God should speak up for himself

For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don' t believe, no proof is possible.

Originally posted by Storm
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don' t believe, no proof is possible.

You have said that before...

But I see it as a cop out...not on your part, but on "God's" part.

As much as I usually disagree with Xmarksthespot on many issues, he/she is right about one thing: Beleif needs to be justified if it is to be spread in the effort to convert those who do not beleive.

I can't just make myself beleive something Storm. I can say that "I beleive" 800 times If I want, that won't make it true. I am not convinced.

Keep in mind, Storm, that I was Christian for 18 years of my life. Atleast 9 of those years I beleived in God and in Christianity, VERY STRONGLY, and had very few, IF ANY, doubts in my Faith.

I look back now, and realize that I only beleived those things because: 1) I was taught to beleive it, 2) It was convienent for me to beleive it at the time.

There was never any proof for my beleif. I never had a 100% VALID reason for my Faith. So you mean to tell me that after NINE years of beleiving in God, with NO PROOF of his existance, I should start beleiving again just to make sure ?

HA! Nice try, this time I am asking for a valid reason to beleive, and if God cannot supply it, then he is either limitted or simply doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Storm
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don' t believe, no proof is possible.

Originally posted by FeceMan
You know, that's probably the most intelligent and accurate thing that has ever been said on these forums.

If so, then how do you expect a non-beleiver to truly beleive in Christ ?

Blind Faith does not equal true, sincere beleif.

Well the god of the Bible doesn't exist. That is quite easy to prove. An Universal energy force though exists, and that is quite easy to prove. Well, if you're open to it... 📖

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmm, well God hasn't done a good job of stepping back. From the beginning of humanity it appears he was interfering in human affairs (kicking us out of the garden, drowning the world, giving orders to leaders and the rest, sending Jesus, integrating faith in him as the prerequisite for the after life) and if going to do so again in the future - the rapture and all that jazz - or at least he did all this without leaving anything other then claims he did it.

So has he stepped back and given power to us? Or has he got his hands dirty in his creation and failed it improve it?

But that's what you guys do not get.

I am not asking you to convince me that a "superior" or "unifying" or "creation" force exists. I ALREADY beleive that.

I am asking someone to give me proof that CHRISTIAN-JUDEO-ISLAMIC God exists...ACTUALLY, I am asking that GOD HIMSELF to prove to me that he exists.

Surely, an all-powerful and all-capable God can do something so simple as to prove his mere EXISTANCE to me ! If he cannot, then he probably doesn't exist in the first place.

Is that TOO MUCH to ask of an Almighty God ? To just prove his existance ? Or am I asking too much? 🙄

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is that [b]TOO MUCH to ask of an Almighty God ? To just prove his existance ? Or am I asking too much? 🙄 [/B]

She says that there's a difference--they do not believe; they know.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Have you seen the movie Constantine? Though much of it is fictitious and inaccurate, when Constantine is talking to the half-angel Gabriel, it reminds me of your situation. He is frustrated because, when asking Gabriel what God wants, she mentions belief--and he says he does believe.

She says that there's a difference--they do not believe; they know.

Interesting.

But knowledge and beleif are two different things. I used to beleive, but now I don't even have enough trust in Christianity to go back to it.

I don't understand why anyone is defending God's decision to remain hidden, or to speak in unclear manners that could easily be confused for schizophrenia, a dream, or other non-reality scenarios.

Do you not think it would be so much more beneficial if God made himself CLEAR and KNOWN to all people without a doubt of his existance ?

Then and only then, if people STILL disobey him, even AFTER he showed himself to us, can we truly say that that person has sinned, denied God, and truly deserves whatever punishment God puts on them.

But to say that a person deserves to go to Hell for not following a BOOK that not only has no factual basis, but that the fictional character in it has never made an appearance that we could rely on ? How rediculous.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have said that before...

But I see it as a cop out...not on your part, but on "God's" part.

As much as I usually disagree with Xmarksthespot on many issues, he/she is right about one thing: Beleif needs to be justified if it is to be spread in the effort to convert those who do not beleive.

I can't just [b]make myself beleive something Storm. I can say that "I beleive" 800 times If I want, that won't make it true. I am not convinced.

Keep in mind, Storm, that I was Christian for 18 years of my life. Atleast 9 of those years I beleived in God and in Christianity, VERY STRONGLY, and had very few, IF ANY, doubts in my Faith.

I look back now, and realize that I only beleived those things because: 1) I was taught to beleive it, 2) It was convienent for me to beleive it at the time.

There was never any proof for my beleif. I never had a 100% VALID reason for my Faith. So you mean to tell me that after NINE years of beleiving in God, with NO PROOF of his existance, I should start beleiving again just to make sure ?

HA! Nice try, this time I am asking for a valid reason to beleive, and if God cannot supply it, then he is either limitted or simply doesn't exist. [/B]

Disassociated from doctrine, some experience God in all and everything; in the beauty of a flower, or hear it in the voice of a bird, ... And that is all they need.

Originally posted by Storm
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don' t believe, no proof is possible.

Originally posted by Storm
I' m aware of your situation.

Disassociated from doctrine, some experience God in all and everything; in the beauty of a flower, or hear it in the voice of a bird, ... And that is all they need.

Yes, I feel that at times too. But how do I know it's the Christian God ?

I beleive in a creational and unifying force. I do not beleive that the world is purely physical, by any means what-so-ever. It's hard for me to buy that emotions and sentimentality are meaningless by default of only being a result of the physical matter.

Storm, I am not asking a Christian to re-evaluate why they beleive what they beleive. I don't feel I have the right to ask that, since they can beleive whatever the want. However, coming onto these forums, the majority of the subject matter is "You must convert, or end up in Hell"

A strong claim to make, but if you want me to convert to your religion and change my life, then you better supply me with some valid reasoning as to why I should beleive you. (Not you as in literally you, but you as in general)

There is much reason to beleive in some kind of collective force. But I have found no valid means yet to beleive in the Abrahamic perception of God. And even less reason to beleive in Hell.

There are signs and miracles being performed in the name of God. Until you actually take time out of your day to actually attempt to witness one you'll never believe though...
I and heard of the lame walking, schitzophrenia cured, depression removed, etc. Miracles and healing are there, but you need to seek it seems nowadays. I think that it is a error of the church nowadays that the miracles are preserved for believers instead of being part of ministry. Jesus, Peter, and Paul, all healed people in their ministries so it would seem prudent for people of our day to do so as well, but they don't. I think this needs to change.

Originally posted by Nellinator
There are signs and miracles being performed in the name of God. Until you actually take time out of your day to actually attempt to witness one you'll never believe though...
I and heard of the lame walking, schitzophrenia cured, depression removed, etc. Miracles and healing are there, but you need to seek it seems nowadays. I think that it is a error of the church nowadays that the miracles are preserved for believers instead of being part of ministry. Jesus, Peter, and Paul, all healed people in their ministries so it would seem prudent for people of our day to do so as well, but they don't. I think this needs to change.

I have heard of these too. But I have also heard of other "miracles" occuring outside of the Christian realm.

I suspect there may be a reasonable explanation for all miracles, whether they be Christian or otherwise. I beleive we as human beings have more ability than we beleive we do. I beleive that people who are in touch with this world, with nature, with the universe, in a much deeper way than the superficial, can do amazing things.

I could be wrong, but who knows.

I just find it too conflicting that the same person who cures diseases, ends suffering, etc. also created Hell.

Originally posted by Nellinator
There are signs and miracles being performed in the name of God. Until you actually take time out of your day to actually attempt to witness one you'll never believe though...
I and heard of the lame walking, schitzophrenia cured, depression removed, etc. Miracles and healing are there, but you need to seek it seems nowadays. I think that it is a error of the church nowadays that the miracles are preserved for believers instead of being part of ministry. Jesus, Peter, and Paul, all healed people in their ministries so it would seem prudent for people of our day to do so as well, but they don't. I think this needs to change.

Originally posted by ThePittman
God has shown himself before by doing miracles to convince people that he was the one true God so what would be the difference now? He needed to show the disbelievers that he was God, they just didn’t “believe” in him. What makes the past more deserving of the signs of God then now?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, I feel that at times too. But how do I know it's the Christian God ?

I beleive in a creational and unifying force. I do not beleive that the world is purely physical, by any means what-so-ever. It's hard for me to buy that emotions and sentimentality are meaningless by default of only being a result of the physical matter.

Storm, I am not asking a Christian to re-evaluate why they beleive what they beleive. I don't feel I have the right to ask that, since they can beleive whatever the want. However, coming onto these forums, the majority of the subject matter is "You must convert, or end up in Hell"

A strong claim to make, but if you want me to convert to your religion and change my life, then you better supply me with some valid reasoning as to why I should beleive you. (Not you as in literally you, but you as in general)

There is much reason to beleive in some kind of collective force. But I have found no valid means yet to beleive in the Abrahamic perception of God. And even less reason to beleive in Hell.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?

(Assuming he exists)

There are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:

1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.

2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.

The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.

Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?

Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just [b]PROVE religious bashers like me WRONG ?

TODAY !

God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.

Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works ! [/B]

Originally posted by Storm
You approach the Bible literally?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i kinda understand where you are coming from. i really do. but, god places us here on earth with free will. we can believe what we want to. if you are a christian, atheist, muslim, whatever....you make this decision yourself. he is not gonna make you believe, you have to make that decision yourself.
also, god and\or jesus is not gonna rise to your "challenge." he is above petty BS like that.

They are allegorical and metaphorical.

Miracles are still taking place in their eyes.

Originally posted by Storm
They are allegorical and metaphorical.

Miracles are still taking place in their eyes.