Originally posted by Pirates life fo
There are a few hints yes. I just rewatched the movie and was paying particular attention to the relationships. Everything Liz does in that movie is to save WIll. Does she fall for Jack? Sure she does. Does it mean she will end up with Jack? Not at all. Does it mean that she will end up with Will? Not at all. She may realize that her true love is the sea and she wants to become a Pirate and a man at this point would just get in the way of that dream.
I have to agree with Pirates life. Elizabeth and Jack are both pirates, but there is a major difference between them. According to his backstory, Jack only became a pirate because he was branded a pirate. He was a victim of circumstances and subsequently what little good man he had in him was burried.
Elizabeth is very different. She will become a pirate because that is her choice--and a true pirate is a very selfish being. If you doubt me, look at a pirate like Barbossa. There's no room in that sort of life style to think consciously of others. Ted and Terry have said that of all the characters in the series, Elizabeth is the greatest pirate of them all. Though both men would bring certain positive attributes to her life style, the chances are that they'd be more of a hiderance than a help--especially if they would attempt to dominate her indominable spirit.
That's very surprising they said Liz was the greatest pirate of them all. Are they referring to the fact that she can outwit Jack, the most legendary pirate ever? Where did you hear that?
To be honest, I think the best pirate in the entire thing is Norrington. We see him at first as a decent, clever, good person and then we see how he acts under absolute pressure and struggle. He'll betray anyone to get anything for himself. He's only motive in DMC is to better himself, which is a pretty piraty motive, imo.
Liz does have a heart and does have morals, in spite of what Ted and Terry say. She doesn't always keep her emotions in check, but she looks after people and is willing to risk her life to save people. I think with a little maturing, she could be a great adventurer, not a pirate.
The compass is more of a plot point than symbolic of something. I'm quite suspicious of using it to determine how one actually feels about a person, because there are a million and one reasons that the compass could have pointed at Jack...and it may have absolutely nothing to do with love.
To Willo--My Essay on Why James Norrington and Elizabeth Swann Make a Most Excellent Ship:
I just think they are wonderful, intriguing characters, and they would suit each other the best. They are both so frighteningly intelligent that you know that they would never run out of things to talk about. Literature, probably philosophy, theology, the sea...there are so many things they would probably be able to talk about, and just imagining those conversations makes me glow.
Both of them are accustomed to an easier life (I still find it difficult to believe that Elizabeth would be really, really, really happy living in a rat-infested, smelly ship with a bunch of men), though neither of them are necessarily happy with everything that society expects of them. (We see a bit of this reluctance in Norrington at the end of CotBP.)
They both have a good heart (though at times it may seem hidden, even from them!), they both have a fantastic wit, they fight to protect what they love, and the most shallow reason of all...they look really nice together. 😄
Out of all the characters, this pairing just makes me the happiest, and I'm so sad that they never really get to explore that side of their relationship. So many missed opportunities in DMC...
Originally posted by Surreal_44
[B]The compass is more of a plot point than symbolic of something. I'm quite suspicious of using it to determine how one actually feels about a person, because there are a million and one reasons that the compass could have pointed at Jack...and it may have absolutely nothing to do with love.]
and wat are those reasons?! im very curious..
and y cant it not show who someone loves...when u love someone you wnat them as ur own...therefore you wnat them and the compass shows what you wnat most so when you love a person you want them and the compass shows that...its pretty simple...
The compass proves nothing, which is why it shouldn't even be used as an argument. She could want Jack because Norrington made her think of Jack right before she looked at the compass.
Yes, I know she was thinking of Jack before that, but Norrington was the one who put the idea in her head that she maybe liked Jack more than just as a friend.
See? It may have nothing to do with what you actually want, but what you think you may want. It doesn't say it knows your innermost want, but what you want most in the world...at that one particular moment.
So it's not a reliable source for information.
I agree with Lovely and Kate...it's time to pitch that compass into the depths and forget it.
"I just think they are wonderful, intriguing characters, and they would suit each other the best. They are both so frighteningly intelligent that you know that they would never run out of things to talk about. Literature, probably philosophy, theology, the sea...there are so many things they would probably be able to talk about, and just imagining those conversations makes me glow.
Both of them are accustomed to an easier life (I still find it difficult to believe that Elizabeth would be really, really, really happy living in a rat-infested, smelly ship with a bunch of men), though neither of them are necessarily happy with everything that society expects of them. (We see a bit of this reluctance in Norrington at the end of CotBP.)
They both have a good heart (though at times it may seem hidden, even from them!), they both have a fantastic wit, they fight to protect what they love, and the most shallow reason of all...they look really nice together."---------Surreal
First, thanks for posting that for my benefit. I always was wondering.
Second, I can see your passion for the E/N thing just by how you write it. Well done there.
Third, you make really great arguements. You have to understand this is how most of us feel thinking about Liz and Jack.
I do have to say, I like Norrington. I feel he's developed into a fully three-dimensional character and it did strike me as odd that he didn't try to start anything with Liz since they were technically engaged for a time. I find it hard to believe he's completely over her. To be honest, I expected some competition between him and Jack for her affections on the ship, although that would have made them both look stupid and like asses.
Maybe the true N/E relationship will be learned in AWE, whatever it is. I have serious doubts it will be romantic, but the sympathy she feels towards him and the love that may or may not exist on his part should be resolved.
Did you talk to sailorleo like I told you to? She's in love with Norrie.
Out of all the characters, this pairing just makes me the happiest, and I'm so sad that they never really get to explore that side of their relationship. So many missed opportunities in DMC...
i actually, surprisingly agree that Norrington is a great chratcer and hsould have chance with Liz. I actusally think he did do a buit of flirting on the ship and was jealous because she was so into Jack but Norrinton jsut totally ruined his chances by making her focus on her feelings for Jack. Or maybe he did that so she would be happy and he loves her so much that he would so that for her and didnt want her to be with poopy Will. and Norrie did get quite angry cwhen they were having the big saword fight between the three of them and Jack had mentioned Will stole his fiancee or watever, and thats how the two of them starting fighting...so you could stilll see his feelings for her during that
Hmm, if Norrington truly is that deeply in love with Liz, AWE should be interesting. I think he's still a good guy deep down. He's just so in love with his job and identifies himself so strongly by it, betraying the others to get it back was as important to him as trying to save a loved one.
Doesn't it bother anyone else that all the men in the universe find Liz irresistable? Why can't any normal girl in a movie have an adventure and have one guy fall for her? It only creates stupid debates when more than one guy is after her. Will/Jack/Norrie/possibly Sao Feng. This sucks. Yeah, she's awesome, but come on! We could still have fun with pairings even if they weren't real.
You have to understand this is how most of us feel thinking about Liz and Jack.
Oh, I understand. What I also understand is that my ship won't work, and er...I have my doubts about J/E working, which is why I argue so strongly and passionately for W/E.
I don't think I would argue it that much, because I'm not a big shipping person (*remembers Harry Potter shipping chats with fear*), but a lot of the time Will is made out to be a bigotted, boring, stupid, weak man who likes to trample on Liz's rights, when he is in fact none of those things.
Well, he might be a bit bigotted against pirates, but eh...they're pirates. It's like saying it's wrong to not love home invaders.
Lol, Harry Potter shipping. Been there, done that, sparked some controversy. Nobody liked my HP ideas.
Will....sigh. The Jan Brady of the series. I don't find him bigotted, boring, or stupid. He may seem that way at times because he's next to Jack, and because in the first movie, he's out of his element. He's not used to being a pirate, but he manages to hold his own. It's a shame they had such a pretty boy as Orlando Bloom play him. Someone else might have created a completely different idea of him.
The reason I don't think Will and Liz are well matched doesn't have to do with Will being weak or stupid or trying to hold her down. He taught her to sword fight, which is pretty pro-woman's equality to me. I don't think they're well matched because of their views on pirates and their methods. Will hates pirates and you can tell it tears him up inside that he resorts to piracy to save Liz. He will do it if he has to, but he's not going to do it for the fun of it. He'd rather just go back to being a blacksmith.
Liz has always been fascinated by pirates and while she has a good heart and is a pretty noble person, she will resort to piracy at the drop of a hat, unlike Will. Will wouldn't have taken Beckett by gunpoint. We saw the difference in how they handle things by how they worked with Beckett. Will would have burned the rum on the island, I'm sure, but if Jack were a woman, he would never, ever have chained that woman to a mast, even to save others.
So I think that big a difference spells trouble for their upcoming marriage, and some differences couples just can't reconcile.
I don't think Norrington was trying to 'win' Elizabeth back. He loves her still, but he was trying, I think, to get a few digs in, to make her think, and probably, try to hurt her at least a little.
I believe Ted mentioned that Norrington was driven pretty close to the emotional edge about Elizabeth's betrayal of him...and not just him, but his men as well. He probably would have gotten over the betrayal of himself, but the fact that Elizabeth's actions indirectly led to the deaths of his men grated on him.
Then of course he lost his men in a hurricane, and that was pretty much the final shove.
He was three-dimensional in the first film, just no one really paid attention because they had Jack Sparrow and Will Turner to focus on. 😄 I loved Norrington the first moment he stepped onto the screen.