Originally posted by willofthewisp
Does the Mozart Effect apply to POTC movies? I could have the kid memorize the series before he/she's even born.Proud Willo Mom: Aw, say mommy. Mommy.
Proud Willo's husband: Say Daddy.
Willo's baby: Sea turtles.
💃 😂 💃
maybe it could apply... hmm although, do you really want him to grow up us dirty as Jack?
err, no offense, no matter how i look at it, Jack is still pretty dirty, although he's hot.... hmm
maybe Jack's hotness could be transfered by watching POTC when you're pregnant! 😱
Okay, going in a different direction here, but I'm mad. Maybe it's just the stupid idea to invite a terrorist-harboring dictator to an American university that's upsetting me, but I want to pick on the willabethers for just a bit. Willabethers, I defend you a lot and deep down don't mind W/E, really dont, but I want to tear down a huge arguement some of them make.
If Elizabeth chooses Jack, what about Will?
Keep in mind in a triangle, and there was one, there is always someone that is left out. "But Elizabeth only had feelings of lust." Well, lust is part of romantic feelings and romantic feelings define a triangle. So, I have to turn it around: what about Jack? While he might be over Liz by the end of the series, he does not seem happy with how his life is. He doesn't have anything of his own and is alone. No man is an island, not even loners. You'll find that even loners have a small number of close confidantes. So I refuse to buy into the arguement that Jack is easier to appease than Will would have been. Will would have been devastated and I would have felt for him. I really would have. But while some openly show their grief as Will would, others pick up dangerous habits (such as parading around with loose women with diseases), put their faith into the wrong things (such as the fact that Barbossa would never EVER try to take the Pearl again), and withdraw (such as hopping into a small boat with only a bottle of rum to keep you company). I'm not saying he's the way he is just because of Elizabeth. He is not defined by her and she is not defined by him. But I don't think he's in a self-satisfied place, and imo, he never was.
So what about Will? Will would have been upset, naturally. Will loved Elizabeth for a long time, although technically, James "had her first," so you can't argue that Will had her first. In fact, he somewhat stole her from James. In this kind of world, it didn't matter how Elizabeth felt about James because she had no real say in the matter. She had a good father that would not have forced her, but in the scene where her maid is tucking her in, she is considering marrying James, probably out of a sense of duty. Will isn't some fragile thing that is going to break and then go on a killing spree. The series has shown him to be a strong, brave, mature adult who can adapt to situations out of his comfort zone. That kind of man not only can start fresh doing whatever he wants, but can find a woman who will love him tremendously. And that may have been a better fate than being away from a wife and child for 10 whole years. Just my opinion.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Okay, going in a different direction here, but I'm mad. Maybe it's just the stupid idea to invite a terrorist-harboring dictator to an American university that's upsetting me, but I want to pick on the willabethers for just a bit. Willabethers, I defend you a lot and deep down don't mind W/E, really dont, but I want to tear down a huge arguement some of them make.If Elizabeth chooses Jack, what about Will?
Keep in mind in a triangle, and there was one, there is always someone that is left out. "But Elizabeth only had feelings of lust." Well, lust is part of romantic feelings and romantic feelings define a triangle. So, I have to turn it around: what about Jack? While he might be over Liz by the end of the series, he does not seem happy with how his life is. He doesn't have anything of his own and is alone. No man is an island, not even loners. You'll find that even loners have a small number of close confidantes. So I refuse to buy into the arguement that Jack is easier to appease than Will would have been. Will would have been devastated and I would have felt for him. I really would have. But while some openly show their grief as Will would, others pick up dangerous habits (such as parading around with loose women with diseases), put their faith into the wrong things (such as the fact that Barbossa would never EVER try to take the Pearl again), and withdraw (such as hopping into a small boat with only a bottle of rum to keep you company). I'm not saying he's the way he is just because of Elizabeth. He is not defined by her and she is not defined by him. But I don't think he's in a self-satisfied place, and imo, he never was.
So what about Will? Will would have been upset, naturally. Will loved Elizabeth for a long time, although technically, James "had her first," so you can't argue that Will had her first. In fact, he somewhat stole her from James. In this kind of world, it didn't matter how Elizabeth felt about James because she had no real say in the matter. She had a good father that would not have forced her, but in the scene where her maid is tucking her in, she is considering marrying James, probably out of a sense of duty. Will isn't some fragile thing that is going to break and then go on a killing spree. The series has shown him to be a strong, brave, mature adult who can adapt to situations out of his comfort zone. That kind of man not only can start fresh doing whatever he wants, but can find a woman who will love him tremendously. And that may have been a better fate than being away from a wife and child for 10 whole years. Just my opinion.
Ah Willo...I'm back...after a week's hiatus.....and you see....what you are saying about Will, that's what I have said for the past year on here. Everyone always says "what about Poor Will" if Elizabeth went with Jack....but what about Jack...and you are so right. Will stole Elizabeth from James in the first place, granted, James never really had a hold on Elizabeth's heart...but Jack does.
And Tee...your summary of J/E is so eloquent....it's exactly what this tragic romance was about.....and that's what I'm chalking it up as. A tragic romance........
and Willo, I agree...Will's is no weakling that is going to weep and moan and cry and go on a killing spree...he is strong and confident. And besides all that....he has a new destiny....Captain of the FD...like with his father.....he is no longer "alive"...his heart has been cut out....he has a duty to usher lost souls into the afterworld.....now, how can a mortal Elizabeth fit into this world...
Tee, I agree...the chemistry between Jack and Liz on the island in COTBP was 100 times hotter than the island scene at the end of AWE between Liz and Will...
I just always felt a deep connection between Liz and Jack whenever they were around each other....even just the few times we were able to see them in AWE...look how he is looking at her when he says "Elizabeth, we're not back"...and yes, the orginal script has Jack grabbing for her, but then Will pushes him aside and grabs her.....
and what about the Pirate Brethren....the exchanged looks between them...and when Will is stabbed and that beautiful Parachute scene "Hold On" he hollars at Elizabeth...and then after the battle and Liz looks over to Jack with a smile on her face then quickly hides it and then he does the same....and the eloquent goodbye.....when I see Jack leaning on that rail looking down at the deck, it just breaks my heart....when i see Liz standing by the rail looking over toward the FD, I pretend that she is contemplating....but thinking she has no chance with Jack she decides to stay committed to her marraige vows.....that whole entire scene just breaks my heart............then to see Jack walking to the Pearl with his arms around those strumpets...and then lo and behold his Pearl is GONE! Please! and Jack sails off into the horizon singing "Drink up me hearties yo-ho" with a bottle of rum, a stupid broken compass and a map to the FofY in a small dingy!
AND ANOTHER THING: someone mentioned this on the other forum...but the biggest slap in the face to Jack and Sparrabethers.....Will and Elizabeth were married on the Black Pearl...the Pearl, for heaven's sake....the Pearl was a special bond for Jack and Elizabeth......
see, I have such bitterness over this whole thing...I'm so sorry.......
Really and Truly I really wish I could find some happiness within AWE..but I find nothing but bitterness, sadness and disappointment....... 🙁
On a brighter note...I could stare at my siggy all day long...I just love Johnny....I finally saw "In the Nick of Time"....very young...filmed in 1995 before he met Vanessa....he doesn't say much, he's the main character but for some reason he doesn't have very many lines...Christopher Walken (Headless Horseman) is in it with him....he's 32 when the movie was made..but he looks all of 20 years old! Beautiful, simply beautiful....
I don't know if T&T are married, and if they are, if they've ever been separated from their wives for a long time, but there is a difference between having your characters go through trials/suffer and just plain torturing them. It's all right to kill them off if that deeply affects other characters or the plot. But is it okay to just keep torturing them for no reason? What are Will and Liz supposed to learn through their separation? That they love each other? They already know that. It's a huge rip-off of The Odyssey, but even in that, Odysseus and Penelope grew from their separation. They became stronger, smarter, and better people. Now, I'm not saying Will and Liz stay stagnant. Becoming parents, I'm sure, changes you considerably, but we don't know anything about what happened between the consummation of their marriage and when Will returns. What the hell?
And Jack, he grew. He grew, everyone. He started out hating the fact that he couldn't "take what he could and give nothing back." He hated that he was too nice for a pirate and in COTBP, and yet in DMC, he risked his life to save Liz, Will, and a whole crew of people and by the end of AWE, yes, he could openly love people and realized there were more important things than immortality.
But then after the people that meant the most to him left, he regressed back to what he thought the only way he could get companionship was: whores. And he promised to take them on the Pearl, for goodness sake. Now, not even Jack can have sex with two women for days and days on end, so I don't know what he planned on doing with them for the rest of the time. Surely he's not able to talk to them on the same level as he is with Liz if they can't even pronounce "egregious." And I was fine with him being over Liz and he seemed to be that way all through AWE...and then he watched her go. It's the same face he had when they broke apart after their kiss.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KB4T-ouM9sg
Okay, I'm trying to understand all this.
Clip 1: Elizabeth is thinking. We get the feeling she has made a habit of withdrawing and being alone. Poor kid. So Will makes an attempt to sort things out. I would normally say this was a sweet willabeth moment. She's upset and he's trying to help. "Once we rescue Jack everything will be fine." I don't understand this. No, it won't be fine. She HAS to wonder why Will has been treating her differently. She HAS to. It shouldn't come as a shock to her that if they rescue Jack Will will go back to being his old self. So why not open up now, after months of keeping this secret? Some part of her does not trust Will to stay with her, and I can understand. She's killed someone. But he knows they kissed and I'm sure she's picked up on that, so why not tell the truth after so long? He's stayed by her thinking her a floozy, so I think he would stay by her knowing she's a killer, although she meant well. Jack should have stayed out of this scene between them, but he found his way in.
Clip 2: This is as close as we get to some J/E depth. Jack thinks he's hallucinating. He doesn't seem to really know where he is until he sees Liz's face. This would be romantic except for the fact that he looks terrified of her...because he's pieced it together. He remembers what happened and when she says they came for him, he rebuffs her and calls her out in front of everyone. Good. This is healthy, normal, and expected. Yet when we next see them together, it will be like nothing happened. Zuh?
Clip 3: "You thought I loved him." Well duh. It's not so remote a possibility. Will's not stupid. What was he supposed to think? That you seduced Jack and then killed him? Another pointless arguement for the Willabeth team.
Clip 4: Poor Liz. She has gotten her comeuppance. Her father is dead. Maybe this is when Jack forgives her for what she did. He knows she is a good person deep down and sees the pain she feels when she loses someone. Maybe he feels she went through that kind of pain after killing him. I find it fitting he is the only one who doesn't run after her. He knows the others will reach her, so it's not a matter of life and death. But if anything remains constant throughout Jack and Liz's relationship, it's that they are straight with each other. He feels for her, but he has to tell her how it really is and understands her reaction. Now, how people who understand each other so well don't get together is beyond me.
Clip 5: The gun fight. This is comic relief and not a real J/E moment. It's an ensemble moment.
Clip 6: Ooh, the scene with Beckett. So much goes unsaid. But then Beckett asks about Elizabeth. Beckett's always been a sparrabether, just itching to have something to use against Jack. I'm sure he's hoping Jack will make some passionate speech about her and then hold her hostage or something, but that doesn't happen. But Jack's reaction is interesting. He's going to protect her against Beckett and seems to want to nip this in the bud as soon as he can. It's like, "you're not worthy of mentioning that name." Interesting he won't even barter with her.
Clip 7: Also not a sparrabeth moment, per se. But it does establish they trust each other again. Jack chooses her because she wants the same thing he wants and he can work with her and trust her. But indirectly, it is always Jack that sets Liz up for success and challenge and adventure.
Clip 8: Parlay, my favorite scene. Everything is synching up and it's interesting what someone said earlier about Liz sort of taking Jack's place as the trickster. She's onto the fact Will and Jack have planned something, and she knows exactly how to make it happen. Jack needs to be on the Dutchman to get to the heart, so she trades him. I find it strange that now she and Will are getting along fine, but whatever. This is a perfect example of how much stronger the trio is together than they are apart.
Clip 9: Will's death. Eep, so hard to watch. I do have a soft spot for Will and I did not like watching him die as Liz and Jack feel so helpless at first. As far as I'm concerned, Jack made Will stab the heart for Will and Liz both. Davy Jones is a bastard. Poor Liz again. She's just married Will. She's losing her husband and is being dragged, literally dragged, away from him. It's heartbreaking to watch, and thank goodness Jack didn't break down as much. Is he worried about Will, praying it worked? Of course. We see that look of relief and possibly love on his face when he sees Will as the captain of the FD, but for the moment, all he knows is that to live, he and Liz need to get off that ship at that moment.
Clip 10: And here we are at the end. In a way, I'm glad they didn't have a long, drawn out goodbye. It's not in either of their characters. But it's short-sighted to think that this is goodbye forever. Every time a member of the trio has walked out of the others' lives, they've all reunited later. I have no doubt she and Jack will cross paths several times. But look at him when she approaches. He doesn't want to look her in the eye almost. I wouldn't dare suggest he was going to cry, but he's struggling to seem like the cool guy here. He does not want her to go, but does not want a kiss. I think it's because he wouldn't be able to let her go if they had another moment like that. Liz doesn't seem to know how to leave it. I think a part of her wants to jump into his arms and go anywhere with him...but a bigger part of her wants to be with Will for the short amount of time she's entitled to be. Dammit. It's kind of like Dorothy and the Scarecrow's goodbye, "I'll miss you the most." Oh and PS, she's not going towards him to hug him, she's going to kiss him. Look at her body language and face. And then that look Jack gives her. I thought he was over her until that moment and then I saw that face...I think he's in love, ladies. Maybe not forever, but yes, he did fall in love with Elizabeth.
Well, Miz WilloftheWisp, said rightly. That Jack and Elisabeth be done with their pissant goodbye on the Pearl, not in this world or the next. Jack's pirate creed, take all you can--he's bonded now to both Will and Elisabeth, they are the family he didn't have and he would no more give them up, regardless of what he says, than one of Gore's goats. With Beckett, he had to cut some loose, like sacrificing a pawn or even your knights/rooks to draw out the queen and win at chess. He paints Will with a black brush to make him more appealing to Beckett--with Elisabeth, he realizes that Beckett wants her for personal gain and he will not bargin with that which someone else so desperately wants. Beckett saw Elisabeth as a way to cement his power in Port Royal--look I married the governor's daughter. ALL MY OPINION--NOT NAYSAYING SQUAT. Thank you.
Good points on most Miz Willo'theWisp. Jack did grow, or perhaps just revealed himself. I don't suppose anyone had ever stood for him as did Elisabeth and Will at the fort when he was sure he would die, couldn't have believed otherwise but hanged by the neck until dead--imagining himself hung in the harbor like the other poor bastards. Not having meant it to end like that. Then, the boy pulls off another hat trick--comes up free and clear.
Didn't you or MizLovethemtigers say something about Jack sailing off, not to the fountain, but rather to Elisabeth for aid and succor to use his alliance with her to regain the Pearl? Made sense to me whomever brought that one up. He had his bargining chips with the chart. I surely expect him to shoot Barbossa again. That boy don't learn, does he?
And in addition, happy soon to be full moon--boy the energy is ginning hot and hotter innit? I'm pretty amazed at it all.
willo, thank you for your eloquant and well-thought description of each scene that there is a slight "j/e" moment in AWE....
and again, the way you describe it brings it back to the tragic romance....perhaps, underneath it all....jack and elizabeth do love each other.....but it's a love that can never be...but they understand each other...they feel each other.....they can read each other's thoughts...they are very much alike....
I love how you describe that moment during the Pirate Brethren...yes, jack votes Elizabeth Pirate King...because he knows that if she is King she will vote to fight...and that will give him the opportunity to get aboard the dutchman and stab the heart.....
And you are so right about Parlay...it's a great scene....one of the view things I really enjoyed about AWE.....but you are so right...why is Elizabeth and Will back to understanding each other....when last they saw each other she had just learned that he had betrayed them all (except her) to Soa Feng for the Pearl...and then she leaves him and goes with Soa Feng to regain the Pearl for the crew.....what the???? That is such a strange part of the movie......the last time Will sees Liz she is leaving with Soa Feng...then the next time he sees her she is dressed as a Pirate Lord and is reunited with Jack and Barbossa...go figure! So Will goes with Liz, he watches her lead the Pirates into battle and then during the battle asks her to marry him and then they are married by Barbossa....while Jack is on board the Dutchman...fighting Davy Jones and trying to get away with the heart...
and the death and good bye scene.....I am so glad that the part in the novel where Elizabeth tells Jack "please" is not in the movie...because Johnny's acting in that part is so wonderful....his look of horror...then he looks at the heart...then back to Will then to Elizabeth then back to the heart and then...he helps Will stab the heart.....I think it would have lessened Jack's decision to help Will stab the heart if Elizabeth had pleaded with Jack.....
yes, the way Jack drags her away from Will and protects her and brings her to safety just breaks my heart....then that look when he gets back on the Pearl...he isn't sure what will happen....I love when he tells Gibbs "i've never been one much for tradition"....the way he looks at Elizabeth and smiles when Will re-emerges as the Captain of the FD...and the look Elizabeth gives toward Jack when Beckett is defeated...then quickly looks away and hides her smile lest someone see...and then a split second later her looks at her with that same sappy look on his face....
Goodbye..parting is such sweet sorrow. I love it Willo. Never thought of that before, but you are so right...it's like Dorothy when she is saying goodbye to her new friends and she tells the Scarecrow "i think i'll miss you the most"...(by the way, i always cry when she says that to him)....Jack taught Elizabeth how to live....she had it inside of her all along, but Jack was the one who opened her up to all the possibilities......as I said before, it really just rips my heart out when I see Jack leaning against that railing as she approaches....he can barely look at her....then he tries to be cool and give it one last funny "keep telling yourself that, darling"....and as he smiles and watches her walk away..just like at the end of DMC...he smiles and watches her walk away.....
And yes, Misstexigodiva...I've said that before. I don't think Jack could possibly be headed for Florida in search of the F of Y in a dingy...he needs help...and he needs a ship....but I highly doubt he would go straight after Barbossa.....Liz has a ship, she's Captain of the Empress...Jack and Liz will cross paths again....now, we can use our own imagination as to what happens next.....(if there is no POTC4)
Do you think she would be any help in actually getting the Pearl back to him? Considering that she would be technically pregnant, she probably wouldn't know until she hit about the 2-month mark (if she's like me, lol). And they could have that adventure. She doesn't have to stay in that one spot the rest of her life. She just has to be there for when Will comes back. And maybe the longer they spend with each other, the more they will settle into their friendship. Maybe Jack will fall in love with someone else in time and he and Liz can truly be like brother and sister, which is what they seem to be trying to be at the end of AWE. I think he can get over her, and I would rather he did so because I want to see him fall in love. I want to see him fight for a woman that will love him back, and then have to balance their love with their sense of adventure. And it would be great if Liz managed to sneak a way to see Will every once in a while. She's a rule breaker. She'd find a way. Maybe the longer the years go on, the more Jack and Elizabeth will be comfortable enough with each other to be a real pair of siblings with no lingering romantic feelings.
Subtle as a cannon are we, Miz KatelovesPirate? Desirous of new reading matter? I found GeekMama at fan fiction and she wrote a pile of little stories, all very interesting, some dead on. Just little locket stories, tiny couple hundred words maybe.
Miz LovesthemTigers, I watched PotC again tonite for what the one hundredth time and when Jack comes on for the first time, it was a thriller for me becos it was like the first time--not of seeing an old friend for the 100th time, but like seeing this very odd duck, this strange exotic man, and I didn't know about him or what he might do or say and I couldn't take my eyes off him. I think I fell in love again tonite--full moons and lunatics...what'd you say--is Jack a Cancerian, a water baby? I know Mr. Depp is two for the price of one, coming and going Gemini, but Jack, ummm? I'm babbling.
Like the idea Miz WilloftheWisp--she might certainly be convinced to take her vessel, knowing the wear and tear Jack can inflict on a ship. Or possibly there would be some code remediation, like you can't keep stealing someone's ship. She's capable of a lot, our Miz Lizzie.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Do you think she would be any help in actually getting the Pearl back to him? Considering that she would be technically pregnant, she probably wouldn't know until she hit about the 2-month mark (if she's like me, lol). And they could have that adventure. She doesn't have to stay in that one spot the rest of her life. She just has to be there for when Will comes back. And maybe the longer they spend with each other, the more they will settle into their friendship. Maybe Jack will fall in love with someone else in time and he and Liz can truly be like brother and sister, which is what they seem to be trying to be at the end of AWE. I think he can get over her, and I would rather he did so because I want to see him fall in love. I want to see him fight for a woman that will love him back, and then have to balance their love with their sense of adventure. And it would be great if Liz managed to sneak a way to see Will every once in a while. She's a rule breaker. She'd find a way. Maybe the longer the years go on, the more Jack and Elizabeth will be comfortable enough with each other to be a real pair of siblings with no lingering romantic feelings.
Me too Willo..I just want to see Jack fall in love, fight for that love and then finally receive love in return..I guess that's what we thought we were getting with JAkc and Liz but it's not meant to be....so yes, I'm all for Jack getting over Elziabeth and finding new love.....all I want is to see Johnny suck face with someone...I need some hot Johnny love scenes....anyone agree with me....!!???!!!
He's just so damn sexy I just want to see him look at a woman the way he looked at Elizabeth..and have that woman love him back....I want to see Jack push someone up against a wall and kiss her till she is breathless...like in the Notebook in the rain and then into the house....OMG....i'm killing myself here....
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Me too Willo..I just want to see Jack fall in love, fight for that love and then finally receive love in return..I guess that's what we thought we were getting with JAkc and Liz but it's not meant to be....so yes, I'm all for Jack getting over Elziabeth and finding new love.....all I want is to see Johnny suck face with someone...I need some hot Johnny love scenes....anyone agree with me....!!???!!!
oh lovethemtigers, i can always count on you to brighten up this forum with happy thoughts like this... 🙂