Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Wonder Woman is susceptible to piercing injury because blocking things with her bracelets is a signature of her character.
Yeah, I know that. But is there a logical explanation? I think it has something to do with her magical touch. Magic can defy regular physics in any possible way, so that might be the most logical explanation.
Originally posted by leonidasFor clarification purposes are you referring to a character doing something beyond their abilities or a character being lowered for the sake of plot. Because it seems you're referring to the former i.e. SvFL.
consistent repitition of a feat that should be 'impossible' for a character however in my book becomes . . . acceptable to me. technically, while it may indeed be pis, the consistent nature of the feat (and i always think of wolverine for some reason . . .) over-rides the pis.can something be both pis and NOT pis . . .? 😕
Originally posted by DinalfosWonder Woman can touch someone's forehead and make them fall asleep. Sometimes writers give characters strange abilities.
Yeah, I know that. But is there a logical explanation? I think it has something to do with her magical touch. Magic can defy regular physics in any possible way, so that might be the most logical explanation.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Whether you like it or not, there IS a reason. I mean, she's an exception to the rule, right? That measn there IS a reason. They just can't be bothered to explain it. But they don't even HAVE to explain it, a.f.a.i.k, since her powers are mystical (supernatural) in nature.
Take Juggernaut, for example. His powers are magical/mystical as well, which allows him to have levels of durability and stamina that aren't in proportion to his size, weight and energy eficiency.
No, no, no, no, no! Stop trying to look for loopholes. No reason is given regardless of wether she is an exception to the rule.. Regardless of wether its magical or mutation strength is proportinate to durability.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Take Juggernaut, for example. His powers are magical/mystical as well, which allows him to have levels of durability and stamina that aren't in proportion to his size, weight and energy eficiency.
This example is irrelevant. Juggernauts attributes are all proporianate he has a forcefields as well.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yes, that was after his power up. He's A LOT faster now. And he has avoided bullets in mid fight before. But that doesn't equal the speed of sound. It's just that he has extraordinary reflexes + plus Pre-cog. His superhuman manoeuvrability, running speed and equilibrium also help.
Well im sure he has dodged lasers in mid flight. Anyway he should still be bulletproof.
Frankly the onus is on you to prove that someone's strength is always proportional to their durability when you make a statement like that. "Prove it isn't so" is logical fallacy.
Even then Wonder Woman does have high level durability. Her personal exception is that piercing injury can harm her, because it's instilled in her characterization.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Frankly the onus is on you to prove that someone's strength is always proportional to their durability when you make a statement like that. "Prove it isn't so" is logical fallacy.
Get the **** out. I asked you first, its bloody common sense like the batman/superman example. You are fobbing me off again.
Make it snappy I gotta go soon.
Originally posted by Alfheim
No, no, no, no, no! Stop trying to look for loopholes. [B]No reason is given regardless of wether she is an exception to the rule.. Regardless of wether its magical or mutation strength is proportinate to durability.[/b]
Fine, you don't have to accept it. But if there's a deviation somewhere, there MUST be a reason, even if the writer doesn't care.
And what you said is ridiculous. Magic can throw EVERYTHING off, if desired. That's the whole point of magic: to defy whatever is held as a standard. It's possible to grant someone infinite durability with a magic spell, but at the same time keep his strength on a set level. That's magic/mysticism for you. Now, if you're talking about Spiderman, then you'd have a point. His powers (probably) aren't magical, just superhuman.
This example is irrelevant. Juggernauts attributes are all proporianate he has a forcefields as well.
You call his durability and stamina proportionate? 😕
They're not. They're magically enhanced to whatever level Cyttorak deems appropriate. Now, if Cyttorak gave Juggernaut only strength you would have a point. Then his durability automatically scales up to match his improved energy efficiency.
Well im sure he has dodged lasers in mid flight. Anyway he should still be bulletproof.
Dude, no. He shouldn't. But then again, who are we to say? None of us humans have experience with actual and true superhuman strength, resistance and resilience. We do, however, know what a human can or can't take. I suppose this could be scientifically calculated.....
Originally posted by AlfheimDurability and strength do not always go hand in hand. Forcefields, partial bionics, magic spells, just a few examples.
Get the **** out. I asked you first, its bloody common sense like the batman/superman example. You are fobbing me off again.Make it snappy I gotta go soon.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
For clarification purposes are you referring to a character doing something beyond their abilities or a character being lowered for the sake of plot. Because it seems you're referring to the former i.e. SvFL.
either one. as an example -- if batman kicks and harms/ko's cap marvel ONE time, it is clearly pis. actually, it's clearly stupid . . .
if however, bats was shown kicking and harming cm, ww, superman, hulk, cm again and again, well then, logically speaking it REMAINS pis, but it becomes somehow acceptable to me in the "comicbook world" and i chalk it up to 'comicbook logic'. (though the above may be better called cis than pis on both bats's part and on his opponents' part).
if supes doesn't sense bats sneak up on him time and time again, i chalk it up to bats's character, rather than labelling it consistent pis or cis on superman's part.
consistency renders the aforementioned events somehow more acceptable to me. i HATE calling pis. so long as the comicbook/hero does not break its/his OWN INTERNAL LAWS of consistency, suspension of disbelief (on my part) can be maintained. it's when a feat or event happens that BREAKS the established internal consistency (as opposed to the 'what-should-be-logical-based-on-my-outside-the-comicbook-world-point-of-view'😉 that i have a problem and call pis.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Fine, you don't have to accept it. But if there's a deviation somewhere, there MUST be a reason, even if the writer doesn't care.
Well there isn't one.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
And what you said is ridiculous. Magic can throw EVERYTHING off, if desired. That's the whole point of magic: to defy whatever is held as a standard. It's possible to grant someone infinite durability with a magic spell, but at the same time keep his strength on a set level. That's magic/mysticism for you.
Well ok you got a point there...thinks....yeah you have...hate you. 😛
Anyway i'll have to think about that.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Now, if you're talking about Spiderman, then you'd have a point. His powers (probably) aren't magical, just superhuman.
Yeah.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
You call his durability and stamina proportionate? 😕They're not. They're magically enhanced to whatever level Cyttorak deems appropriate. Now, if Cyttorak gave Juggernaut only strength you would have a point. Then his durability automatically scales up to match his improved energy efficiency.
Well no pitn going into this because of what you said earlier.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Dude, no. He shouldn't. But then again, who are we to say? None of us humans have experience with actual and true superhuman strength, resistance and resilience. We do, however, know what a human can or can't take. I suppose this could be scientifically calculated.....
Ok so if some humans can survive being shot by 30 caliber you're telling me that Spiderman who can lift up the back of a train should not at least be 30 caliber proof. He isnt even knife resistant.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Durability and strength do not always go hand in hand. Forcefields, partial bionics, magic spells, just a few examples.
Well ok theres magic. Well yeah duh forcefields, but im talking about physical durability for example characters like the Hulk etc etc. Yes of course partial bionics but im not refering to that again people with blantant superhuman durability and strength eg Hulk, Thing, Spiderman, Doc Samson etc etc get the picture?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well there isn't one.
But logically speaking, there MUST be. My explanation is the most logical one.
Well ok you got a point there...thinks....yeah you have...hate you. 😛
Anyway i'll have to think about that.
😛
Ok so if some humans can survive being shot by 30 caliber you're telling me that Spiderman who can lift up the back of a train should not at least be 30 caliber proof. He isnt even knife resistant.
He might just be. As for the knife resistance, well, that depends completely on the knife and the one wielding it. I agree that your regular aunt May should not be able to plant her kitchen knife into Spidey's left arm.
Re: Re: Are PIS and SvFL similar?
Originally posted by Kid KurdyWhat does people give the false idea that Firelord is extremely durable ? He isn't, end of discussion.
That's what makes this so damn complicated. Is it not PIS that Spiderman beat the crap out of Firelord because Firelord ain't that durable, or is it PIS that Firelord is made out to be relatively vulnerable? I mean considering the fact that he IS a herald with cosmic powers flowing through him. He's done all sorts of crazy shit.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok theres magic. Well yeah duh forcefields, but im talking about physical durability for example characters like the Hulk etc etc. Yes of course partial bionics but im not refering to that again people with blantant superhuman durability and strength eg Hulk, Thing, Spiderman, Doc Samson etc etc get the picture?
so you're only referring to characters with combination strength and durability when applying your "strength and durability" rule? i'm not sure i understand how you're trying to make that work.
other examples of characters with mismatched strength et durability include paulie provenzano, of the interim x-men, and otis [of knightwing restorations.] paulie has hulk-level durability, when comparing how both fared against high-speed punches from northstar, yet only enough strength to squish a gun. otis, the loveable tyke, seems to have no superstrength whatsoever, but took beatings from orka, a point-blank gunshot, and an iron fist without incident.
Originally posted by DinalfosHe might just be. As for the knife resistance, well, that depends completely on the knife and the one wielding it. I agree that your regular aunt May should not be able to plant her kitchen knife into Spidey's left arm.
Hes not knife proof. The number of time ive seen him dodging thugs with knifes. You might argue for bullets but he should definately but knife proof for the average thug.
Originally posted by Disappear
so you're only referring to characters with combination strength and durability when applying your "strength and durability" rule? i'm not sure i understand how you're trying to make that work.other examples of characters with mismatched strength et durability include paulie provenzano, of the interim x-men, and otis [of knightwing restorations.] paulie has hulk-level durability, when comparing how both fared against high-speed punches from northstar, yet only enough strength to squish a gun. otis, the loveable tyke, seems to have no superstrength whatsoever, but took beatings from orka, a point-blank gunshot, and an iron fist without incident.
Lets put it this way in the real world people are durable as they are strong. So it should apply to superhumans as well.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well lets put its this heavy weight boxers can take more damage than light weight boxers. As long as their not pansies.
this is way off the topic, but . . . that has more to do with mass than overall strength, though strength obviously has a hand in it. just because someone is physically stronger does not mean they are 'tougher' or can take more punishment. some of the smaller ufc heavyweights can take tremendous punishment -- more than many of the stronger combatants. and much more than some of the metal-heads down at my gym could ever HOPE to take . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
this is way off the topic, but . . . that has more to do with mass than overall strength, though strength obviously has a hand in it. just because someone is physically stronger does not mean they are 'tougher' or can take more punishment. some of the smaller ufc heavyweights can take tremendous punishment -- more than many of the stronger combatants. and much more than some of the metal-heads down at my gym could ever HOPE to take . . .
That could be ph **** i cant spell...physiclogical. I dont expect everything to be linear but of course physical strength is going to help durability. I know in boxing you strengthen the stomach and neck muscles to help resist blows, so strength defintely has a part to play in durability and the mind.
Anyway its not like their not connected.