Sidious/Tyranus/Vader vs. Revan, Malak and Traya

Started by Advent8 pages

@ zephiel:

Based on what? More years of experience?

I'd say the more likely choice for what Escape was basing his statements on - which would be what we've seen demonstrated from each of the two combatants, and how much more is known on what Count Dooku has done (opponents, descriptions, etc.). Of the two, Malak and Dooku, Dooku shows more signs of superiority.

Experience, while still important, is hardly something to base a decision on, especially when dealing with powerful opponents, who are considered by some to be "on par". Escape is already aware of this by his arguing that Anakin > Tyranus in lightsaber combat. So, I doubt he was implying that experience is the end all, be all solution to determining the victor.

Until I see proof that “Count Superman” spent each waking day after his time as BM perfecting Makashi…I remain skeptical.

Skeptical of what exactly? Count Dooku's superiority? Really, Malak's skill with a blade has not been shown to be on par with that of Count Dooku's, from what we know. It's the "don't know" that puts a major hinder in the argument for Malak being on equal footing with Count Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat (or being able to overcome him rather). He's better than the Jedi of Old from his respective era, alright. How good are the Jedi of Old? I've yet to see any relevant quote to Kavar's dueling power, much less the majority of the Old Republic during Revan's time.

Just to note: the "Count Superman" moniker is pretty asinine. It's definitely not appropriate, relevant, or even implied. It's like me calling anointing Malak as "The Jawless Wonder", even though that is somewhat appropriate, it's nevertheless irrelevant and seemingly demeaning.

Much of those “years of experience” after his time as a Jedi could have been spent in politics and scheming, in which case those “80 years” does not automatically translate into “80 years of combat experience”.

Your point? I would have extreme doubts that Escape made his posts about Tyranus and Malak based on pure experience. Probably from deducing from what we know, as I've already relayed. Darth Malak's displays of dueling prowess have really nothing strong supporting them that I've seen.

Of course, if there's a quote, feat, or something that prove Kavar - or anyone for that matter - could match Tyranus, then I'd probably agree that Malak would rival Tyranus.

Malak, although younger spent the majority of his life in battle, and we know it.

I'd like to question the meaning behind this statement. What do you mean by "in battle"? If you mean in war, then you are incorrect on the majority part, unless by some twist of fate, Darth Malak is only thirteen years old (z0mg).

His actual war experience is only limited to around seven years at most. If you recall, the Jedi didn't get involved in the Mandalorian Wars until later, and after Revan and Malak defied the Council to join - it was only like, three years until the war's end.

As for his life prior to the Mandalorian Wars, where has it been stated that he's even left the Jedi Temple? As my KotOR knowledge is limited and I only vaguely remember my play through, I don't recall him said to have done anything that isn't inclusive of a normal Jedi Knight's duty (most likely a mission here or there, etc. or maybe not).

He was the one actually executing Revan’s plans with brutal precision on the battlefield. Not only in the Mandalorian wars, but also in the Sith/Jedi war, where he defeated the leader of the Jedi Guardians, the best duelist of the Jedi Order.

He also got his jaw lopped off by a Jedi in a lightsaber duel, and this was after he became a Sith Lord.

For that matter, by what basis do you go by when you say that Dooku actually defeating someone , say Sora Bulq, translates into him defeating the one of the best duelists of the KOTOR era?

Well, despite the fact that "one of the best of the era" is mainly an unknown factor your dealing with (as I have yet to see any comparisons drawn on Old Republic Jedi to anyone familiar in later eras in terms of lightsaber combat, nor any displays of real power against foe's that aren't unknown), it's what we've seen displayed, and what we know of Count Dooku's opponents.

What actually correlates into Malak being anywhere near Count Dooku's level of dueling, if I may ask? We know Count Dooku is an adept and exceptional duelist, consummate even. What of Malak? Where would his level of lightsaber skill be placed in comparison to those of the Prequel Trilogy era? If you dare say "Count Dooku", I'd like to know why. Simply because he's better than the Jedi Order of Old (and still got his jaw removed despite this) doesn't mean he's anywhere near the level of Count Dooku. The question proposed is: how good of duelists are the top dogs of the OR to the PT?

Now, in the singular sense, how strong is Kavar again (quotes, feats, anything)? Anywhere near the level of someone even like say, Sora Bulq?

As for your statements on Force skills, you'd have to take into consideration that, among other things, Malak was empowered by the Star Forge, was he not? Which from what I've gathered, is said to apparently boost your powers and/or give you new ones (or something to that effect).

Some of his powers may have a slightly less powerful feel to them without the amplification of the Star Forge aiding Malak. And while you could make the argument that he already had these powers (lightning, etc.), I've yet to see anything specify what it gives - so, we don't know. Therefore, making a conclusion that Malak is as able a Force user as we've seen demonstrated throughout KotOR wouldn't be quite correct.

Of course, if another source would state the opposite of my response regarding the Star Forge - I'd gladly concede. Things regarding KotOR are hardly my strong point of debating, as I despise the games hence I stray from many things that stem from it. I'm just basing an argument off of what I've gathered from different sources on KotOR.

As far as a lightsaber duel goes, I can see Count Dooku winning, albeit with resistance. And I'd say the same outcome would be applied to fit an all out duel.


Experience, while still important, is hardly something to base a decision on, especially when dealing with powerful opponents, who are considered by some to be "on par". Escape is already aware of this by his arguing that Anakin > Tyranus in lightsaber combat. So, I doubt he was implying that experience is the end all, be all solution to determining the victor.

Fair enough, and something that I agree on. However, I did not see Escape explicitly mention this, so I interpreted actually meaning that much.

Skeptical of what exactly? Count Dooku's superiority? Really, Malak's skill with a blade has not been shown to be on par with that of Count Dooku's, from what we know.

We "know" that he defeated the leader of the Guardians, the best duelist of the KOTOR Jedi order. He was able to surive through the Jedi Civil War sent by Revan, Malak and the assassins belonging to Nihilus and Sion. Malak's victory is noteworthy and equivalent (possibly greater than) Dooku's defeat of Bulq.

How good are the Jedi of Old? I've yet to see any relevant quote to Kavar's dueling power, much less the majority of the Old Republic during Revan's time.

We have enough to note that they lived in a time where there was far more lightsaber and force dueling. Personally,I think if he can survive through the times when dark Jedi were perhaps most prevalent and succeed in defeating and surviving ambushes by several of these dark Jedi, then Malak defeating him is definately significant and comparable to many of Dooku’s feats.

Just to note: the "Count Superman" moniker is pretty asinine. It's definitely not appropriate, relevant, or even implied. It's like me calling anointing Malak as "The Jawless Wonder", even though that is somewhat appropriate, it's nevertheless irrelevant and seemingly demeaning.

Perhaps you misunderstood the jovial nature of my post... I appreciate the Count, perhaps one of my favourite PT force users…

Your point? I would have extreme doubts that Escape made his posts about Tyranus and Malak based on pure experience. Probably from deducing from what we know, as I've already relayed. Darth Malak's displays of dueling prowess have really nothing strong supporting them that I've seen.

I would rank none of Dooku's "victories" as particulary impressive either. The greatest would be stalemating a weaker Windu. The battle was one sided; his droids came in and interfered. Other than that, what? Defeating Bulq? How much dark Jedi did Bulq fight? How often did he experience force lightning before Dooku?

Of course, if there's a quote, feat, or something that prove Kavar - or anyone for that matter - could match Tyranus, then I'd probably agree that Malak would rival Tyranus.

There are inferences . Kavar was the leader of the guardians, and well known to be the best duelist of the Order. The guardians were THE duelists and warriors of the Jedi Council. Not to mention that he survived against waves of dark Jedi, particularly against assassins sent by Nihilus and Sion.


I'd like to question the meaning behind this statement. What do you mean by "in battle"? If you mean in war, then you are incorrect on the majority part, unless by some twist of fate, Darth Malak is only thirteen years old (z0mg).

Lol. By in battle, I was referring more to a greater threat from the Mandalorian menace, therefore a greater pressure on the council to train the padawans for battle.


His actual war experience is only limited to around seven years at most. If you recall, the Jedi didn't get involved in the Mandalorian Wars until later, and after Revan and Malak defied the Council to join - it was only like, three years until the war's end.

I think it was around 5-7 for the Mandalorian wars and the Jedi war around 5 years. In either case that would leave Malak around 12 years during the war, and before that, a greater degree of training just by virtue of a war that the council may have to get involved in. It is likely he joined the war during a younger age (perhaps 19.) In either case, although his age is not equal to Dooku, he compensates with fighting more during his time.

As for his life prior to the Mandalorian Wars, where has it been stated that he's even left the Jedi Temple? As my KotOR knowledge is limited and I only vaguely remember my play through, I don't recall him said to have done anything that isn't inclusive of a normal Jedi Knight's duty (most likely a mission here or there, etc. or maybe not).

And this is in response to how I said "more battle?" In that case I was just stating that Malak was more thoroughly trained for battle (just like this arena! j/k) by the council.

He also got his jaw lopped off by a Jedi in a lightsaber duel, and this was after he became a Sith Lord.

But there is no narrative or anything describing this...whether it was in a ligthsaber duel. If so… it could be when he was weaker, and after losing his jaw he trained harder and became stronger. Losing it to Kavar is not really a possibility. If so, why bother with sending Revan alone to defeat Malak? Send superstar Kavar to save the day, if the council is so confident of Kavar’s superiority.

What actually correlates into Malak being anywhere near Count Dooku's level of dueling, if I may ask? We know Count Dooku is an adept and exceptional duelist, consummate even.

I haven't seen any feats to clearly ground this claim with respect to Malak. Defeating Sora Bulq (his real true victory, and probably most impressive one of that) was noteworthy, but it begs the question, how does that make him better than Malak who defeated the leader of the Guardians whom survived the Sith Onslaught? They were both called prodigies. Both orders were quite powerful.


Now, in the singular sense, how strong is Kavar again (quotes, feats, anything)? Anywhere near the level of someone even like say, Sora Bulq?

Read above.

As for your statements on Force skills, you'd have to take into consideration that, among other things, Malak was empowered by the Star Forge, was he not?

His demonstration of choking and blasting two Jedi was before he empowered himself with the Star Forge. It’s a fair conclusion that he sent the droids after Revan so that he could buy more time for the preparations.

Which from what I've gathered, is said to apparently boost your powers and/or give you new ones (or something to that effect).

Boost force powers...yes. Give new ones? Not so sure about that. The Star Forge was said to empower Malak's abilities, not give him new ones.

And while you could make the argument that he already had these powers (lightning, etc.), I've yet to see anything specify what it gives - so, we don't know. Therefore, making a conclusion that Malak is as able a Force user as we've seen demonstrated throughout KotOR wouldn't be quite correct.

See above. The use of choke and lightning simultaneously against multiple opponents was demonstrated before he becomes empowered. He similarly uses the technique to torture Bastila. He was believed to know Sith Sorcery (ex., drain etc., etc.,)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Y'know, in 900 years, you can accomplish plenty. Especially as most of Yoda's life is mystery

Well! he had hundred's of years to make him powerful enough to achieve plenty.

But still Yoda has not accomplished something on the scale of Revan and Sidious, who accomplished much more in much shorter time period.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like I said: LFL organizes canon into a hierarchy. being approved qualifies you to be published, but unless you're a movie, or a direct adaptation of the movie, you're in the C-canon variet
Did you know Lucas originally created Darth Bane? It was in the TPM novelization according to Terry Brooks

George Lucas is a busy man and so he cannot explain the entire Star Wars Saga himself. So, he gave other people the opportunity and green-light to expand the Star Wars Saga beyond his movies and thus "Expanded Universe" was born. Though! he himself has contributed in EU but not as much.

So, whatever work of EU that is approved by him, holds credibility.

KOTOR story has been mostly defined through games but its story holds credibility due to approval by GL. And "Ranking" becomes irrelevant here because if you are taking "ranking of canon material" in to account in comparisons then it becomes illogical to even compare the characters of KOTOR era with PT era.

And I know that Darth Bane was GL's idea.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yep, movies>All. however, just because it seems more flowery doesn't disqualify it

True! but still since greater canon material is available to define the fights of ROTS then its novelization, so I will use that greater canon material as a base for arguements and not the lesser canon material.

KOTOR's case is different and ranking becomes irrelevant in its case because we don't have its higher canon material to use it as a base for arguements so what is mentioned in its games, has to be considered.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The thing is: If the ROTS novelization lays down a fact, then it goes. And it's higher in canonity than any game

Note my above points.

The cases of KOTOR and Movies are different.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But, once again: We have examples of this not being the case- the people who defeated Grievous, Revan and Malak...
Are you familiar with the comic, Lucifer? A master swordsman effortlessly defeats a much stronger, faster opponent in swordplay, saying that being quicker and stronger is not enough to win a swordfight.
You need skill and Dooku's spent years compensating for not being a physically imposing man.

We actually don't know that Revan has been defeated by any Jedi or Sith yet. But Malak was defeated by Revan, and Revan was more powerful then Malak.

Grevious was defeated by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was more experienced in melee combat then Grevious and defeated him even in a Saber Duel as he easily chopped off two of his arms during early stages of the fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You need skill and Dooku's spent years compensating for not being a physically imposing man.

But Dooku's skills went in to dust when he faced Anakin for the second time. Malak has both skills and great strength, so he obviously holds greater advantage.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, no. Compensation means he needs to make up for his size and reach and Ataru allows him to do this. The acrobatic form

Fine! but "Force Speed" cannot be ignored because Yoda uses it to dodge attacks and strike opponents faster.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Putting him lower than Dooku is hardly that bad

Malak cannot be placed below Dooku because of obvious reasons that have been mentioned about him. Putting him on par with Dooku makes more sense to me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
who was stronger than he was. Dooku stopped fighting because his hands were chopped off

You can say that Anakin became better duelist then him and used a Saber Form that Dooku could not effectively counter. And this does not means that Anakin was more powerful.

But you are right that Anakin was physically stronger then Dooku.

The term "Powerful" = Knowledge of the Force + Saber Skills + Experience + Physical advantages.

Now! lets analyze this:

Anakin:

1) Physical advantages over Dooku: 2 at-least

- Young Age.
- More Strength.

2) Knowledge of the Force: Less then Dooku.

3) Saber Skills: Better then Dooku. Practised "Djem", which out-smarted Makashi.

4) Experience: Less then Dooku.

Now Anakin scores 2 points.

Dooku:

1) Physical advantages over Anakin: None

2) Knowledge of the Force: Much higher then Anakin.

3) Saber Skills: Good! but less then Anakin.

4) Experience: Much Greater then Anakin.

Now Dooku also scores 2 points.

So, Anakin is not more powerful then Dooku.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Huh? Flipping over someone isn't a power. Obi-wan didn't want anakin to go after him so Obi-wan didn't have to kill him....

Well! Anakin tried to use one of his new powers but got chopped off in the process.

Though! you are right that Obi-Wan did not wanted to kill him but he had no other choice left and hence he said in the start of the fight that "Then I should do! What I must."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A LOT....He defeated-but didn't kill- K'Kruhk, killed Master Tchooka Doon was sliced in half by Grievous, He killed Master B'Dard, Soon Baytes, Adi Gallia, PAblo Jill, Jmmar.....lots others [/B]

Hmm!

But he lost against those who were more powerful then the ones he had killed.

And Malak is definately much more powerful then these Jedi, you mentioned above.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ulic Qel-Droma got Mandalore the Indomitable to fight for him, Luke got Fenn Shysa and his Mandos to fight for him, Boba Fetts Mandos aided Han against the Yuuzhan Vong...

Good enough!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's EXACTLY what it said in the New Essential Chronology....which came out after KOTOR II

OK!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It resulted in a damaged, but still living Order

Order stopped functioning after "The Shadow War", until Sion and Nihilus were defeated.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Didn't work on the Exile or his companions

Exile survived because she was "wound in the force", which means that she could live even without force.

But Nihilus Drain technique would work on "Force Users", so that he could drain life from them by draining their "Force midichlorians" and Thon and Vima are pure "Force Users".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unless Thon can counter Force drain....and Thon's no push over

Their is no evidence that shows that Thon can counter Force Drain.

Revan can counter it to some extent as he fought against Malak, who knew this power and used it on him as well.

But Nihilus Force Drain is something that should be immensly feared.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed. Never said otherwise

So! it holds credibility as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
NO! LISTEN to me! By the end of KOTOR 1 there aren't any more than 100 Jedi left with the damaged Order. Many of them die on Katar and there are quite a few who survive and later reform to rebuild the shattered order accordign to the TnEC, there aren't even thousands of Jedi left to kill! KREIA SAYS THAT HERSELF IN KOTOR II

Fine!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For the last time: They did not. They and all their efforts killed less than the hundred Jedi still remaining. And Bane is easily to Sion's level at least

OK!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's because they got it from the Holocron creator, Leland Chee's Blog

So, that material becomes fully credible then. And Wikipedia remains as a reliable source.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Look: We know 100 Jedi remained as of the end of KOTOR 1....a lot die on Katarr...Atris, the Exile, Revan, Kreia, Vima, Thon, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta, Nomi, Jolee, Bastila, Vandar, Zhar, Vrook, Kavar, Zez, Lonna....those're some of them
the Four Council Members died to KReia. Atris was redeemed....many of the above likely survived...Sion and Nihilus could not have killed thousands.

Exile, Revan and Bastilla survived. Jolee's fate is unknown yet.

Others died though!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
which's why he was cornered on his boarded ship...[/QYOTE]
He was cornered but that does not means that he was defeated. And Malak reveals in KOTOR that he helped those Jedi trap Revan.

[QUOTE=7761711]Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not whenyou want to keep the Republic intact and Malak is blasting planets...


Malak is blamed for those actions and not Revan. Malak actually destroyed many Worlds after becoming "Dark Lord of the Sith", so its not Revan's fault.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But not power

Read my above analysis!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine is not a boy-hungry pedophile. he wants the stronger apprentice.

Yeah true! but he was friend of Anakin and he knew that Anakin had got the potential to become more powerful then any of his former apprentices.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Would Anakin have helped him if he were ripping Mace apart, cackling manically?

Anakin would not fight him in any case because he wanted his assistance in saving Padme.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
SW.com has announced there'll be books in the KOTOR time period and there's a KOTOR era comic. But not a KOTOR novelization

Still it is good news because it will make KOTOR more credible.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It isn't. It's not the same as a REAL force storm that tears apart space.

Fine! but it has been included in the list of Force Powers as a second form of Force Storm in EU.

Note that Force Storm of Sidious is also an EU canon and was never shown in the movies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One is a name for a powerful blast of lightning.

It is now called "Force Storm" because of it's much greater intensity and damage. If this was not approved by Lucas Arts then this power would never have been named as "Force Storm" in the Games and also in POD Novel.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One is a giant hyperspace wormhole that can devour fleets [/B]
Yeah! that is now one form of Force Storm.

A correction!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
which's why he was cornered on his boarded ship...

He was cornered but that does not means that he was defeated. And Malak reveals in KOTOR that he helped those Jedi trap Revan.

Originally posted by Deus Venèficus
Um... what? I'm a bit confused as to where this happened.

Forgot to put *almost*

And just to note, Kavat was NEVER stated to be the "best duelist" of the order. The only thing Mandalore said about him was he expected that he would lead the Jedi in the Mandolorian Wars and that he was the leader of the Guardians.

True, but he was still probably one of the elites of the order, being the leader of the jedi guardians (who were the more martial jedi, generally focusing on saber combat). He was possibly the best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well! he had hundred's of years to make him powerful enough to achieve plenty.

But still Yoda has not accomplished something on the scale of Revan and Sidious, who accomplished much more in much shorter time period.


Indeed. What makes you so sure Yoda hasn't achieved as much? Unlike Revan and Palpatine, Yoda wants to keeo things peaceful and stable.


George Lucas is a busy man and so he cannot explain the entire Star Wars Saga himself. So, he gave other people the opportunity and green-light to expand the Star Wars Saga beyond his movies and thus "Expanded Universe" was born. Though! he himself has contributed in EU but not as much.

Lucas hardly cares about the EU whatsoever. It wasn't a matter of 'I can't explore everything.' it was 'Smells like MONEY!"

So, whatever work of EU that is approved by him, holds credibility.

he doesn't approve anything personally. The only things he does approve are things pertaining to specific movie items

KOTOR story has been mostly defined through games but its story holds credibility due to approval by GL. And "Ranking" becomes irrelevant here because if you are taking "ranking of canon material" in to account in comparisons then it becomes illogical to even compare the characters of KOTOR era with PT era.

Dude....GL has never even seen KOTOR. He did NOT personally approve it, his company and staff did

And I know that Darth Bane was GL's idea.

True! but still since greater canon material is available to define the fights of ROTS then its novelization, so I will use that greater canon material as a base for arguements and not the lesser canon material.


So the ROTS novelization fits in with it

KOTOR's case is different and ranking becomes irrelevant in its case because we don't have its higher canon material to use it as a base for arguements so what is mentioned in its games, has to be considered.

Note my above points.

The cases of KOTOR and Movies are different.

We actually don't know that Revan has been defeated by any Jedi or Sith yet. But Malak was defeated by Revan, and Revan was more powerful then Malak.


Indeed. However, it's not as if Revan took an easy victory

Grevious was defeated by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was more experienced in melee combat then Grevious and defeated him even in a Saber Duel as he easily chopped off two of his arms during early stages of the fight.

No, it's because Obi-wan is the best Soresu master to ever live


But Dooku's skills went in to dust when he faced Anakin for the second time. Malak has both skills and great strength, so he obviously holds greater advantage.

That's because Anakin was stronger in the force and a better duelist than Dooku. No more, no less.


Fine! but "Force Speed" cannot be ignored because Yoda uses it to dodge attacks and strike opponents faster.

Did you see me deny it?


Malak cannot be placed below Dooku because of obvious reasons that have been mentioned about him. Putting him on par with Dooku makes more sense to me.

advent's handled this many times


You can say that Anakin became better duelist then him and used a Saber Form that Dooku could not effectively counter. And this does not means that Anakin was more powerful.

Dooku can easily counter a more aggressive form such as Vaapad. For the last time: It was stated Anakin was one of, if not the most powerful Jedi alive and Palpatine himself calls him stronger.

But you are right that Anakin was physically stronger then Dooku.

And more powerful in the Force

The term "Powerful" = Knowledge of the Force + Saber Skills + Experience + Physical advantages.

Knowledge is held in check by raw power.

Now! lets analyze this:

[B]Anakin:

1) Physical advantages over Dooku: 2 at-least

- Young Age.
- More Strength.

2) Knowledge of the Force: Less then Dooku.

3) Saber Skills: Better then Dooku. Practised "Djem", which out-smarted Makashi.

4) Experience: Less then Dooku.

Now Anakin scores 2 points.

Dooku:

1) Physical advantages over Anakin: None

2) Knowledge of the Force: Much higher then Anakin.

3) Saber Skills: Good! but less then Anakin.

4) Experience: Much Greater then Anakin.

Now Dooku also scores 2 points.

So, Anakin is not more powerful then Dooku.


Just.....stop. Okay? It's confirmed explicitly in the EU and the movies that anakin is more powerful


Well! Anakin tried to use one of his new powers but got chopped off in the process.

I wasn't aware a flip is a power

Though! you are right that Obi-Wan did not wanted to kill him but he had no other choice left and hence he said in the start of the fight that "Then I should do! What I must."

Hmm!

But he lost against those who were more powerful then the ones he had killed.


Point being?

And Malak is definately much more powerful then these Jedi, you mentioned above. [/B]
when Malak can take on Thon, I'll believe it.


Just.....stop. Okay? It's confirmed explicitly in the EU and the movies that anakin is more powerful

In the force? Lightsabre combat perhaps, and in raw potential and power; but I can't remember him exceeding Dooku in the force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]Good enough!

OK!

Order stopped functioning after "The Shadow War", until Sion and Nihilus were defeated


It went into hiding and came out after. Fair enough.


Exile survived because she was "wound in the force", which means that she could live even without force.

But Nihilus Drain technique would work on "Force Users", so that he could drain life from them by draining their "Force midichlorians" and Thon and Vima are pure "Force Users".


and if someone could use force immunity or just block it? What then?


Their is no evidence that shows that Thon can counter Force Drain.

Revan can counter it to some extent as he fought against Malak, who knew this power and used it on him as well.

But Nihilus Force Drain is something that should be immensly feared.


But force immunity counters it by your own words...and thon survives a blast that destroys a planet, I'd gonna side with him on basis of reasonable doubt


So! it holds credibility as well.

Fine!

OK!

So, that material becomes fully credible then. And Wikipedia remains as a reliable source.


No, it isn't. Anyone can edit Wikipedia and it should not be used in arguments


Exile, Revan and Bastilla survived. Jolee's fate is unknown yet.

Others died though!


Sure. But many survived


Malak is blamed for those actions and not Revan. Malak actually destroyed many Worlds after becoming "Dark Lord of the Sith", so its not Revan's fault.

Last I checked, Telos was bombarded when Revan was DLOTS. Malak's actions reflect on Revan


Read my above analysis!

Read. Debunked


Yeah true! but he was friend of Anakin and he knew that Anakin had got the potential to become more powerful then any of his former apprentices.
Anakin would not fight him in any case because he wanted his assistance in saving Padme.

Palpatine wouldn't have gotten Anakin unless he WAS ALREADY MORE POWERFUL, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD! He SAYS RIGHT IN THE GODDAMN MOVIE ANAKIN IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TYRANUS!


Still it is good news because it will make KOTOR more credible.

Grasping at straws, much
[Quote[
Fine! but it has been included in the list of Force Powers as a second form of Force Storm in EU.[/Quote]
except it hasn't. Show me one place besides gameplay

Note that Force Storm of Sidious is also an EU canon and was never shown in the movies.

Your point?


It is now called "Force Storm" because of it's much greater intensity and damage. If this was not approved by Lucas Arts then this power would never have been named as "Force Storm" in the Games and also in POD Novel.

Oh, right, and 'Force Horror' is the name of an ability....sorry, gameplay= N canon

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
In the force? Lightsabre combat perhaps, and in raw potential and power; but I can't remember him exceeding Dooku in the force.

Mace wIndu: Anakin Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive...and he's getting stronger..

Palpatine: Soon I will have a new apprentice...one younger and more powerful!

Mace wIndu: Anakin Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive...and he's getting stronger..

As would be Count Dooku if he were still a jedi, arguably.

Palpatine: Soon I will have a new apprentice...one younger and more powerful!

How is this referring to the force only? It means overall.

Count being the strongest jedi alive and growing more powerful? Very doubtful!

Considering Dooku isn't stronger than the strongest Jedi...

You really think Palpatine would pick up an inferior apprentice?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed. What makes you so sure Yoda hasn't achieved as much? Unlike Revan and Palpatine, Yoda wants to keeo things peaceful and stable.

Achievements of Revan and Palpatine > then that of Yoda. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lucas hardly cares about the EU whatsoever. It wasn't a matter of 'I can't explore everything.' it was 'Smells like MONEY!"

Everyone cares about money and Star Wars is GL's idea and he profits from it. But he also allows other people to modify it and expand it. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
he doesn't approve anything personally. The only things he does approve are things pertaining to specific movie items

OK! so you think that whatever is being added in GL's Star Wars Saga, is actually without his knowledge?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dude....GL has never even seen KOTOR. He did NOT personally approve it, his company and staff did

He would at-least know its story though because it is up their in "www.starwars.com"!

And his Company and Staff did approved KOTOR and that does not gives you any hint about approval from BOSS! right? Or you are trying to say that GL is actually ignorant of what is happening to Star Wars?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So the ROTS novelization fits in with it

It is but is lesser canon. I base my arguements on the movies, which is greater canon. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed. However, it's not as if Revan took an easy victory

Here you said it yourself!

So it proves that Malak was indeed a very formidable opponent. And Revan had to struggle against him and Revan is more powerful then Anakin! right?

So! what makes you think that Anakin will not have to struggle against Malak?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it's because Obi-wan is the best Soresu master to ever live

How many Jedi have been known to practice Soresu? Very few actually!

You can say that Obi-Wan was more experienced and was not an idiot like Anakin was!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's because Anakin was stronger in the force and a better duelist than Dooku. No more, no less.

Now! Anakin had not reached his full potential in ROTS! right?

And Tyranus showed us some impressive "Force Powers"! right?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Did you see me deny it?

You failed to mention it repeatedly when discussing Yoda's fighting style.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
advent's handled this many times

Advent has her own views about things. You should mention yours.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku can easily counter a more aggressive form such as Vaapad. For the last time: It was stated Anakin was one of, if not the most powerful Jedi alive and Palpatine himself calls him stronger.

Palpatine called him stronger due to these reasons:

1) Anakin defeated Dooku in combat.
2) Anakin had more Force Potential then Dooku.

So, he used the term "powerful" in general sense to describe Anakin. How difficult is this to get in your head?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And more powerful in the Force

Wrong! Dooku has shown us more "Force Powers". Anakin had greater potential and thats it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Knowledge is held in check by raw power.

And pure "Raw Power" is more associated with "Physical Attributes" of a person.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just.....stop. Okay? It's confirmed explicitly in the EU and the movies that anakin is more powerful

Becomes more powerful actually but not in ROTS. So, you stop actually.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I wasn't aware a flip is a power

Anakin said that he will try his new powers before flipping. Not my fault.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Point being?

Point is that G-G lost against those Jedi who were more powerful then the ones he has killed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
when Malak can take on Thon, I'll believe it.

This is not Malak vs Thon scenario.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It went into hiding and came out after. Fair enough.

I did not understand this comment?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and if someone could use force immunity or just block it? What then?

Do you know that Thon knows "Force Immunity"?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But force immunity counters it by your own words...and thon survives a blast that destroys a planet, I'd gonna side with him on basis of reasonable doubt

Bane survived the most deadly thing ever known to any Jedi and Sith, which is "The Thought Bomb", so this means that Bane is the most powerful Sith in the entire Star Wars Saga! right?

Ever understood a word called "LUCK"?

You can't prove that Thon is more powerful then Malak and Nihilus unless you prove it so stop using his account of survival to describe his power. That had more to do with LUCK and then his actual power.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it isn't. Anyone can edit Wikipedia and it should not be used in arguments

And if someone adds a change that contradicts with facts then it gets edited back again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure. But many survived

You said before that all Jedi died on Katarr! right?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Last I checked, Telos was bombarded when Revan was DLOTS. Malak's actions reflect on Revan

A single case actually but people still blamed that event on Malak and not Revan. It was Malak who gave order to destroy "Telos".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Read. Debunked

No!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine wouldn't have gotten Anakin unless he WAS ALREADY MORE POWERFUL, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD! He SAYS RIGHT IN THE GODDAMN MOVIE ANAKIN IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TYRANUS!

I have mentioned above that why Palpatine called Anakin more powerful.

And one thing you forgot about Sidious is that he is a Sith, which means that "Lies" and "Treachery" are his ways. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Grasping at straws, much

Fine! but it has been included in the list of Force Powers as a second form of Force Storm in EU.

except it hasn't. Show me one place besides gameplay


Star Wars does not have a list of "Force Powers", which shows that new "Force Powers" can be invented and added in EU and Sidious's "Force Storm" was also invented and added in EU. Point Moot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Your point?

My point is that the "Force Storm" demonstrated by Sidious (Which is C-Canon! of-course) was invented and mentioned in EU. So it is as much credible as the "Force Storm (Lightning)" power. Point Moot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right, and 'Force Horror' is the name of an ability....sorry, gameplay= N canon [/B]

Game-play and "Force Powers" are two different things. And all "Force Powers" mentioned in KOTOR are now C-Canon. Point Moot.

Lightsnake! you will get no-where with this debate because you don't use your own "common-sense" and "logic" to describe things.

Here is a brief summary of what I have learned from Lightsnake:

A)- Always rely upon "Greater Canon". And yet Lightsnake uses "Lesser Canon" material in case of debate on SW-ROTS.

B)- Malak is a Pansy. He is an idiot as well. And yet he is a formidable match for Revan (who is without doubt one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in Star Wars Saga). But Anakin will be all over Malak because Anakin > everyone.

C)- Dooku > Malak (because Advent said do) .Where is your own knowledge and reasoning then?

D)- Anakin > Dooku because Sidious said so. And yet you forgot that Sidious is a Sith and "Lies" and "Treachery" are his ways. Even GL says this himself. And Dooku demonstrates more knowledge of the Force in ROTS as well.

E)- Anakin's Djem form is most deadly form and he can be all over on anybody using it. And yet it failed against Soresu.

F)- Thon is GODLY powerful because he survived a destruction of a planet. he can destroy anybody.

G)- Personal Bias on "Force Storm". And yet when describing "Force Storm" based powers, you forgot that both of them have been mentioned in EU and not in G-Canon movies, but you only believe in one form of "Force Storm" and others should also.

H)- Vima can defeat Nihilus and Sion.

I)- Yoda's main achievements are shrouded in mystery and only minor achievements have been mentioned in Star Wars Saga.

J)- George Lucas is ignorant and he does not knows that what new things are being added in his Star Wars Saga.

Is their anything left! Lightsnake?

My next advice: Stop this endless debate because you are contradicting yourself on various accounts and not using any Logic and Sense at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lightsnake! you will get no-where with this debate because you don't use your own "common-sense" and "logic" to describe things.

[B]Here is a brief summary of what I have learned from Lightsnake:

A)- Always rely upon "Greater Canon". And yet Lightsnake uses "Lesser Canon" material in case of debate on SW-ROTS.


Do you get off on hypocrisy? There's a full difference beteen that and using supplementary material. IE: It doesn't contradict.

B)- Malak is a Pansy. He is an idiot as well. And yet he is a formidable match for Revan (who is without doubt one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in Star Wars Saga). But Anakin will be all over Malak because Anakin > everyone.


See Advent's argument. Malak's below the PT elites. Sorry

C)- Dooku > Malak (because Advent said do) .Where is your own knowledge and reasoning then?

Why should I type up pages when a more eloquent argument is higher up on the page?

D)- Anakin > Dooku because Sidious said so. And yet you forgot that Sidious is a Sith and "Lies" and "Treachery" are his ways. Even GL says this himself. And Dooku demonstrates more knowledge of the Force in ROTS as well.

Where? He throws Obi-wan once? Why would Palpatine lie there? Why would he give up a perfecytly powerful apprentice for an inferior one?
And in case you forget, idiot, the EU confirmed anakin as more powerful

E)- Anakin's Djem form is most deadly form and he can be all over on anybody using it. And yet it failed against Soresu.

Where the **** did I say anything like that?


F)- Thon is GODLY powerful because he survived a destruction of a planet. he can destroy anybody.

Who said that? I just said he has to be formidable.
You're a grade A moron

G)- Personal Bias on "Force Storm". And yet when describing "Force Storm" based powers, you forgot that both of them have been mentioned in EU and not in G-Canon movies, but you only believe in one form of "Force Storm" and others should also.

Show me where this lightning Force Storm is mentioned in EU besides N-canon game stats

H)- Vima can defeat Nihilus and Sion.

Are you an idiot or something? I said she was one of the top Jedi of her age

I)- Yoda's main achievements are shrouded in mystery and only minor achievements have been mentioned in Star Wars Saga.

Considering Lucas has declared most of Yoda's life off limits, yeah. The most we know of now is Yoda defeating a Dark Jedi rebellion.

J)- George Lucas is ignorant and he does not knows that what new things are being added in his Star Wars Saga.

Are you just stupid? Lucas himself said he doesn't keep up with the EU in most cases. And the editors of LFL review the material. Are you familiar with delegations? Want me to get the word of an author to shut you up?
Lucas doesn't keep up with things. Noone goes to him unless it involves a major change for a movie character. LFL employees and editors take care of it

Is their anything left! Lightsnake?

You're a grade A fool

My next advice: Stop this endless debate because you are contradicting yourself on various accounts and not using any Logic and Sense at all. [/B][/QUOTE]

See Advent's argument. Malak's below the PT elites. Sorry

Maybe regular Malak, but SF powered Malak?