Originally posted by jasofisc
yeah I understand that you don't have the same understanding as i do but what does that have to deal with my comment you quoted. as for God not being a he I kind of agree with that in that I believe that the Holy Spirit is doesn't have a gender, Jesus was born a male, and God the father is also gender less containing male and female attributes.
Did you say "You don't believe in God.", or was you talking to someone else?
No sign or voice through other people will ever convince a “non believer” for one simple fact, people see and here what they want to hear. In order for God to prove that he is real would take some great feat to prove that he is real, more than walking on water or turning water into wine, how many magicians have you seen that can do these types of tricks.
Originally posted by jasofisc
You don't believe in God. That is what it wall amounts too. No argument no matter how well it is put together is going to be good enough. God is not accountable to us or you. God from what I can see has never accepted the challenge from a non-believer (any person that doesn't believe in him) to show himself. what i'm saying is that I don't have an answer for you. God demands faith. Faith would mean nothing if he just spoke directly to people all the time. People can argue forever about the existence of God, and whether or not he is real. But at the end of the day it's not well put together arguments that make me a christain it's the word of God that is the basis of my faith. I don't need anybody to justify that.
Bah, that argument annoys me so much -
First we have the: You don't believe in God, and you never would no matter how much evidence you had.
Which is completely tosh and poppycock. Since there is all the evidence in the world of people going around believing in things they feel they are justified in believing. Things they have evidence for their belief. It is like the lamest get out of jail card:
Person One: Where is the evidence for God?
Person Two: No evidence would be ever enough for you! It is your fault you don't believe in God, it is your own pig headiness!
Person One: *looks at feet* Gee... I
Person Two: *Runs away while person one isn't looking*
If an Atheist got evidence their was a God they would believe. Because you see Atheist doesn't mean "person who knows their is a God but chooses not to believe", no it is much more "a person who sees no evidence to justify such a belief." Really Atheism can be blamed far more on God, as it is he, with every Atheist I know, that I see justification for it. For someone who loves us so much he seems rather impotent in understanding how we think. If he can't understand an Atheists mind set, then he is no God.
Second - The whole proof destroys faith. In ancient Egypt, In ancient Greece they had things known as natural gods. Gods of suns and storms and fertility. Every time they saw these things doing what they were meant to this affirmed their faith. Ra and Seth and Persephone were real and making the world go round. Did the fact these people believe they were getting proof of their gods mean they didn't have faith? No. It is interesting so much of this whole "Faith, just faith" only really took off with the monotheistic religions with their aloof God's. By distancing themselves from the natural world phenomena and claiming uncharted territories that people would struggle to explain (soul, after life, beginnings etc) they protected themselves for a time from doubt. And "proof destroys faith" was a damn good way to stop people asking questions.
Despite, in terms of definition, it is possible to have faith in a friend, and it is possible that faith can be built upon a persons evidence that that friend is deserving of that faith.
it's the word of God that is the basis of my faith
Hmmm. I imagine you mean the Bible. Your copy printed on man made paper, written by men, in a language created by man, translated by men. Preached by men. Benefiting men only if they believe it.
It is not God's duty to prove Himself to us.Quite frankly, God is pissed. He's rather pissed, even. He's just holding His anger in check right now.
And let me guess - God has absolutely no responsibility for any of it. He is angry at mankind.
Out of interest - say you have a king, who is head of state and government. Now his nation goes belly up in a big way. Is he at all responsible for the things that happen in his nation (what with him being the big old pooh bah and all?)
But yes. God has no responsibility for any of the things that make him angry. Not being the grand old pooh bah and all (wait a minute...)
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And let me guess - God has absolutely no responsibility for any of it. He is angry at mankind.
Out of interest - say you have a king, who is head of state and government. Now his nation goes belly up in a big way. Is he at all responsible for the things that happen in his nation (what with him being the big old pooh bah and all?)
But yes. God has no responsibility for any of the things that make him angry. Not being the grand old pooh bah and all (wait a minute...)
Re: Re: Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by debbiejo
No, no it's not......and why would a god do so? . No proof is necessary only because it is already here.
Proof would, by rights, be necessary if one is trying to claim something, and wants people, a lot of people, to believe those claims up to the hilt.
Now this is all highly dependant upon the concept in question. I'm not talking about some universal energy that is a part of us all, I am operating under the assumption LU is talking about the Christian God. And if that is so there are claims it's followers make:
1st - It's the one that does it.
Basic claim - it exists, created the universe, created us and all that jazz and so on. Quite big claims you'd agree.
2nd - It cares about us and pretty much demands our faith, as without it we are doomed.
Basic claim - once again it exists and that we both need it, and are dependant on it for greater things. As such we have to believe it is the one that does it and we need it and we will get what is promised when we die.
So two claims that we are asked to accept based upon faith alone and that apparently are very significant to us in the future. Thus it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for proof to support such exceptional claims.
Not if he's gone and stepped back, giving all the power to the people.
Hmmm, well God hasn't done a good job of stepping back. From the beginning of humanity it appears he was interfering in human affairs (kicking us out of the garden, drowning the world, giving orders to leaders and the rest, sending Jesus, integrating faith in him as the prerequisite for the after life) and if going to do so again in the future - the rapture and all that jazz - or at least he did all this without leaving anything other then claims he did it.
So has he stepped back and given power to us? Or has he got his hands dirty in his creation and failed it improve it?
Re: Re: Re: Re: God should speak up for himself
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmm, well God hasn't done a good job of stepping back. From the beginning of humanity it appears he was interfering in human affairs (kicking us out of the garden, drowning the world, giving orders to leaders and the rest, sending Jesus, integrating faith in him as the prerequisite for the after life) and if going to do so again in the future - the rapture and all that jazz - or at least he did all this without leaving anything other then claims he did it.So has he stepped back and given power to us? Or has he got his hands dirty in his creation and failed it improve it?
Originally posted by FearMe
If he doesn't give us proof only the texts from an old book, then why should he expect us all to believe in him. We have no real proof do we. How can you have faith from a book that is millions of years old.I actually believe in him more or less but some things about it bother me.
Originally posted by jasofisc
You don't believe in God. That is what it wall amounts too. No argument no matter how well it is put together is going to be good enough. God is not accountable to us or you. God from what I can see has never accepted the challenge from a non-believer (any person that doesn't believe in him) to show himself. what i'm saying is that I don't have an answer for you. God demands faith. Faith would mean nothing if he just spoke directly to people all the time. People can argue forever about the existence of God, and whether or not he is real. But at the end of the day it's not well put together arguments that make me a christain it's the word of God that is the basis of my faith. I don't need anybody to justify that.
Not good enough for me. I will not give my life to an illusion. I refuse to take that gamble and waste my existance here on Earth that way.
I would still live my life the same either way. I do nothing to harm anybody. The most "evil" thing I've ever done was make fun of people every now and then. o0o0o0o how malicious.
If God does exist, and wants me to change my life around for him, then he needs to prove to me that he in fact, exists. If he will remain in fantasy, then I will not look for him. I already spent 18 years of my life as a Christian trying to understand and invite God into my life, with no clear answer not even once.
I am not going to waste another day beleiving if he can't even give me a damn sign of his existance.
Originally posted by Storm
People are sharing their interpretation or experiences with how God communicates, and you basically dismiss those views right at hand. That is not very open minded to me.
I didn't dismiss anything. I am waiting for God to show himself. If he only shows himself through my intentional application of him onto a situation, then it doesn't mean anything.
I am basically saying that so far I am not convinced. As much as people are telling me, I doubt any one person can convince me. If God cannot convince me of his existance, himself, then I will remain a non-beleiver.