Originally posted by Bardock42You're the model of self-control. I commend you. I'd knight you if I managed to kill the Queen and assume her lizard throne.
This happens to be true. I think I typed out 4 to 5 different replies to it, one more insane than the other due to me not being sure if I liked it or hated it. I then settled for the most reasonable one. I have so much self control.
Originally posted by ThePittman
How many murders have you heard off that they have killed the killer out of revenge? There are thousands of murders each years and by your logic every one would be dead. Did I say it didn’t happen, no it is very rare that it happens and as I said more or less in gangs.Nice way to stack the question and comparing something that kills millions to billions to drug crimes is laughable. You have missed my point entirely.
In the mind of most civilized people that is a just punishment, and as I said (which you keep missing) I said most not all, you will have you people that will want to kill the entire family for killing their kid but again that is very VERY rare.
Again you do not understand my post and miss that I say most and not all.
Again and not all, can one killing start lots of killing, yes and they are called wars with your logic. No one would be alive with your logic. You really need to study criminology and psychology and learn and see the effects of sexual abuse on a minor and see what it does to their lives and then maybe you would fricken understand. Watching your friend wishing they were dead then waking up every night with the same nightmare of them abusing you over and over again is a F*CKING living death. It’s nice to know that you would rater be tortured for the rest of you life then for someone to waste a bullet on you.
It's quite apparent to me that you don't have the faculty to step outside of your own blinkered and narrow point, which, when others disagree, you put your head in the sand and insist they have missed, despite it being as obvious as a red watermelon in a biggest tomato contest.
I clearly said, my point was exaggerated- as are yours. You just don't realise they are.
Would you insist that people that have been abused are better off dead?
(You've answered it with your stupid points, but I'll ask directly)
I could sit and deconstruct that post, but that would be pointless (like your argument, how ironic).
Originally posted by Victor Von DoomMy points are not exaggerated at all, everything that I have compared to and the scenarios are based in reality and what happens and likely to happen. However you seem to over exaggerate what I say and only overlook what I have said. I have said by the crime itself murder is worse then pedophilia but I have also seen first hand what both do to people and their families. My best friend was rapped by his stepfather when he was 13 and I saw what it did to him, the nightmares, drugs for depression and his personality change and he was never the same again and when he was 16 took his own life because of it. For 3 years he lived in his own personal hell and died inside. Another of my friends died in a bar fight over a fricking spilled beer and another by a drunken driver but I wouldn’t wish what happened to my best friend on anyone, it tore his family apart and they still have a hard time dealing with it.
It's quite apparent to me that you don't have the faculty to step outside of your own blinkered and narrow point, which, when others disagree, you put your head in the sand and insist they have missed, despite it being as obvious as a red watermelon in a biggest tomato contest.I clearly said, my point was exaggerated- as are yours. You just don't realise they are.
Would you insist that people that have been abused are better off dead?
(You've answered it with your stupid points, but I'll ask directly)
I could sit and deconstruct that post, but that would be pointless (like your argument, how ironic).
You want to attack me and call me dumb and that I’m pointless that is fine, it just goes to show your maturity and that this is a pointless debate with you.
Originally posted by ThePittman
My best friend was rapped by his stepfather when he was 13 and I saw what it did to him, the nightmares, drugs for depression and his personality change and he was never the same again and when he was 16 took his own life because of it. For 3 years he lived in his own personal hell and died inside. Another of my friends died in a bar fight over a fricking spilled beer and another by a drunken driver but I wouldn’t wish what happened to my best friend on anyone, it tore his family apart and they still have a hard time dealing with it.
So it is demonstrated: death is the ultimate end of a bad scale. Don't use death as a worsening factor if you aren't willing to admit the obvious. It's illogical.
Originally posted by ThePittman
this is a pointless debate with you.
Indeed.
Death is not the final bad thing that happens, living your life in torture and pain is and death is often sought out as a release from that pain and that is why my friend took his life to end his suffering caused by his F*UCKED in the head stepfather. Your view on what I had posted is illogical, this is to demonstrate that the pain that he suffered was greater then taking his own life.
Read a little more of the cause and effects of sexual assaults, now granted this applies to children and adults but think about what this does to children when they haven’t developed the mental barriers and cooping abilities of adults.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/svfacts.htm
Death is sometimes preferable to some then living like this. It is considered cruel and inhuman to torture people so why is that worse then killing them in the eyes of the law? I’m not downgrading the crime of murder however when has any sexual assault or rape been done for good? In your view what is worse, killing someone by shooting them in the head or torturing them for days then letting them bleed to death? What makes one worse then the other, they both die and by your definition death is the worse thing that could happen.
You can keep calling me illogical and dumb all that you want but you have done nothing but try and belittle me and my point of view and done nothing to disprove me with any effectiveness at all. I have seen the cause and effect of each first hand, can you say that?
you fail to grasp the point that circumstantial evidence is useless on BOTH SIDES.
thats why people including myself have countered your anecdodal posts with anecdotal rebuttals. they are not meant to be debated, but rather meant to prove a point: its a logical fallacy and has no place in this or any debate. sorry, but that is fact.
people become depressed and kill themselves because they were molested. does that make it rational? because people have killed themselves? and what is the direct cause of that? molestation? no, its depression. indirect cause is molestation, but there are many other indirect causes for such deep depression. i would wager that the greatest statistical cause of depression to suicide has nothing at all to do with any crime, let alone rape. suicide is an irrational act by a depressed person (outside of the taliban anyway) and thus you cannot tie rationallity to it.
point: many people commit suicide over depression from being rejected, alienated, betrayed etc. to them, death is more acceptable than this. does that mean we should apply it to the logic of our system of law? i would bet that most suicides involve a failed relationship. most i ever hear about involve just that. a woman finds out her hubby is screwing around and decides death is better than having to live with it...so now we can submit that to the "worse than death" hall of fame? should adultery be considered worse than murder?
a desperate act of a person in the deepest pit of irrational depression is no basis for philosophy of what is better/worse than death
Originally posted by ThePittman
Death is not the final bad thing that happens, living your life in torture and pain is and death is often sought out as a release from that pain and that is why my friend took his life to end his suffering caused by his F*UCKED in the head stepfather. Your view on what I had posted is illogical, this is to demonstrate that the pain that he suffered was greater then taking his own life.Read a little more of the cause and effects of sexual assaults, now granted this applies to children and adults but think about what this does to children when they haven’t developed the mental barriers and cooping abilities of adults.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/svfacts.htm
Death is sometimes preferable to some then living like this. It is considered cruel and inhuman to torture people so why is that worse then killing them in the eyes of the law? I’m not downgrading the crime of murder however when has any sexual assault or rape been done for good? In your view what is worse, killing someone by shooting them in the head or torturing them for days then letting them bleed to death? What makes one worse then the other, they both die and by your definition death is the worse thing that could happen.
You can keep calling me illogical and dumb all that you want but you have done nothing but try and belittle me and my point of view and done nothing to disprove me with any effectiveness at all. I have seen the cause and effect of each first hand, can you say that?
The point being made in this case:
"My best friend was rapped by his stepfather when he was 13 and I saw what it did to him, the nightmares, drugs for depression and his personality change and he was never the same again and when he was 16 took his own life because of it."
...is simply that it's worse because he ended up taking his own life. If he hadn't committed suicide, it would be dramatically less tragic.
-AC
I do grasp the point, and I have said MANY times if you count just the crime itself and nothing else then murder is greater then pedophile, but when is it ever that black and white? If you kill someone they look at the reasons why you killed them and what was you mental status so that makes one killing justified and the other a crime.
It still has cause and effect and you can directly link the rape to the mental trauma and suicide and there have been cases where the rapist was tried for murder because of it. For me it is worse living your life in pain and suffering then death, I would rather die then be tortured for the rest of my life.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriYou do make a good point, maybe it is the lost of hope that he may have gotten better and become the man that I knew he could have become. I was young and didn’t really understand what happening to him until later in my life. Maybe it is that loss of hope that makes it worse but seeing someone that you care about living in pain is so very hard to deal with.
The point being made in this case:"My best friend was rapped by his stepfather when he was 13 and I saw what it did to him, the nightmares, drugs for depression and his personality change and he was never the same again and when he was 16 took his own life because of it."
...is simply that it's worse because he ended up taking his own life. If he hadn't committed suicide, it would be dramatically less tragic.
-AC
Originally posted by ThePittman
You do make a good point, maybe it is the lost of hope that he may have gotten better and become the man that I knew he could have become. I was young and didn’t really understand what happening to him until later in my life. Maybe it is that loss of hope that makes it worse but seeing someone that you care about living in pain is so very hard to deal with.
No, it's worse because now he is dead forever as opposed to being alive, isn't it?
Someone please have the courage to step up and admit that eternal death is actually worse, with the exception of Bardock who doesn't see a worse.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI just said that it is worse but seeing the person in pain and suffering is hard to deal with. For him death was the release and he just couldn’t take it any more, you out of all here let me see this point. All I was trying to say is that for me I can see where pain and suffering is greater then death sometimes but that seemed to be overlooked.
No, it's worse because now he is dead forever as opposed to being alive, isn't it?Someone please have the courage to step up and admit that eternal death is actually worse, with the exception of Bardock who doesn't see a worse.
-AC
Originally posted by Victor Von DoomDo you have to try and belittle me with every post? 😉 I have already said that I didn’t think that this was a black and white question and what some may consider “worse” is different than your opinion. This is a very open-ended question not like is red the same as blue.
Hmm.In a thread called, 'What's worse: Pedophiles or Murderers?' maybe.
Originally posted by ThePittman
Do you have to try and belittle me with every post? 😉 I have already said that I didn’t think that this was a black and white question and what some may consider “worse” is different than your opinion. This is a very open-ended question not like is red the same as blue.
So it's subjective in terms of opinion? Well then, every question is open-ended. Why ever debate? To many people jaywalking is worse than molestation. (Admittedly that would mostly be paedophiles)
Fine, let's use something concrete- law.
Murder is worse.
Or we could use amount of damage to the organism.
Murder is worse.
Reversibility- murder.
Hysterical reaction? Oh, that's paedophilia actually.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
So it's subjective in terms of opinion? Well then, every question is open-ended. Why ever debate?
Um opinions by their very nature are subjective.
If someone wants to debate close ended questioning vs open ended questioning that is very simple to do and to prove which is which.
Originally posted by Victor Von DoomNot every question is open ended, this one was. It didn’t say which one by law is worse; the term worse is a personal opinion on a subject. It could be what is worse to a society, mental state, economics or what ever. It is nice that you can always look at things in black and white but I like to look beyond that and see the reasons why, if the thread starter meant it to be a black and white question then he didn’t phrase it well and normally doesn’t make a good debating topic.
So it's subjective in terms of opinion? Well then, every question is open-ended. Why ever debate? To many people jaywalking is worse than molestation. (Admittedly that would mostly be paedophiles)Fine, let's use something concrete- law.
Murder is worse.
Or we could use amount of damage to the organism.
Murder is worse.
Reversibility- murder.
Hysterical reaction? Oh, that's paedophilia actually.
May I ask a personal question? Why are you so bitter? 😉
Originally posted by ThePittman
Not every question is open ended, this one was.
Ones which invoke opinion are- that's what I just said.
Originally posted by ThePittman
It didn’t say which one by law is worse; the term worse is a personal opinion on a subject. It could be what is worse to a society, mental state, economics or what ever.
Hence what I just posted.
Originally posted by ThePittman
It is nice that you can always look at things in black and white but I like to look beyond that and see the reasons why, if the thread starter meant it to be a black and white question then he didn’t phrase it well and normally doesn’t make a good debating topic.
True. you're right. Everything is better and worse than everything.
Next thread!
Originally posted by ThePittman
May I ask a personal question? Why are you so bitter? 😉
Oh no, the smileys are out. Please don't start using those in place of actual points, it's tiresome.
Originally posted by Soleran
Um opinions by their very nature are subjective.
You appear to be, as the French say, 'La catching on'. I don't actually know why this post...exists.
Originally posted by Soleran
If someone wants to debate close ended questioning vs open ended questioning that is very simple to do and to prove which is which.
The thread was- strictly- a closed question. Though again, I'm not sure what point you are making. Some things require more debate than others? Some things are opinion, some are fact? Something...non-obvious?
If every question is couched in terms of opinion, then every question is arguable. Wrongly so, but arguable.
Otherwise, both sides will post random stories, and then people get pissed off. Then there's a big fight, and then some guy gets involved, cos he's walking past, and saw it going on. He's just the troublemaker sort. Then...so on.
PS- 'worse' isn't a 'personal opinion on a subject'. It's a scale based on measured quantities of a particular defined parameter. It just so happens there isn't one here.