Originally posted by -Pr-To be fair, JIA (JesusIsAlive) was trolling and was doing little to encourage debate.
Pr, fairness likewise demands acknowledging, among other things, that:
-- JIA is not around to defend himself
-- JIA's level of trolling was scarcely more than what other members of this forum regularly engage in
-- posters like Stealth Moose do precious little to "encourage debate" among those who disagree with them
True fairness requires representing both sides; not just one.
Originally posted by -Pr-I was raised Roman Catholic, though I don't subscribe to... Well, pretty much any of it.
Just funny seeing a born-again Christian trying to talk about flaws in another aspect of Religion. Irony?
Ironic it may seem to you, but even noteworthy and staunch atheists like Penn Jilette recognize there is a profound difference among groups like Catholics and Protestants.
Moreover, they recognize, though the average person might not, that the language we use today takes the shape that it does as a result of constant maneuvering for political power, not because there is true common ideological glue holding these groups together.
Examine the following from the 17 minute mark until 22 minutes past and note Penn's discussion with Beck on the matter:
(speech is transcripted below the dotted line for readers who cannot view YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LnVa7zXgc#t=1310
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You get to the 70s ... and Roe v Wade comes in...
and some very, very intelligent people said
"You know, we can't fight this with "Catholics",
and "Protestants", and "Baptists", and "Lutherans" all disagreeing.
We need an umbrella."
And they kind of came up with the word "Christian".
The first president we have that calls himself a Christian ... is Jimmy Carter.
Before that ... you know ... John F. Kennedy is a "Catholic".
Others are "Baptist". Others are "Lutheran".
But they don't use the word "Christian"...
The Founding Fathers will use the word "deist" ...
(Adams of course used "Protestant" and used "Methodist" ... )
but they don't use that word ...
and then in order to fight that you get this big umbrella of "Christians"
Which is what gives you 70% of the country being "Christian" ... not breaking it up ...
Then we get to Mitt Romney and we are now adding in ... the Mormons ...
[who] are now referring to themselves as "Christians" and getting in there ...
Most atheists flip out at the direction this is going ...
I say "No, no this is great because we're next! ...
Yes! Let's just keep including ... !" ...
-- Penn Jilette
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Originally posted by BentleyDon't try to bite more than you can chew BWT ...
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"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?" -- Robert Browning
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Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If the Catholic Church is an imposter, then all religions that came from the Catholic Church are also imposters.“…Protestantism formed from the split with Roman Catholicism during the Reformation in the 16th century…”
http://www.patheos.com/Library/Protestantism.html
“…The Protestant Reformation of the early 16th century was an attempt to reform the Catholic Church…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism
The idea that Protestantism was not derived from Catholicism is an attempt to deceive people by re-writing history.
I will not dispute the assertion that MANY of the religions that came up after the Catholic Church are imposters.
However, I cannot agree with "all" for 2 simple facts:
1. The Catholic Church was not the first Christian Church.
2. The Christian Church is based on the idea of properly following God's written word (i.e. The Bible), which is possible to deliberately misinterpret.
Proof of that can be obtained by review of a few simple Internet passages.
Let's take the following, for instance:
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Matthew 16:13-20
King James Version (KJV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16%3A13-20&version=KJV
Fairly straightforward ...
"I build my church on the premise that I am Jesus the Christ"?
Catholics, however, take this passage as "Peter is the founder of the Church".
In fact, they supposedly regard him as the first pope.
Nevermind the fact that the Catholic Church, Rome Christenized, is the very institution that put Peter to death according to tradition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter#Death
People who know a lot more about the Biblical languages of the New Testament than I have written articles explaining why Peter was Pope #1 with far more rigorous analysis than I could hope to muster tonight, so:
http://carm.org/is-peter-the-rock
As for the main charge, coming from the Catholic Church means Catholic Church-lite, I'll simply point out for now (I realize this topic will probably need re-visiting a couple times) that, if the Catholic Church took liberties with passages like this consistently, perhaps to empower its current leadership, a sincere reformer could break away, interpret what is written in the Bible correctly, and establish what the Church was MEANT to be at its inception.
Voila.
Protestant Church coming from the Catholic Church WITHOUT being mired in the same corruptions ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pr, fairness likewise demands acknowledging, among other things, that:-- JIA is not around to defend himselfhimself
... Because his own behavior got himself banned.
This isn't stuff just now we're bringing up; people were challenging JIA since 2006. If you clicked on the beginning of one of his many Pro-Evangelist threads, you'd see people who have not been active in years raising the same complaints about his behavior. And in all that time, all he's done is fervently reassert the same stuff over the objections and observations of others and refuse to see anything but his own POV.
-- JIA's level of trolling was scarcely more than what other members of this forum regularly engage in
JIA spammed 20+ threads like he had missed his morning dose, and for a long long time used to link-spam to his own numerous threads and Youtube videos ad nauseam. You know, the same stuff spambots do? He earned a ban for that I think in November or December and was on warning when he Hulked out and got himself purged from the herd.
I don't know why you insist he is an okay guy and somehow the victim here, except that you two share a bias.
-- posters like Stealth Moose do precious little to "encourage debate" among those who [b]dis
agree with them[/b]
True fairness requires representing both sides; not just one.
Preaches fairness.
Constantly hedges, strawmans, misdirects, and refocuses on the individual instead of the argument.
Stealth Moose, BWR is not going to listen to you. The more you explain reality, the more he thinks he's got you. Don't waist your time on him; I don't.
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Preaches fairness.Constantly hedges, strawmans, misdirects, and refocuses on the individual instead of the argument.
Indeed, you refocused on me instead of addressing any of my commentary on Catholicism, misdirected by posting a taunting meme which would only make sense if you thought I was JIA myself, which I'm not, and strawman by pretending you're for free expression and against those who would seek to limit it while instead you've been trying to bully and intimidate those who dare support the original posters view.
I'm genuinely amazed here, though: you operate like this despite not only agreeing with me on many points but in having MADE some of these very points yourself.
Immediately coming to mind is how Catholicism adopts pagan practices and recreates them as its own. I gave the example of praying to Mary, a variation on praying to female deities common to other religions contemporary to that time.
But this is not something you disagree with. You yourself believe the Catholic Church adopted pagan practices as it own.
You said as much in response to a poster in one of JIA's "Halloween" threads, or at least included the Catholic history portion of it:
Originally posted by siriuswriterYou DO know that Halloween used to be a Christian holiday?
All Hallow's Eve? All Hallow's Day? Also known as All Saint's Day?
You celebrated and remembered those who had died before you and the miracle that they weren't going to hell because Jesus had saved them and everything?
OMG. It's a Christian site - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.
I can link them too!digi - Dr. Whunicorn? That's hilarious. 😄
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ever-reliable History.com even indicates it had purpose before Christ:[list]Straddling the line between fall and winter, plenty and paucity, life and death, Halloween is a time of celebration and superstition. It is thought to have originated with the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain, when people would light bonfires and wear costumes to ward off roaming ghosts. In the eighth century, Pope Gregory III designated November 1 as a time to honor all saints and martyrs; the holiday, All Saints’ Day, incorporated some of the traditions of Samhain. The evening before was known as All Hallows’ Eve and later Halloween. Over time, Halloween evolved into a secular, community-based event characterized by child-friendly activities such as trick-or-treating. In a number of countries around the world, as the days grow shorter and the nights get colder, people continue to usher in the winter season with gatherings, costumes and sweet treats.[/list]
Alas it was yet another pagan practice usurped and assimilated into the Wal-Mart of religions.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Indeed, you refocused on me instead of addressing any of my commentary on Catholicism,
I didn't disagree with the point that Catholicism is fundamentally different, or that it takes former pagan holidays and practices and incorporates them, which was instrumental in its success. That's self-evident.
The whole "My Evangelist/Born-Again/My Cousin Talks to Snakes Bullshit Christian sect is the only sect and Catholics are fakes" I take issue with. Definitively speaking, anyone who believes in Christ, regardless of tradition or doctrine, is a Christian. This whole circle-jerk BS about who is the true Christian is about as useful and polite as asking a bunch of women their ages and weights.
It's futile and stupid. Other people worship differently. Unless they are barging in and infringing on your right to do whatever in your own homes or worship centers, who gives a ****? Can you not sleep at night because other people might believe differently?
misdirected by posting a taunting meme which would only make sense if you thought I was JIA myself, which I'm not,
1. You're butt-hurt.
2. Admit it.
3. As Rob stated, I fist-punched your anus in a debate and now you've taken to trolling me at length across other threads. QQ.
and strawman by pretending you're for free expression and against those who would seek to limit it while instead you've been trying to bully and intimidate those who dare support the original posters view.
No, you just committed a strawman right there. I said clearly that people are entitled to think what they want. I noted that there's a fine line between where and when it is acceptable; the Forum Crusaders seem to think it's always acceptable, in any form, across a multitude of threads, despite rampant objection, and in the face of the forum rules even.
That I don't subscribe to at all.
So get your shit straight.
I'm genuinely amazed here, though: you operate like this despite not only agreeing with me on many points but in having MADE some of these very points yourself.
See above. Catholics are Christians. Evangelists are Christians. The crazy man who thinks his dog is Christ come again is a Christian.
Immediately coming to mind is how Catholicism adopts pagan practices and recreates them as its own.
And you think other sects are immune? LOL.
Have fun at Christmas.
I gave the example of praying to Mary, a variation on praying to female deities common to other religions contemporary to that time.
Mary was so awesome God made her the mother of his only child, who is the center of your religion. Who gives a **** if some people respect her more than others? She was, by all accounts, a good person, and deserves respect. Even for a non-Christian, this mentality is baffling.
But this is not something you disagree with. You yourself believe the Catholic Church adopted pagan practices as it own.
You said as much in response to a poster in one of JIA's "Halloween" threads, or at least included the Catholic history portion of it:
K. Derp.
I realized a few moments after sending the previous message that I should have included a link to the page the above (and below) appeared on:
Originally posted by siriuswriterYou DO know that Halloween used to be a Christian holiday?
All Hallow's Eve? All Hallow's Day? Also known as All Saint's Day?
You celebrated and remembered those who had died before you and the miracle that they weren't going to hell because Jesus had saved them and everything?
OMG. It's a Christian site - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.
I can link them too!digi - Dr. Whunicorn? That's hilarious. 😄
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ever-reliable History.com even indicates it had purpose before Christ:[list]Straddling the line between fall and winter, plenty and paucity, life and death, Halloween is a time of celebration and superstition. It is thought to have originated with the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain, when people would light bonfires and wear costumes to ward off roaming ghosts. In the eighth century, Pope Gregory III designated November 1 as a time to honor all saints and martyrs; the holiday, All Saints’ Day, incorporated some of the traditions of Samhain. The evening before was known as All Hallows’ Eve and later Halloween. Over time, Halloween evolved into a secular, community-based event characterized by child-friendly activities such as trick-or-treating. In a number of countries around the world, as the days grow shorter and the nights get colder, people continue to usher in the winter season with gatherings, costumes and sweet treats.[/list]
Alas it was yet another pagan practice usurped and assimilated into the Wal-Mart of religions.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I didn't disagree with the point that Catholicism is fundamentally different, or that it takes former pagan holidays and practices and incorporates them, which was instrumental in its success. That's self-evident.
It's "self-evident" to you, not to many others.
Good to have this quote from you.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Catholics, however, take this passage as "Peter is the founder of the Church".
In Catholicism that is just false. Tradition has it that Peter and James (Jesus's brother) were the leaders of the Jérusalem Church after Jesus's death. If the reading was later embellished to reflect that hard reality, it doesn't change the fact that Peter was recognized as the leader back then and thus a pope.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pr, fairness likewise demands acknowledging, among other things, that:-- JIA is not around to defend himself
-- JIA's level of trolling was scarcely more than what other members of this forum regularly engage in
-- posters like Stealth Moose do precious little to "encourage debate" among those who [b]dis
agree with themTrue fairness requires representing both sides; not just one.[/b]
When/if Stealth Moose does something worthy of being banned, he'll be kicked out.
I'm not going to pretend there isn't a lot of religion bashing on this forum. There is. That said, JIA was only contributing to making it worse, in the opinions of myself and several of the other mods.
Ironic it may seem to you, but even noteworthy and staunch [b]atheists like Penn Jilette recognize there is a profound difference among groups like Catholics and Protestants.
Moreover, they recognize, though the average person might not, that the language we use today takes the shape that it does as a result of constant maneuvering for political power, not because there is true common ideological glue holding these groups together.Examine the following from the 17 minute mark until 22 minutes past and note Penn's discussion with Beck on the matter:
(speech is transcripted below the dotted line for readers who cannot view YouTube)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LnVa7zXgc#t=1310
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You get to the 70s ... and Roe v Wade comes in...
and some very, very intelligent people said
"You know, we can't fight this with "Catholics",
and "Protestants", and "Baptists", and "Lutherans" all disagreeing.
We need an umbrella."And they kind of came up with the word "Christian".
The first president we have that calls himself a Christian ... is Jimmy Carter.
Before that ... you know ... John F. Kennedy is a "Catholic".
Others are "Baptist". Others are "Lutheran".
But they don't use the word "Christian"...The Founding Fathers will use the word "deist" ...
(Adams of course used "Protestant" and used "Methodist" ... )
but they don't use that word ...
and then in order to fight that you get this big umbrella of "Christians"
Which is what gives you 70% of the country being "Christian" ... not breaking it up ...
Then we get to Mitt Romney and we are now adding in ... the Mormons ...
[who] are now referring to themselves as "Christians" and getting in there ...Most atheists flip out at the direction this is going ...
I say "No, no this is great because we're next! ...
Yes! Let's just keep including ... !" ...-- Penn Jilette
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/B]
Just a quick note: I'm Irish. Born and raised. Few groups of people in the world have been exposed to the ideological differences between protestants and catholics, and the violence that comes from it, than Irish people. It's stupid, and frankly it annoys me that any one group thinks that their religion is somehow better than anyone else's. Especially when they're so similar.
This isn't me having a go at you; just me saying that I know full well how bad it can get, so please, don't take offense.
Originally posted by -Pr-
When/if Stealth Moose does something worthy of being banned, he'll be kicked out.I'm not going to pretend there isn't a lot of religion bashing on this forum. There is. That said, JIA was only contributing to making it worse, in the opinions of myself and several of the other mods.
Just a quick note: I'm Irish. Born and raised. Few groups of people in the world have been exposed to the ideological differences between protestants and catholics, and the violence that comes from it, than Irish people. It's stupid, and frankly it annoys me that any one group thinks that their religion is somehow better than anyone else's. Especially when they're so similar.
This isn't me having a go at you; just me saying that I know full well how bad it can get, so please, don't take offense.
👆