The Greatest storyline ever

Started by ArtificialGlory9 pages

Originally posted by Soma Bringer
Allankles, have you even played these games out of curiosity? Even among its detracters its acknowledged as an extremely differentiated product with an almost incomprehensible plot that sees the word "convoluted" being thrown around almost constantly.

The sheer number of themes and the detail with which it explores these themes is largely unprecedented in any medium of storytelling, let alone when isolating the discussion to video games (Xenogears, Xenosaga, and the Chrono series being the only real exceptions). Movies are generally possessive of nowhere near the scope or detail of a grand story like Metal Gear Solid's, books in general place too high a value on the artistry behind writing, and exploring a general message rather than telling such a masterfully deep, complex tale. TV shows have a lot of potential due to their scope, but even the likes of Lost and Twin Peaks are of nowhere near the detail of something as grand as Metal Gear Solid.

You have the heavily explored theme of the manipulation of soldiers by politicians, and the concept behind "Outer Heaven", a military nation without politics where soldiers were respected and would always have a place in the world.

It explores a large number of themes relating to pacifism, includng the futility of war, the absurdity of nuclear deterrence, the dangers of nuclear weapons in general, the psychological effects of warfare on children and adults, the concept that enemies are only enemies in relative terms, and motivations behind the different lifestyles individuals choose.

It deals with genetics and the moral implications of genetic engineering, how identity can be affected by the philosophies of one's society and the effects of censorship on society, how the time and place one lives in affects their identity and how politics change along with the times, as well as the 'sense' that people die, things move on and times change and that life shouldn't be lived fighting.

That's not to mention the many philosophical and cyberpunk themes that it also happens to explore in great detail, including that of meme theory, social engineering, sociology, artificial intelligence, information control, conspiracy theories, political and military maneuvering, evolution, existentialism, censorship, the manipulation of free will, and the nature of reality.

And the "cookie cutter baddies" and their "cookie cutter monologues" that you cite are often the very mouthpieces with which Hideo Kojima explores these deep themes.

As far as how complex it is, it's not really something that can be so easily explained in a matter of words given the scope and detail of Metal Gear Solid's storyline, and it's largely based around the timing that crucial pieces of information are revealed to the player and the exact manner in which it is told.

None of that makes a good story. You'd be surprised, many writers could quite easily make a story that explores many "difficult" philosophical and moral subjects. That, of course, wouldn't mean that the story would be compelling or interesting.

I find MGS to be convoluted, trite, and, at times, corny as all hell. Call me simple, but I prefer an interesting and compelling storyline to a contorted one that is boring and preachy. If I wanted that, I'd pick up a book by Kafka or Dostoyevsky.

Of course, there are instances where a story is both complicated AND compelling. Such as Master & Margarita by M. Bulgakov. Beats the almighty crap out of MGS, that's for sure.

I find MGS to be convoluted, trite, and, at times, corny as all hell. Call me simple, but I prefer an interesting and compelling storyline to a contorted one that is boring and preachy.
I can agree with this. 😎

another good storyline i like is for Mass Effect
just cause of the openendedness[is that a word?]
theres so many different things that can happen, different people you can choose to kill or spare and all that can and will be transfered onto the next installment in the series[theres only gonna be three though, right?]

Neb is not gonna like you....

Neb? awebrow

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory

I find MGS to be convoluted, trite, and, at times, corny as all hell. Call me simple, but I prefer an interesting and compelling storyline to a contorted one that is boring and preachy. If I wanted that, I'd pick up a book by Kafka or Dostoyevsky.

Glad I'm not the only one...

MGS is meant to be corny... Kojima does not take it as seriously as you all think he does.

Granted I don't find it deserving of being called the greatest storyline ever but whatever.

Oh, and as for MGS' themes being unprecedented in storyline... That is a factually untrue statement.

Originally posted by NemeBro
MGS is meant to be corny... Kojima does not take it as seriously as you all think he does.

Are you sure about that? And if that is the case, then the delivery sux, imo. Honestly, the characters don't do enough things to relay the message to the players that most of the story is supposed to be taken as a joke. And in the MGS games, you can clearly tell when Kojima wants you to take somthin' lightly or at least to me.

Kojima is a Trolling God.

He dun't care about you or your feelings.

Originally posted by That ACDC Chick
Neb? awebrow

The owner of the sock 'Soma Bringer' (which is a pretty cool reference, granted). He is known to despise non-linear gameplay and player choice games. And in general pretty much all Western RPGs and Bioware games.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Are you sure about that? And if that is the case, then the delivery sux, imo. Honestly, the characters don't do enough things to relay the message to the players that most of the story is supposed to be taken as a joke. And in the MGS games, you can clearly tell when Kojima wants you to take somthin' lightly or at least to me.
?

You do realise one of the bosses is a fat guy on roller skates, right?

Everything from that to Snake's ambiguously gay relationship with Otacon, I do not see how anyone can take it so seriously. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
The owner of the sock 'Soma Bringer' (which is a pretty cool reference, granted). He is known to despise non-linear gameplay and player choice games. And in general pretty much all Western RPGs and Bioware games.

I've heard he/she has been making socks for a very long time now. Like 3 years something? Must be a very lonely person.

Or maybe an entire collective of people working to bring down the oppressive totalitarian KMC government under a single name?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Or maybe an entire collective of people working to bring down the oppressive totalitarian KMC government under a single name?

Yes, the voice of the oppressed and the permabanned must be heard.

Originally posted by Soma Bringer
And the "cookie cutter baddies" and their "cookie cutter monologues" that you cite are often the very mouthpieces with which Hideo Kojima explores these deep themes.

That is where you don't get my point. Games like Deus Ex have handled these concepts and with far less words. All those Big Boss clones? They don't amount to 10 minutes of exposition, unless you're just trying to make people roll their eyes.

MGS takes a plot that could be told over a single game and stretches it out to at least 5 games - with the addition of clones, people infected with the consciousness of clones and a prequel about the clone template. Deus Ex did all that and more in 2 games.

We don't need to know about what Liquid wanted or what BB was really about. An idea like the Patriots actually simplifies the mess that is global conflict.

The Splinter Cell universe depicts a more complex world simply by mirroring the real world, which is far more complicated in the areas of global politics than MGS and its Patriots apparently manipulating feuds.

MGS may depict a future world but it also simplifies it with its idealistic leanings.

And Neb, I asked you for a single sub plot you felt was compelling or especially well told, instead you list everything you think MGS addressed.

Originally posted by NemeBro
?

You do realise one of the bosses is a fat guy on roller skates, right?

Everything from that to Snake's ambiguously gay relationship with Otacon, I do not see how anyone can take it so seriously. 😬

That's what I mean, that is clearly funny and I feel like I'm supposed to laugh at that because I believe that Kojima's intention is to be humorous. At least the bit about Fat Man.

I don't take many aspects of the story seriously but I know that MGS's plot is not supposed to be one big joke. That's the problem. I find myself wonderin' alot, was that awkward moment on purpose

I guess at the end of the day, the fact is we look at the game at different points of view so you could be right. Basically, Kojima confuses me...

mgs1 deserves to be in the greatest storyline. it was extremely well executed, the wrest even though having their good moments and general themes can often be overdone or cheesy or needlessly convoluted.

i forgot to add shadow hearts, shin megaten and zone of the enders.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I've heard he/she has been making socks for a very long time now. Like 3 years something? Must be a very lonely person.

Times that number but 2-3 and yeaah, pretty much.

Originally posted by Allankles
And Neb, I asked you for a single sub plot you felt was compelling or especially well told, instead you list everything you think MGS addressed.

I was originally addressing the depth and complexity behind the story, which lies more in the manner in which the different components of the plot connect together and the intricities of the grand story it has to tell rather than isolated secondary plots, so your request was largely irrelevant to the point I was making, so I felt no need to respond to it.

And really, addressing aspects that I personally found compelling is largely pointless considering that it's a subjective matter that people won't necessarily agree on. Addressing its depth and complexity, which are some of the only real objective measures with which you can judge a storyline, is far more relevant to the topic.

That is where you don't get my point.

"And cookie cutter baddies giving cookie cutter monologues don't count."

What point were you supposed to be relaying other than the idea that the villains and their monologues belonged to a generic subset?

The villains of a story rarely if ever explore such deep themes in such detail as they do in the MGS games.

So your point was perfectly understood, it just wasn't a very good one.

Games like Deus Ex have handled these concepts and with far less words. All those Big Boss clones? They don't amount to 10 minutes of exposition, unless you're just trying to make people roll their eyes.

MGS takes a plot that could be told over a single game and stretches it out to at least 5 games - with the addition of clones, people infected with the consciousness of clones and a prequel about the clone template. Deus Ex did all that and more in 2 games.

Deus Ex didn't come anywhere near to exploring so many themes and concepts. Deus Ex explores a number of political themes in some detail as well as a prevalent theme relating to a conspiracy theory that forms the foundations for the plot of both of the games... and that's pretty much it.

It doesn't come close to MGS when you take into account the number of themes and the detail and scope with which they're explored, and it doesn't touch upon the deep philosophical themes that MGS delves into.

And sure, MGS has a plot that could be told in a much smaller amount of time, but unless you're attempting to argue that there's no merit whatsoever in spreading out the content of a story across a certain length so as to enhance the meaning and significance of the themes and content explored, and to balance the timing between which different pieces of information are presented to the player, and that diluting the content into as small a narrative as possible is objectively the only good way to tell a story, then we can move on.

We don't need to know about what Liquid wanted or what BB was really about.

Sure, we don't need to, but unless you're attempting to argue that there's no merit whatsoever in exploring details beyond what we absolutely need to know in a story, and that there's absolutely no merit whatsoever in fleshing out the mindsets of the characters and allowing for deeper exploration of the characters beyond what is absolutely necessary, then we can move on.

An idea like the Patriots actually simplifies the mess that is global conflict.

The Splinter Cell universe depicts a more complex world simply by mirroring the real world, which is far more complicated in the areas of global politics than MGS and its Patriots apparently manipulating feuds.

The fact that you would use the Splinter Cell series as an example of an especially complex story highlights the fact that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

The Splinter Cell series opens a window into the world of real life politics but it doesn't in any shape or form explore it with anywhere near the detail or scope of real world politics (the only stoies that do would be Suikoden II, III, V, and Xenogears to a small extent). It opens up vague glimpses into the political world to add context to the events of an extraordinarily simplistic story, and that's it.

And nobody argued that the politics themselves were heavily explored in MGS; rather the manipulation of soldiers by politicians and how it formed the basis for the concept of Outer Heaven. The politics played more of a backseat as far as the different themes the game explored go.

You also act as if the manner in which the Patriots controlled and regulated global affairs was left completely unexplained, when everything from its history to the technical specifications of the neural network that came to embody its will was explained in great detail.

MGS may depict a future world but it also simplifies it with its idealistic leanings.

Explain.