Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
True to an extent. However Luke was never a slave and despite having a rage that only a slave could feel, still go on being a selfless child. I think the respect factor, or lack there of (only in TPM and AOTC), from Ob1, affected him more than some may realize. He referred to him a "pathetic life-form" and constantly belittled him in AOTC. I know we only see a few of these on screen, but its a habit that I would assume continues during the periods that aren't on camera.
Urm...what ?
Luke only had lost his parents and had to grow up on some remote location being commanded around by his uncle who prevented him from doing almost anything Luke really wanted. And I'm quite sure that almost everybody is belittled in one or another way buy somebody - doesn't mean everybody turns into a murder who doesn't even stop when it comes to small children.
Yea...but the fact that still remains that he was better than his so called peers, but he wasn't allowed to venture to the ends of his own abilities, without being reprimanded for it. I don't recall anyone giving mace grief for inventing the deadliest lightsaber form ever, which utilizes the darkside. Anakin in a sense was being held back, and being that OB1 was his frontline supervisor, he focused his aggressions out on him, cause at that time, he didn't have the...platform...he needed to b!tch to/at the Council, as he did in ROTS. He was whiny at time, and that was annoying, but if you could write an "A" paper, but all your classmates were writing "C" papers, and you were told you had to conform to their skill level, would that make you mad? Assuming of course, acedeimia was your life's ambition...
He really was better than all his peers ? In terms of potential, yes but he was far away from having their self-control or control about his own powers. It's damn obvious in his duel with Obi-Wan. Both try to force push eachother and aren't capable of doing so - and Anakin's potential was far above that of Obi-Wan. Still he didn't manage to defeat him because Obi-Wan was calm and controlled.
If anything this shows that despite of his vast potential, Anakin wasn't able to utilize it. Does he deserve respect for being incompetent ?
Again, like I said up there, there were most likely more we didn't see, and it was often pulling his card in front of people and making him look dumb in front of them. And its a PG movie, he cant exactly cuss him out on camera, lol. "Anakin, you motherf*cker!"
He did taunt Anakin sometimes. But that was either some rather friendly mocking or Obi-Wan's way to teach lessons. I mean...it's not as if Obi-Wan walked up to Padme to tell her that Anikin did suck when it comes to remaining calm, that he was nervous about meeting her again and stuff like that. If you have older or younger siblings I'm rather sure you do worse things to them (or they to you) on a regular basis.
You're right in ROTS they were shown to be great friends. Another "what if" question...if you loved basketball and wanted nothing but to be in the NBA, and you were friends with Jordan...he's everything you would want to be in a player, now even if there's respect there, would you honestly say that you would harbor no jealousy towards him and his abilities? I just think some people are better teachers than others, and in this case, QGJ was better and would have treated Anakin better and give him more free range to explore his powers, due to actually believing he's "the one". OB1 called him "pathetic" as i stated before, and even Mace, according to GL, held resentment over Anakin's superior abilities and progress.
Obi-Wan and jealous ? Actually the only one being jealous is Anakin. Obi-Wan is sitting in the Council and is a Jedi Master - both things that Anakin wants. People listen to Obi-Wan's opinion, nobody cares about Anakin's opinion. Obi-Wan is threatened with respect, Anakin is threatened like a child because he does lack self-control. Anakin wants to hunt Grievous - the council sends Obi-Wan. With the exception of Padme all that Anakin wants is what Obi-Wan already has and while he has the potential he doesn't realize the right way to get where he wants to be.
And no, I wouldn't say thats a figure of speech...a figure of speech is like; man this bag weighs a ton, when clearly it's not a ton. But saying that someone murdered your father, rather than, he just became a prick and took a new moniker, is far beyond a "certain point of view" or figure of speech.
In Obi-Wan's opinion this is exactly what Vader did, so to say. Obi-Wan was under the impression that the man who was Luke's father didn't exist any longer. I mean...what would you do in the same situation ? Tell the 19-year-old-farm-boy who thinks his father was a hero of the Clone Wars, that his father did almost kill his mother, slaughtered children and is one of the two leading figures of a regime that terrorizes the entire Galaxy ?
Eating paste, lol...i laughed for like 5 minutes on that one...but anyway, you said he did it to avoid conflict, but how conflicted do you think Luke was when he learned the man he thought killed his dad, was actually his dad, and it was then his duty to kill him? Thats some hardship for your ass right there.
That was after Luke did go through some Jedi training so he should be able to control his emotions. And remember that Yoda said he didn't suggest Vader would tell Luke the truth. Now imagine what would have happened if Obi-Wan told Luke the truth immediatly. Luke would have wanted to become a Jedi (or force user) for the sole reason to revenge his mother - hadn't Obi-Wan told this "lie", the risk of losing Luke to the Dark Side would have been much higher...
Originally posted by Borbarad
Urm...what ?
Luke only had lost his parents and had to grow up on some remote location being commanded around by his uncle who prevented him from doing almost anything Luke really wanted. And I'm quite sure that almost everybody is belittled in one or another way buy somebody - doesn't mean everybody turns into a murder who doesn't even stop when it comes to small children.
Originally posted by Borbarad
He really was better than all his peers ? In terms of potential, yes but he was far away from having their self-control or control about his own powers. It's damn obvious in his duel with Obi-Wan. Both try to force push eachother and aren't capable of doing so - and Anakin's potential was far above that of Obi-Wan. Still he didn't manage to defeat him because Obi-Wan was calm and controlled.If anything this shows that despite of his vast potential, Anakin wasn't able to utilize it. Does he deserve respect for being incompetent ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
He did taunt Anakin sometimes. But that was either some rather friendly mocking or Obi-Wan's way to teach lessons. I mean...it's not as if Obi-Wan walked up to Padme to tell her that Anikin did suck when it comes to remaining calm, that he was nervous about meeting her again and stuff like that. If you have older or younger siblings I'm rather sure you do worse things to them (or they to you) on a regular basis.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Obi-Wan and jealous ? Actually the only one being jealous is Anakin. Obi-Wan is sitting in the Council and is a Jedi Master - both things that Anakin wants. People listen to Obi-Wan's opinion, nobody cares about Anakin's opinion. Obi-Wan is threatened with respect, Anakin is threatened like a child because he does lack self-control. Anakin wants to hunt Grievous - the council sends Obi-Wan. With the exception of Padme all that Anakin wants is what Obi-Wan already has and while he has the potential he doesn't realize the right way to get where he wants to be.
Originally posted by Borbarad
In Obi-Wan's opinion this is exactly what Vader did, so to say. Obi-Wan was under the impression that the man who was Luke's father didn't exist any longer. I mean...what would you do in the same situation ? Tell the 19-year-old-farm-boy who thinks his father was a hero of the Clone Wars, that his father did almost kill his mother, slaughtered children and is one of the two leading figures of a regime that terrorizes the entire Galaxy ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
That was [b]after Luke did go through some Jedi training so he should be able to control his emotions. And remember that Yoda said he didn't suggest Vader would tell Luke the truth. Now imagine what would have happened if Obi-Wan told Luke the truth immediatly. Luke would have wanted to become a Jedi (or force user) for the sole reason to revenge his mother - hadn't Obi-Wan told this "lie", the risk of losing Luke to the Dark Side would have been much higher... [/B]
have to disagree...why wait till he's at a very vulnerable stage, where he go down the dark path just as easy as the light side, and then let him learn and feel that the one last person he trusted, lied to him about his father and hear it coming from the epitome of evil and have his emotions going in 15 different directions? You can see he's obviously pissed, scared, maybe slightly relieved to know he does have a father alive, despite being a half of a robot. He could just as easily be like, ya know, OB1 lied to me, my father is asking me to join him...damn I cant believe he lied to me and wanted me to kill my dad....no.
And ok, the opposite question for you...what if Vader never told him and Luke kills him, then after the fact, they're like, Luke, you did us a favor, you killed your evil father, and now we can rebuild the Jedi ranks to suit our own wants and needs, thanks kid...you think that'd be cool? Or would propose they just kept on with the lie for the rest of their lives?
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Ok, Luke NEVER knew his parents, and speaking from experience, you cant miss something you never had. Also to quote 2pac, "my father died and I didn't cry, cause my anger wouldn't let me feel for a stranger." He knew of his parents and still had a steady and normal childhood. I don't think being raised by a strict uncle and aunt compares in anyway to being a slave as a child. And don't say Luke never got to do what he wanted, he just couldn't go to Toshi(spelling) Station to pick up some power converters, and join the academy. Anakin couldn't have freedom...big difference. I didn't say because he belittled, he killed kids. I said that that treatment coming from someone whose meant to be a mentor and friend doing it on every possible occasion, would build up an underlying resentment. Something that aided him in turning to the darkside.
You actually see Anakin's life as slave worse than it was. I mean...what did Watto force him to do. Repair stuff ? One of Anakin's favourite hobbies. In turn, Anakin was allowed to participate in Pod races. The child wasn't really that "poor".
And Obi-Wan didn't really belittle him. He gave him commands and demanded that Anakin remained controlled. Hell...Anakin did act against Council rules in front of a third party. What should Obi-Wan have done in this case ? The same thing in their regular discussions - if you apprentice or "pupil" makes a mistake, you have to point it out and preferably not two weaks after it happened.
Yes he was in fact better than his peers. In the AOTC commentary, GL states, "since Anakin can do things that the other Jedi cant...." during his jump from the speeder. Thats not word for word, but pretty damn close. He had control of himself, thats what allowed him to pwn Dooku. And how would that be damn obvious in his duel against OB1? Name one other knight, not master, who could contend with OB1...or Anakin for that fact. He killed Cin while choking some trick out. Yes, at the end he let his ego get the best of him, but.....he HAD to end up in the suit. And as Escape said, I would hardly call Anakin incompetent.
Did you even read the ROTS novel ? What allowed him to overcome Dooku was the exact opposite of remaining controlled - releasing his anger and fear. And I was talking about force powers and not about lightsaber skills regarding his duel with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was almost sorted out of the order because of his lack of potential. Anakin should have owned him bad in a force battle - but he failed because he lacked control. In that department he's completely incompetent. Hell...he managed to almost kill the woman he "loved" - how much more lack of control do you need to be displayed ?
In any professional to semi-professional setting, if you have to correct someone, or reprimand them, you do away from others as to not embarrass them or put them on the spot. I was section leader in the Army and then a manager of a RadioShack (wow that sucked.), anytime I had to get in someones ass, I made sure to do it away from the others so they don't have a bias opinion of them due to that incident. Everyone is due moments of lapse of judgement, its how you remedy the problem that dictates if that certain problem will persist. OB1, in his sub par teaching methods, did not do the right thing ever as far as that goes. Even with the lighsaber in front of the bar, you see a Jedi getting chewed out, and all of a sudden, he's a chump who doesn't deserve respect. Do you see what I'm saying? All these things are building blocks, building up to his turn.
He's a teacher and not some official who has to deal with his subordinates. Remember being in school ? If you did make an mistake, did your teacher lead you out of the room to point it out so that you wouldn't lose your face in front of others ? Come on. In some situations Obi-Wan didn't have other choices.
Yes Anakin wanted on the council, not because of OB1, but because thats the ultimate achievement for a Jedi, and when he was put on the council and not given the rank of master, it pissed him off, as I'm sure it would anyone. If you're that special case and are being made ultimately, an example of, how could you not take offense?
Imagine somebody offers you to be the CEO of Microsoft. You receive the payment, you receive all other boni - but you aren't allowed to officially represent Microsoft. Would you be disappointed ? For every other Jedi in Anakins age it would have been an honor to sit on the Council - Master or not. But not for Anakin. He simply didn't get exactly what he wanted and was pissed.
And again, Anakin did things that no one else in that room could do...he wtfpwned Dooku. Yoda didn't do it, nor did Mace, and you saw what happened to OB1...twice...at that time, he was the most powerful Jedi. Not having the highest force mastery, but the most powerful. Mace was jealous, and i don't see how OB1 couldn't have any type of resentment towards him. His master took a small boy's side over his, and he had to train someone better than him, against his will. I don't see Anakin being jealous at all. I also think if Anakin volunteered to go after GG or at least accompany OB1, rather than saying that Palps wanted him to go, then I believe he would have gone. Mace just didn't like Anakin, and didn't trust palps or want him in Jedi affairs.
Yoda managed to force Dooku to flee twice, once while levitating somebody around. Anakin defeated Dooku because of giving into the Dark Side. Yoda doing the same, according to Dooku's own thoughts would have tooled him and destroyed Sidious in the blink of an eye. So please don't compare apples to oranges. Mace might have been able to do the job but he never got the chance.
And it's possible that Anakin would have been allowed to go after GG in that situation. The point is that he again demanded something and his superiors didn't agree. If you run into the office of your boss and demand more money, I'll be surprised if you still have your job the next day.
Hero of the Clones Wars, huh? "No, my father didn't fight in the war, he was a pilot on a ..." So no, he didn't think he was a hero of the wars. In fact he knew nothing of him til OB1 told him. And when he asked how he died, OB1 even hesitates and looks down as if trying to think of a quick answer. And no, you don't have to go into details what he did, but after you explain the nature of the force and all that, then just say like, you're father was a good friend, but he was seduced by the darkside.
The point is that Obi-Wan had to lie in one or another way. Darth Vader wasn't exactly a nobody. He was known and so were his actions - at least in imperial space. Luke would have figured that out sooner or later, at least when joining the academy. So Obi-Wan had to lie about the identity of Luke's father anyway otherwise Luke would have most likely tried to search for his father and in this case he would have fallen to the Dark Side.
have to disagree...why wait till he's at a very vulnerable stage, where he go down the dark path just as easy as the light side, and then let him learn and feel that the one last person he trusted, lied to him about his father and hear it coming from the epitome of evil and have his emotions going in 15 different directions? You can see he's obviously pissed, scared, maybe slightly relieved to know he does have a father alive, despite being a half of a robot. He could just as easily be like, ya know, OB1 lied to me, my father is asking me to join him...damn I cant believe he lied to me and wanted me to kill my dad....no.
The point is that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted to keep Luke away from Vader very obviously in ESB. He shouldn't have learned the lesson before his training was completed. He did. Want to blame Obi-Wan and Yoda for this ? I think the effect would have been far worse had Luke come across this information before starting his Jedi training.
And ok, the opposite question for you...what if Vader never told him and Luke kills him, then after the fact, they're like, Luke, you did us a favor, you killed your evil father, and now we can rebuild the Jedi ranks to suit our own wants and needs, thanks kid...you think that'd be cool? Or would propose they just kept on with the lie for the rest of their lives?
If he would have killed Vader without optaining knowledge that Vader was his father, why should somebody have told him that he was ? And even then...do you really consider that Luke would have viewed that as an mistake if he had sucessfully get rid of the guy who did try to kill (more or less) being pretty well aware of the fact that he was fighting against his son ? Very unlikely...
I'll reply more in depth tomorrow, but one thing that jumped out at me was the Dooku fight. Did you even read the ROTS Novel? It said that Anakin's mind was clear as a bell, all he had to do to defeat Dooku, was decide. And he did. So yes he was using the darkside, but was in complete control of it, no different than when Mace uses Vaapad.
The rest, i'll get to tomorrow, night all.
In Obsession, which isn't too far from RotS, Anakin kicks a lot of ass.
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=047
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=048
Here, Anakin hurls a bunch of debris at Durge with the force, and the force is enough to momentarily take Durge out and trap him.
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=063
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=064
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=065
Here, Anakin puts Durge into an escape pod, and force pushes it into a sun!!!
From LoE:
To Dooku, this was nothing more than a game, Obi-Wan told himself. But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it. "Dooku!" he howled. With such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse. -LoE, CH41 (right at the end of the chapter).
And Anakin did this without even focusing his attack, all he did was shout out Dooku's name.