The Flaws of Roman Catholicism

First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Ummm... technically most Christian denomination/sects have cross symbolism.

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Umm... technically all Christian faiths have a hierarchy in them.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

Ummm... Technically while Mary is a respected figure in Catholic doctrine she is not viewed as "higher then God" - since she is the mother of Jesus (not God) and God is her Creator and father...

I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

Ummm... Technically there are already threads on this subject, and I fear you only have a very basic knowledge of Catholic doctrine (and clearly Christian doctrine in general if you think Christianity in general does not have ritualistic aspects and its fair share of lies.)

This must be the JIA-bot who posts shorter-than-three-page-posts that are naught but blue (or, more recently, red) bolded rhetoric and, more likely than not, full of hooey.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... technically most Christian denomination/sects have cross symbolism.

No. Christians of the Gospel do not. We know better.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Umm... technically all Christian faiths have a hierarchy in them.

No. The preacher's purpose is to spread the word. He is as equal as the congregation

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... Technically while Mary is a respected figure in Catholic doctrine she is not viewed as "higher then God" - since she is the mother of Jesus (not God) and God is her Creator and father...

Explain to me why they say "Hail Mary, mother of God...."

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... Technically there are already threads on this subject, and I fear you only have a very basic knowledge of Catholic doctrine (and clearly Christian doctrine in general if you think Christianity in general does not have ritualistic aspects and its fair share of lies.)

Yes, I do have only basic knowledge of Catholicism, but on my dad's behalf, I can testify to how sidetracked it is. He used to be a Catholic but he converted to true Christianity (Gospel Brethren) after finding that there were so many things wrong.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
No. Christians of the Gospel do not. We know better.

Ummm... what Church do you belong to that doesn't have a cross on display, isn't led by priests or Cardinals (Protestants) or someone who stands up before you and preaches?

No. The preacher's purpose is to spread the word. He is as equal as the congregation

No he isn't. His has a religious rank that sets him apart from the congregation. Theoretically he is one of them, but he is educated in Church doctrine and meant to be a teach to the flock. Or a Shepard. Yes, a Shepard is equal to his sheep, isn't he?

Explain to me why they say "Hail Mary, mother of God...."

And? That proves what? That Mary is a significant symbol in their interpretation to faith. Having a Catholic mother I can't remember the rest of that hymn going "Hail Mary, mother of God, you are superior"

To my knowledge it goes "Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen. "

The Lord is with thee? Hmmm. Points out how blessed she was to birth Jesus - AH - pray for us sinners. As in "pray for us" - funny, most Christians sects and denominations I know of can say things like "and now let us pray for" or "please, pray for" - strange, sounds to me they are just asking her to pray for them, not that she is where the prayer stops, nor that she has power to act upon it.

Yes, I do have only basic knowledge of Catholicism, but on my dad's behalf, I can testify to how sidetracked it is. He used to be a Catholic but he converted to true Christianity (Gospel Brethren) after finding that there were so many things wrong.

Gospel Brethren? Obviously not Plymouth Brethren, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to use the computer.

Well, I belong to the Gospel Church. The same church Martin Luthor was a part of. Our preachers spread the good word - they serve the congregation, not the other way round.

If you dont believe me on my views of catholicism, pick up a bible and read it. I assure you, the truth is there.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... what Church do you belong to that doesn't have a cross on display, isn't led by priests or Cardinals (Protestants) or someone who stands up before you and preaches?

Hmmm...I don't think the cross itself is what Up in Flames was objecting to(correct me if I'm wrong though Mr. Flames). Rather -- the objection was over the *worship* of the cross, and its idolised representation within Catholicism(something that many Protestantism denominations are also guilty of).

Regarding your second assertion -- you are somewhat correct. Most churches(Christian) do have some form of leadership within them, however, there is a distinct difference between one leading and being worshiped -- particularly when one who *claims* to lead -- also *claims* to have *unquestionable* authority given to them by God(Like the Pope), *claims* to be a direct intermediary between the people and God(Like the Pope), and sits a top of a Gold encrusted throne -- with individuals bowing down before them(Like the Pope).

Any human making such *claims* -- or receiving such veneration, is either grossly misrepresenting, or grossly misinterpreting the Christian doctrine(and in many cases purposefully doing so -- to maintain some sort of power over those they're preaching to).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
No he isn't. His has a religious rank that sets him apart from the congregation. Theoretically he is one of them, but he is educated in Church doctrine and meant to be a teach to the flock. Or a Shepard. Yes, a Shepard is equal to his sheep, isn't he?

Ummm..after Christ's death and ressurection, there is no man(save Christ), who acts as a direct intermediary, between mankind and "The Father." We are all considered *sheep* under "The Son"(Christ) -- or for the sake of this argument, we are all considered *sheep* under the watch of one the good *Shepard*(Christ).

So to simplify -- in laman's terms -- all *priests*(including the Pope) are considered no more than *sheep*-- under the loving watch of The "Good Shepard"(Who is Christ).

Still -- priests do indeed hold a leadership role within Christ's church. Although not *Shepards* -- they are considered the "Rams" of the flock, assisting the *Shepard* in maintaining order, protecting, and keeping the flock on the trail the *Shepard*(Christ) is guiding them on.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And? That proves what? That Mary is a significant symbol in their interpretation to faith. Having a Catholic mother I can't remember the rest of that hymn going "Hail Mary, mother of God, you are superior"

To my knowledge it goes "Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen. "

And? What does this prove? Well for starters, Let me just say that Mary was/is a wonderful example of a Godly woman. There is no denying this. Possibly one of the most righteous humans in existence(be they male or female) That still does not take away from the fact -- that she was/is only human -- and that she was/is a sinner.

The problem arises in the prayer above, when Mary is referenced as being *Holy* within it. Many(like myself) argue that *Holy* in this particular context -- is representative of one who is worthy of worship and/or veneration. It would indeed seem that this is the case, particularly since Mary is asked to be an intermediary between the "Father" and mankind with the phrase "pray for us sinners."

So we are left with two direct contradictions to scripture in this prayer. The first one being the deifying of Mary -- by referring to her as *Holy*(which insinuates that she is without sin -- or some sort of God).
The second, the replacement of Jesus with Mary -- as the intermediary between the "Father" and mankind.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
The Lord is with thee? Hmmm. Points out how blessed she was to birth Jesus - AH - pray for us sinners. As in "pray for us" - funny, most Christians sects and denominations I know of can say things like "and now let us pray for" or "please, pray for" - strange, sounds to me they are just asking her to pray for them, not that she is where the prayer stops, nor that she has power to act upon it.

Again -- it's not the "please, pray for" that many object to. It's the direct reference to Mary being *Holy* -- along with the subtle insinuation that Mary is a *Holy* intermediary to God, and is without sin. Remember -- Mary was/is human herself, she was/is just as much of a sinner as the next one(despite being a very righteous woman).

As a whole -- I believe that Catholicism does have some merit to it, as it has assisted over many centuries - in spreading the scriptures across the world. Still - one cannot disregard the obvious paganistic practices within its doctrine. Those who are Catholic Christians, must be made aware of the direct contradictions to the scriptures these practices contain, and their true sinful nature.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
[B]First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

They are not worshipping the cross, however.

Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

"Apart from Jesus?" Somebody a little confused about the whole Trinity thing? Anyway, 'And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."'

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Bollocks. Unless you want to take all the books of Paul out of the Bible, on the grounds that he didn't have the authority to order communities around? Actually, that might be a good idea.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

Since you haven't seen fit to include an argument here, there's not much to respond too.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
-------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

1. The cross is the symbol on which Christ died upon. We worship Christ, who was the human form of God.
2. I agree, but it makes things a lot easier to have a human being who serves God to be able to listen.
3. The bishops and the Pope maintain order in God's church. And since when has everyone been equal in this world? The rich gain all the benefits in Christian countries.
4. Mary is the mother of Christ, whom, as I have stated before, is the human form of God.

...are infinite 😐

You know, I hate to say this, but Christians really ought to put aside the differences in their doctrines on KMC and, you know, stick together. Everyone else seems to.

Originally posted by FeceMan
You know, I hate to say this, but Christians really ought to put aside the differences in their doctrines on KMC and, you know, stick together. Everyone else seems to.

I've said similar before - I mean it is no wonder Christianity is in decline in some places when it can't even keep from self cannibalising:

Person 1: Catholics aren't Christian because they are different.
Person 2: You're wrong. Mormons, JW, Brethren, Orthodox are also unchristian because they too are different.
Person 3: Well, I'm Catholic, and part of the first and only true Christian faith. Everyone else strayed from the path and aren't real Christians.
Person 4: Well I believe Guru Sahiv is Jesus reincarnated and his reborn faith is the only true Christian faith. Everyone else is wrong, because Guru Sahiv who is Jesus says so.

And so on.

Hmmm...I don't think the cross itself is what Up in Flames was objecting to(correct me if I'm wrong though Mr. Flames). Rather -- the objection was over the *worship* of the cross, and its idolised representation within Catholicism(something that many Protestantism denominations are also guilty of).

Then once again I level the claim of ignorance of Catholic perceptions. Because when it comes to crosses they are no different then other Christian faiths. The cross is a symbol relevant to Jesus. To say that Catholics (and apparently many Protestants) worship it is, I fear, laughable. To be honest I would like you, or anybody, to present something claim from actual people that they worship or idolise the cross.

Because you see there is a different in believing the cross is a symbol, a grounding point, and believing it is divine. It is as bad as the old "Egyptians worshipped cult images."

Regarding your second assertion -- you are somewhat correct. Most churches(Christian) do have some form of leadership within them, however, there is a distinct difference between one leading and being worshiped -- particularly when one who *claims* to lead -- also *claims* to have *unquestionable* authority given to them by God(Like the Pope), *claims* to be a direct intermediary between the people and God(Like the Pope), and sits a top of a Gold encrusted throne -- with individuals bowing down before them(Like the Pope).

Regardless it is hypocritical to claim the Catholic Church is flawed because it has a hierarchy when all Christians faiths have one. They are all different usually, but a hierarchy is a hierarchy. And any study of religious history will show that clergy, of any Christian faith, are usually treated with deference and more respect. In theory they may be equal as humans, but socially they most certainly are not. Why so many people would automatically claim they would save a priest of a sinking ship.

And let us not forget other high figures - the Mormon Prophet for example, who is claimed to be in contact with God.

Any human making such *claims* -- or receiving such veneration, is either grossly misrepresenting, or grossly misinterpreting the Christian doctrine(and in many cases purposefully doing so -- to maintain some sort of power over those they're preaching to).

Then the majority of Christians denominations/sects are wrong and grossly misinterpreting the Bible. Because each of those faiths will say they are Biblically justified and their practices are based upon sound, correct, Biblical interpretation, or divine contact. Because you see... when religion is as vague and your God is aloof and doesn't feel like telling people who is right no one Christian has a monopoly on the truth. You could be right, or wrong. How is that for yah?

Ummm..after Christ's death and ressurection, there is no man(save Christ), who acts as a direct intermediary, between mankind and "The Father." We are all considered *sheep* under "The Son"(Christ) -- or for the sake of this argument, we are all considered *sheep* under the watch of one the good *Shepard*(Christ).

*Cough*Mormon Prophet*cough*

In your eyes there is no man who acts as an intermediary. Sadly your eyes aren't God. Nor the authority on the subject.

So to simplify -- in laman's terms -- all *priests*(including the Pope) are considered no more than *sheep*-- under the loving watch of The "Good Shepard"(Who is Christ).

Still -- priests do indeed hold a leadership role within Christ's church. Although not *Shepards* -- they are considered the "Rams" of the flock, assisting the *Shepard* in maintaining order, protecting, and keeping the flock on the trail the *Shepard*(Christ) is guiding them on.

And there are priests who believe they are mortal followers on Jesus path of shepard-hood. Don't misrepresent it as them believing they are Jesus - but they believe they are performing a similar task - educating them and trying to get them saved, just as Jesus did, and just as Jesus told his followers to keep doing.

And? What does this prove? Well for starters, Let me just say that Mary was/is a wonderful example of a Godly woman. There is no denying this. Possibly one of the most righteous humans in existence(be they male or female) That still does not take away from the fact -- that she was/is only human -- and that she was/is a sinner.

Ummm - where in the prayer does it claim she was a Godly women? It seems to be stating what is fact for a Christian - she mothered God. Wouldn't it be a lie to claim any different? I mean - that is what she did if you believe it.

The problem arises in the prayer above, when Mary is referenced as being *Holy* within it. Many(like myself) argue that *Holy* in this particular context -- is representative of one who is worthy of worship and/or veneration. It would indeed seem that this is the case, particularly since Mary is asked to be an intermediary between the "Father" and mankind with the phrase "pray for us sinners."

Silly. Once again we have a misconception - Catholics do not worship Mary as a God, or anything approaching a God. They do respect her however, and they recognise she was given one of the greatest, most blessed tasks from God. Thus they believe she is likely in Heaven. Thus they believe she is a conduit to God. Just like the Apostles were conduits to Jesus, through which his power was spread on Earth, and perhaps after.

I see no problem with her being seen as an intermediary - I mean, otherwise a priest should not be allowed to ask us to pray for others. I mean, how outrageous, who does he think he is. Clearly a heretic. You have to pray straight to God and only for yourself. Heaven forbid you think you, a mortal, can act as an intermediary for others by praying on their behalf!

So we are left with two direct contradictions to scripture in this prayer. The first one being the deifying of Mary -- by referring to her as *Holy*(which insinuates that she is without sin -- or some sort of God).
The second, the replacement of Jesus with Mary -- as the intermediary between the "Father" and mankind.

Deifying means making one a God. Mary was never deified. Given a Sainthood, that is being recognised as a Holy Soldier of Christ essentially. I never heard a Catholic claim Mary was without sin. Merely that she was honored by God by being Jesus mother. Which is vastly different to the claim she is somehow "a God herself in the eyes of Catholics"

Again -- it's not the "please, pray for" that many object to. It's the direct reference to Mary being *Holy* -- along with the subtle insinuation that Mary is a *Holy* intermediary to God, and is without sin. Remember -- Mary was/is human herself, she was/is just as much of a sinner as the next one(despite being a very righteous woman).

How is asking her to pray for us being Holy? I mean really - praying to her, that is the prayer stopping with her rather then being delivered up the chain to God would make her holy. That isn't happening. She is being asked to pray for us, just as a priest will ask his followers to "pray for our soldiers in Iraq", to "pray for the victims of the tsunami" - intermediary status does not equate divine status - except in the eyes of those who want to object to someones faith and are looking for justification.

As a whole -- I believe that Catholicism does have some merit to it, as it has assisted over many centuries - in spreading the scriptures across the world. Still - one cannot disregard the obvious paganistic practices within its doctrine. Those who are Catholic Christians, must be made aware of the direct contradictions to the scriptures these practices contain, and their true sinful nature.

Yet they don't think they are interpretting the scripture wrong - only others of other faiths do. Which is the same old same old. There are followers of any Christian group who will find a problem with all the Christian faiths that are not their own.

And chance are, if you are a Christian, any type of Christian, your particular brand of faith is likely going to have Pagan practices in it somewhere.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then once again I level the claim of ignorance of Catholic perceptions. Because when it comes to crosses they are no different then other Christian faiths. The cross is a symbol relevant to Jesus. To say that Catholics (and apparently many Protestants) worship it is, I fear, laughable. To be honest I would like you, or anybody, to present something claim from actual people that they worship or idolise the cross.

Ah - But you see, the representations of the cross are not the problem. Rather - it's the act of worship of the *object* itself(as well as the figurine representing Jesus on it), that is the issue. I believe this is what Mr. Flames was referring to(Correct me if I'm wrong though Mr. Flames).

Of course it is okay to have decorative representations of biblical figurines and symbols within the church - but one must never have the same type of reverence for these figurines or objects, as they do for God(Christ) himself.

This reverence and veneration given to inanimate objects - is a huge problem in Catholicism(and some other Christian denominations) - seeing as how many Catholics pray to wooden *idols* of Mary, Jesus, and his disciples(The Saints) regularly. And it goes directly against the type of worship that Christ taught(within the scriptures).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Because you see there is a different in believing the cross is a symbol, a grounding point, and believing it is divine. It is as bad as the old "Egyptians worshipped cult images."

Grossly incorrect. The cross itself is not *divine* - however the lamb(Jesus) and the selfless sacrifice that was performed(involving his Crucifixion) is. Christ didn't die for our sins - so that we could bow down to inanimate objects, he died for the salvation of makind.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Regardless it is hypocritical to claim the Catholic Church is flawed because it has a hierarchy when all Christians faiths have one. They are all different usually, but a hierarchy is a hierarchy. And any study of religious history will show that clergy, of any Christian faith, are usually treated with deference and more respect. In theory they may be equal as humans, but socially they most certainly are not. Why so many people would automatically claim they would save a priest of a sinking ship.

I now understand why so many individuals have problems relating to Christianity, it is quite obvious that many do not even want to adress unscriptural behaviours being practiced - and simply want to damage the credibility of the Christian they are arguing with, to exalt and/or justify their own personal biases(and agendas) against Christianity.

non Christian: It is hypocritical to say that the Catholic Church has many pagan practices - because all Christain Churches have Pagan practices.

Christian: It is not hypocritical to express something that goes directly against scripture - or to state things that go directly against scripture - regardless of one's denomination. It is only hypocritical if one denies such practices existing - and they themselves engage in such practices.

non Christian: You are a hypocrite - because you admitted that other Christian denominations have paganistic rituals. And you are now being judgemental -- doesn't the bible say not to judge?

And on..and on..

Anyway - as I've already stated. Being a leader within the church - does not make one a teacher, and does not make one a shephard. As Christ stated himself - there is only one teacher, and there is only one shephard, and we are all under his flock. Each person of the flock has a different role or position, however, they are still but a sheep among many(Be they great or small).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And let us not forget other high figures - the Mormon Prophet for example, who is claimed to be in contact with God.

*Eherm* claiming *erhem* to have contact with God -- does not make what one has said to be true. I have varied thoughts about Mormonism -and its doctrine, and will resign my opinion of it for now(since the topic of this thread is Catholicism).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then the majority of Christians denominations/sects are wrong and grossly misinterpreting the Bible. Because each of those faiths will say they are Biblically justified and their practices are based upon sound, correct, Biblical interpretation, or divine contact. Because you see... when religion is as vague and your God is aloof and doesn't feel like telling people who is right no one Christian has a monopoly on the truth. You could be right, or wrong. How is that for yah?

Umm..the *truth* always stays absolute - regardless of subjective individual interpretation. Because one denomination(or individual) might interpret the *truth* within the scriptures incorrectly -- it does not make them all incorrect. This is truly a very silly argument you have presented here sir.

I would like to see you go to Microbiologist and profess -

"Because spontaneous generation has been proven false - every scientific finding regarding evolution - or derived from scientists who believed in spontaneous generation is incorrect."

I'm sure they would find such a claim greatly laudable..He..he..He..(Just so you know..I'm being sarcastic).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
In your eyes there is no man who acts as an intermediary. Sadly your eyes aren't God. Nor the authority on the subject.

In John 14:6 Jesus states "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me."

There is no man save Christ(who is the Son and God himself) who acts as an intermediary between mankind and the Father. Any denomination(or individual) who claims otherwise - is directly contradicting the word(Jesus).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And there are priests who believe they are mortal followers on Jesus path of shepard-hood. Don't misrepresent it as them believing they are Jesus - but they believe they are performing a similar task - educating them and trying to get them saved, just as Jesus did, and just as Jesus told his followers to keep doing.

Again - as Christ informed his disciples before his crucifixion, there is only one shephard. Anyone else who claims to be a shephard within their church is either grossly misinformed or a liar - and is greatly misrepresenting the scriptures as Jesus taught them.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm - where in the prayer does it claim she was a Godly women? It seems to be stating what is fact for a Christian - she mothered God. Wouldn't it be a lie to claim any different? I mean - that is what she did if you believe it.

Silly. Once again we have a misconception - Catholics do not worship Mary as a God, or anything approaching a God. They do respect her however, and they recognise she was given one of the greatest, most blessed tasks from God. Thus they believe she is likely in Heaven. Thus they believe she is a conduit to God. Just like the Apostles were conduits to Jesus, through which his power was spread on Earth, and perhaps after.

I see no problem with her being seen as an intermediary - I mean, otherwise a priest should not be allowed to ask us to pray for others. I mean, how outrageous, who does he think he is. Clearly a heretic. You have to pray straight to God and only for yourself. Heaven forbid you think you, a mortal, can act as an intermediary for others by praying on their behalf!

He..He..He..I had to greatly edit much of this section due to frequent repetition of arguments and excessive verbiage(generally used by those who are trying to confuse - as an attempt to detract from an erroneous argument).

To simply put it to you once again - Mary is not a God, nor is she *Holy*(divine), she is a sinner - saved by grace like any other. Despite being a sinner - she was/is a *godly* woman(*godly* meaning devout to God and his principles).

Many claim that *Holy* used in the connotation of the "Hail Mary" prayer - is also used to describe her devotion, however, it is rather apparent that this is not the case - seeing as how as I stated before -Mary is insinuated as being an intermediary between man and God within the prayer(something that you have already acknowledged her as being).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And chance are, if you are a Christian, any type of Christian, your particular brand of faith is likely going to have Pagan practices in it somewhere.

This will be my final post regarding this argument, seeing as how your argument is extremly poor one - and the apples that thou has brought along with it, are extremely bitter.

Again - stating that the possiblity of paganism exists within various Christian denominations - does not make various Catholic practices(praying to saints, bowing down to idols, confessing to priests) any less paganistic.

Good day to you sir. God bless.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Yes, I do have only basic knowledge of Catholicism

Yes, a very basic knowledge. If your father converted based on those things you mentioned then your father left the church for the wrong reasons. I also like how you say your father left one version of christianity for one that is more true. Like any of them have all the answers.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
....This reverence and veneration given to inanimate objects - is a huge problem in Catholicism(and some other Christian denominations) - seeing as how many Catholics pray to wooden *idols* of Mary, Jesus, and his disciples(The Saints) regularly. And it goes directly against the type of worship that Christ taught(within the scriptures).

Gahhh - I know what he is talking about - but that doesn't make him right. Catholics are not worshipping idols by having crosses or even statues of Jesus. There has to be a mental component in idol worship that is absent in the case of the cross.

In fact the whole "idol worship" things is a left over phrase from eurocentric scholars - the idea that any culture that has a physical image of what they worship is instantly classified as idol worship The ancient Egyptians were accused of it, and still are - ignorantly.

Since I have never met a Catholic who believes their cross is a God, or that their Jesus statue is God, then I am dubious about people chucking around things like "they pray to a statue! They are worshipping an idol!"

Grossly incorrect. The cross itself is not *divine* - however the lamb(Jesus) and the selfless sacrifice that was performed(involving his Crucifixion) is. Christ didn't die for our sins - so that we could bow down to inanimate objects, he died for the salvation of makind.

And I see you have failed to actually read what I wrote - look back. Do I say it is divine? No. If you actually read it you will see that I am saying it is two different things: Believing it is a symbol of something and believing it is divine. Catholics believe the first (it is a symbol of something) not the second (it is divine) - it is absurd claiming they think it is divine.

Any clearer for you?

I now understand why so many individuals have problems relating to Christianity, it is quite obvious that many do not even want to adress unscriptural behaviours being practiced - and simply want to damage the credibility of the Christian they are arguing with, to exalt and/or justify their own personal biases(and agendas) against Christianity.....

And you have completely failed to counter what I said. There is natural, social stratification in every single Christian sect/and denomination. Every singe one respects its priests, treats them with deference. What all that garbage you went on with is meant to be about I don't know since you quote me talking about priests and their position in the church and start going on about paganism.

*Eherm* claiming *erhem* to have contact with God -- does not make what one has said to be true. I have varied thoughts about Mormonism -and its doctrine, and will resign my opinion of it for now(since the topic of this thread is Catholicism).

Exactly - claiming. You cut the Catholics (reducing the number of Christians in the world substantially - suddenly their are a lot less Christians then Muslims) because the Pope claims he is the chief priest on earth and personal go to guy for God then you also have to cut the Mormons, the Christians who believe they are led by people God talks to and so on (ooops, keep this up and soon you'll have less Christians then Hindus.)

Umm..the *truth* always stays absolute - regardless of subjective individual interpretation. Because one denomination(or individual) might interpret the *truth* within the scriptures incorrectly -- it does not make them all incorrect. This is truly a very silly argument you have presented here sir.

Actually I think your tone and claim are laughable. Not a single Christian denomination can claim to be correct and Biblically true because their doctrines are all based upon personal interpretations of an ancient text. You, nor anyone else really, can claim your particular Christian group is right and the others are wrong.

Fact - The Catholics (the worlds largest Christian denomination) believe they have interpreted the Bible correctly and and not breaking any rules.

Fact - People from other Christian denominations believe the Catholics are doing the wrong thing and thus aren't really Christians.

Tell me - who is right? Who is true? Or perhaps neither of them are because no one has the authority to declare one Christian sect/denomination right or wrong. Unless God himself pops up to clarify all Christian sects/denominations are all potentially right or they are all potentially wrong.

I would like to see you go to Microbiologist and profess -...

I must admit I fail to see the purpose behind such a rather pointless tangent, especially since it doesn't actually support your claim at all. Though it is rather Whobish... he never could resist a dig at the theory that walks all over his beliefs every day of the year.

In John 14:6 Jesus states "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me."...

And? Tell me - can a soul pray? Mary is dead... right? Is she allowed to pray for someone because they ask her to? Are the saints?

Because that is what it comes down to. Catholics don't believe those Saints have the power to answer their prayer - they believe however that these exceptional Christian figures can pray on their behalf. And maybe, just maybe God might listen to these people he used in life, since he sure as hell doesn't seem to do much listening to people these days.

Are you telling me Jesus went around and never listened when his apostles beseeched him? And you saying when a person spoke to his disciple, and that disciple then spoke to Jesus on behalf of that person the Disciples were... gasp!... doing something wrong? Because that is what a Catholic is doing. Translation:

Catholic: Oh Mary, the women who God blessed to carry Jesus, could you please pray for me, as I pray to God and Jesus? May they hear both your and my prayer?"

Yes.... terrible isn't it. Once again - do you knee cap priests for asking their congregation to pray on behalf of others? To act as intermediaries of others? Apparently not.

To simply put it to you once again - Mary is not a God

Holy Stating the Obvious Batman! usagi_yojimbo is essentially what you yourself have claimed but saying it in a different way so to make himself seem right! Very Whobish.

If you actually had read what I had written rather then crucifying other Christians in your mind because they don't kowtow the way you think they should you would see.... that I actually say the same thing. No where do I say Mary is divine or Godly. In fact the opposite, telling you you were wrong in saying that is the way she is seen. And Holy can be used to describe a person...

Many claim that *Holy* used in the connotation of the "Hail Mary" prayer - is also used to describe her devotion, however, it is rather apparent that this is not the case - seeing as how as I stated before -Mary is insinuated as being an intermediary between man and God within the prayer(something that you have already acknowledged her as being).

"Rather apparent" why Mr. Grey, if that isn't your interpretation coming into play. Why, I can think of place described as Holy - they aren't God. I can think of a book that is described as Holy - it isn't God. I can think of acts that are described as Holy... they aren't God. But to justify your argument you are claiming a person can't be Holy. Well, how is that for an erronious bit of incorrect defining. I suggest you look in a dictionary under the word Holy - I think you might find it can be used thus:

"Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person." Well, look at that!

"Holiness means the state of being holy, that is, set apart for the worship or service of God or gods. It is most usually ascribed to people, but can be and often is ascribed to objects, times, or places." Heavens above, was the your argument screaming in agony usagi_yojimbo?

Ah yes, I say she is viewed as an intermediary. A blessed figure who can pray on our behalf. Just like priests do.

This will be my final post regarding this argument, seeing as how your argument is extremly poor one - and the apples that thou has brought along with it, are extremely bitter.

Yes, run from the argument, no one will think less of you (since they need to think something of you to begin with to think less of you) - your argument have consisted exclusively of - misconceptions (Catholics worship idols) pigheadedness (I'll say the same thing as Imperial_Samura is saying but claim it is different), bad terminology (Holy can't be used to connotate devotion or something sacred! Be... bee... beeecause!) and the classic conclusion: "I have won the argument and now will talk no more."

Again - stating that the possiblity of paganism exists within various Christian denominations - does not make various Catholic practices(praying to saints, bowing down to idols, confessing to priests) any less paganistic.

Good day to you sir. God bless.

Sigh. You accuse Catholics of pagan practices (and by gods they are pagan) yet it doesn't matter that other Christian sects/denominations also utilise Pagan practices - including whatever group you belong to. This is what the children call hypocritical. Condemn all Christians based upon the paganistic aspects of their faith, or condemn none. You can't single out a single group for condemnation while ignoring paganistic things with other Christians.

30,000 children all over the world die each day, and here we go arguing about the details of a religion.....

I thnk Christianity distracts us from the true problems that exist in our world.

30,000 children die each day, and you spend your time arguing that God watches porn.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

However, you put Jesus higher, and he was just a man.