Originally posted by AlfheimNo they don't, they say that when feats of SvFL, which is contingent on the feat being a statistical outlier, are repeated many times and i.e. no longer statistical outliers, then they can be considered not SvFL.
This is the thing im not even arguing against it. If it is PIS then the forum rules say that something is not PIS if it happens all the time.
PIS is not contingent on consistency. If Flash gets hit by Deathstroke to advance the plot ten times it's still PIS considering Flash's speed.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They're similar concepts but they're distinct concepts. That's why there are two of them.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No they don't, they say that when feats of SvFL, which is contingent on the feat being a statistical outlier, are repeated many times and i.e. no longer statistical outliers, then they can be considered not SvFL.PIS is not contingent on consistency. If Flash gets hit by Deathstroke to advance the plot ten times it's still PIS considering Flash's speed.
i agree. the problem we run into with this though, is that WHENEVER flash is hit, it then becomes PIS (unless it's by zoom, or reverse flash, etc . . .)
that amounts to . . . a lot of pis. 😬
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No they don't, they say that when feats of SvFL, which is contingent on the feat being a statistical outlier, are repeated many times and i.e. no longer statistical outliers, then they can be considered not SvFL.
I dont quite understand this you're saying that SvFl is contigent to consistency not PIS?
Originally posted by Alfheim
The guy can lift the back of a train. Its not illogical at that strength level he should be bulletproof.
Spidey's exact strength level is unknown, if we're going by comic book appearances. But bullets can penetrate a lot of though shit. Spidey's superhumanly dense skin and muscle tissue should be no problem, since he's not exactly a top tier in that department.
Dont give me that crap. Does it say she has a special weakness here or does it just say she is vulnerable to bullets?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman#Powers_and_abilities
Diana is one of the strongest superheroes in the DC Universe. Her stamina affords her incredible resistance to injury and blunt force trauma. However, [B]Diana's skin is not invulnerable and can be pierced by sharp projectiles with sufficient force distributed over a small surface area (such as bullets or arrows).
Its not a special weakness its just the way shes been written stop looking for loopholes.[/b]
What the hell? There MUST be a special reason, since Superman and the rest of the gang are ALL bulletproof. This was a conscious decision by the writers. There are lower tier characters who are less vulnerable to bullets than Wondy. If there's no stated reason, then it has yet to be explained. But honestly, I don't read Wonder Woman, so there probably IS an explanation.
If he can dodge bullets and lasers in midflight he should be able to make a sonic boom because he can move faster than the speed of sound.
Reflexes + faster than human speed + pre-cog does not equal the speed of sound. Spiderman can't outrun a bullet, nor can he keep up with a sound blast. He can however, avoid getting hit by a bullet with a combination of the above.
Originally posted by AlfheimLet's take the example of Namor. Namor is stated to lift something like 85 tons. Marvel haven't felt the need to update this information. He once lifted a tanker which would weigh in excess of 10s if not over a 100 thousand tons. In and of itself this would be an SvFL feat, a statistical outlier. Yet he has multiple feats far in excess of 85 tons which would place him in the mid class 100 category.
I dont quite understand this you're saying that SvFl is contigent to consistency not PIS?
However if a fight occurred between Superman and Namor, and the showing had Superman at reduced speed, reduced strength, reduced invulnerability, in comparison to his numerous strength, speed and invulnerability showings previously, and not using his variety of powers against Namor, in order to prolong the fight or plot, it would be PIS. If multiple fights like this occurred, it would still be PIS.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Spidey's exact strength level is unknown. But bullets can penetrate a lot of though shit. Spidey's superhumanly dense skin and muscle tissue should be no problem, since he's not exactly a top tier in that department.
There are humans in the real world who have survived close range shots from 30 caliber. He may not be bulletproof to an Uzi but he should at least be 30 caliber proof.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
What the hell? There MUST be a special reason, since Superman and the rest of the gang are ALL bulletproof. This was a conscious decision by the writers. There are lower tier characters who are less vulnerable to bullets than Wondy. If there's no stated reason, then it has yet to be explained. But honestly, I don't read Wonder Woman, so there probably IS an explanation.
Well until we get one she isnt.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Reflexes + faster than human speed + pre-cog does not equal the speed of sound. Spiderman can't outrun a bullet, nor can he keep up with a sound blast. He can however, avoid getting hit by a bullet with a combination of the above.
There was a scan of him catching a bullet in midflight. Therefore he can dodge bullets in midflight.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Let's take the example of Namor. Namor is stated to lift something like 85 tons. Marvel haven't felt the need to update this information. He once lifted a tanker which would weigh in excess of 10s if not over a 100 thousand tons. In and of itself this would be an SvFL feat, a statistical outlier. Yet he has multiple feats far in excess of 85 tons which would place him in the mid class 100 category.However if a fight occurred between Superman and Namor, and the showing had Superman at reduced speed, reduced strength, reduced invulnerability, in comparison to his numerous strength, speed and invulnerability showings previously, and not using his variety of powers against Namor, in order to prolong the fight or plot, it would be PIS. If multiple fights like this occurred, it would still be PIS.
Well at any rate the superman and batman example is similar to PIS and some people think it is the samething therefore it still apllies to PIS.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Let's take the example of Namor. Namor is stated to lift something like 85 tons. Marvel haven't felt the need to update this information. He once lifted a tanker which would weigh in excess of 10s if not over a 100 thousand tons. In and of itself this would be an SvFL feat, a statistical outlier. Yet he has multiple feats far in excess of 85 tons which would place him in the mid class 100 category.However if a fight occurred between Superman and Namor, and the showing had Superman at reduced speed, reduced strength, reduced invulnerability, in comparison to his numerous strength, speed and invulnerability showings previously, and not using his variety of powers against Namor, in order to prolong the fight or plot, it would be PIS. If multiple fights like this occurred, it would still be PIS.
i think there are varying degrees of pis. svfl is at one end -- it's an extreme case. flash being struck seems LESS pis-sy to me solely for the reason that it HAS happened so many times.
in debates, i tend to view consistency as a top priority in decision making. i throw out the extreme highs and lows, generally.
the ultimate arbiter in deciding pis of course, is common sense, based on the knowledge of characters.
Originally posted by AlfheimNo offense to Tron, but the examples he's given don't match the descriptions he's put. The very name SvFL is somewhat inaccurate, the fight between Spider-Man and Firelord is more an instance of CIS with elements of PIS by the descriptions given.
Well at any rate the superman and batman example is similar to PIS and some people think it is the samething therefore it still apllies to PIS.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No offense to Tron, but the examples he's given don't match the descriptions he's put. The very name SvFL is somewhat inaccurate, the fight between Spider-Man and Firelord is more an instance of CIS by the descriptions given.
Well thats tough he had better change it then. 😒
Originally posted by leonidasThat's the thing though, you're still throwing out any absurdly high showings regardless of if they're repeated multiple times.
in debates, i tend to view consistency as a top priority in decision making. i throw out the extreme highs and lows, generally.
Originally posted by leonidasOf course.
the ultimate arbiter in deciding pis of course, is common sense, based on the knowledge of characters.
Originally posted by AlfheimDude, stfu kthx.
Of course it is but xmarks will just keep arguing and arguing and arguing because he cant admit to being wrong.
Re: Are PIS and SvFL similar?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Are PIS and SvFL similar concepts? If not explain why.
I happen to be one of those who have read the comic. Or should I say comics, because it took Spider-Man two issues before he finally beat him down.
I never never never understood why this is all of a sudden such an impossible thing. Firelord is not half as tough as people seem to think, isn't the smartest one around, and is a one trick pony (fire powers yeah we get it).
He's probably one of the weakest heralds ever (still strong, mind you) and it took Spider-Man two whole comics to actually beat him. Not with one punch, or two, but with dozens of punches, one after the other.
Spider-Man can hurt the Hulk - a bit. Why can't he beat up Firelord who is no way as durable as Hulk ? Especially when he was speedblitzing him ? He can bend steel with ease, is Firelord made of steel ? Didn't think so.
What does people give the false idea that Firelord is extremely durable ? He isn't, end of discussion.
I agree, there was a bit PIS or CIS in that comic. No problem admitting that. If Firelord played it smart, he could have killed Spider-Man pretty easily. So a bit PIS and CIS yes.
But not that much.
I can give numerous examples of truly PIS or CIS moments (Batman batkicking Hulk for example).
Originally posted by Alfheim
There are humans in the real world who have survived close range shots from 30 caliber. He may not be bulletproof to an Uzi but he should at least be 30 caliber proof.
Surviving =/= bulletproof.
Spidey "survived" bullet wounds as well. And ofcourse, if there's any type of bullet that cannot directly penetrate the skin of a human being, then it can't penetrate Spidey's skin either. Common sense. And so what, maybe his skin IS hard enough to be 30 caliber proof? He's never been shot by one, as far as I know. But you shouldn't underestimate any type of bullet.
Well until we get one she isnt.
Whether you like it or not, there IS a reason. I mean, she's an exception to the rule, right? That measn there IS a reason. They just can't be bothered to explain it. But they don't even HAVE to explain it, a.f.a.i.k, since her powers are mystical (supernatural) in nature. Take Juggernaut, for example. His powers are magical/mystical as well, which allows him to have levels of durability and stamina that aren't in proportion to his size, weight and energy eficiency.
There was a scan of him catching a bullet in midflight. Therefore he can dodge bullets in midflight
Yes, that was after his power up. He's A LOT faster now. And he has avoided bullets in mid fight before. But that doesn't equal the speed of sound. It's just that he has extraordinary reflexes + plus Pre-cog. His superhuman manoeuvrability, running speed and equilibrium also help.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's the thing though, you're still throwing out any absurdly high showings regardless of if they're repeated multiple times.
consistent repitition of a feat that should be 'impossible' for a character however in my book becomes . . . acceptable to me. technically, while it may indeed be pis, the consistent nature of the feat (and i always think of wolverine for some reason . . .) over-rides the pis.
can something be both pis and NOT pis . . .? 😕