from every being, another reality is manifested across the infinite.

With every thought from every being, another World is created (as in PLANET) I'll take that as an honest mistake.

This could be Worlds in other dimensions, not necessarily Universes.

Shuma Gorath was able to bring Earth into his dimension, but he's surely not Universal let alone in control of a Universe.

I need something more concrete, like my scans.

And the word Infinite is NOT mentioned once in that scan, so I'll take that as another honest mistake.

Originally posted by Juntai
COIE is an old tale, don't put all your stock in it.

No offense Jun, but I'm not going to put much stock into scans that don't say Universes, Multi-verses or Infinite/Infinity.

Originally posted by leonidas
they DO exist -- within hypertime. even the PRE-crisis days exist -- within hypertime.

Hypertime in DC Comics ACCORDING to DC Execs...

Hypertime has been infrequently utilized in DC titles subsequent to its introduction in The Kingdom, perhaps as a result of its chief architects and proponents, writers Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, working elsewhere in the comics industry (notably for Marvel Comics) .

While the concept was used in a multi-part story involving the Modern Age Superboy, many writers (such as "Teen Titans" writer Jay Faeber) found that their attempts to use Hypertime were either outright rejected or their stories severely altered to allow no attempt to further expand upon the concept.

In fact, promotional talks at the 2005 San Diego Comic-Con (July 2005), DC Executive Editor Dan Didio EFFECTIVELY disavowed the concept of hypertime,

Stating it would NO LONGER BE USED in Future DCU titles.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, here's a little bit on lt:

interesting to note a couple things:

he apparently IS multiversal (there are other scans i could find reiterating this, but i like this one 🙂 ), he is apparently ABOVE the brothers, AND he thinks of the hoodded one as an ally, once again drawing a comparison bewteen himself and the spectre.

Because some Marvel/DC crossover say's so?

You buggin.

Originally posted by leonidas
the ocean/lakes comparison wasn't perfect, perhaps, but within the ONE dcu, there was MULTIPLE univserses/realities all kept separate via hypertime. hypertime is WITHIN the grander dcu. essentially the dcu is layered with 'infinite universes' because hypertime grants access to ANY world that ever existed in dc. marvel has no parallel EXCEPT the multiverse.

I addressed this in your first quote.

No Hypertime in existence anymore, so all this is inconsequential.

Originally posted by leonidas
they seem remarkably similar.

Not in the least,

but proceed with your purpose. 😖hifty:

Originally posted by leonidas
whew. hypertime is friggin' da bomb!!

To bad it doesn't exist anymore.

Put the cork back in the bottle.