Not one of Shakespeare's works explored such a large number of themes with as much detail as the Metal Gear Solid saga did. They generally lacked the scope that a large saga of games like Metal Gear Solid possesses, and were far more valued for their writing than their storytelling merits.
Also, I know all I've really gone into is MGS's significant level of depth and complexity, but that isn't even touching on some if its greatest strengths, including its truly legendary voice acting, phenomenal music (in both its quality and implementation), excellent writing and dialogue, and a very strong emotive quality throughout the saga.
Originally posted by That ACDC Chick
and i care because......?
BECUASE INTERNETZ IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!! chair
Not one of Shakespeare's works explored such a large number of themes with as much detail as the Metal Gear Solid saga did. They generally lacked the scope that a large saga of games like Metal Gear Solid possesses, and were far more valued for their writing than their storytelling merits.
Well firstly MGS has longer to explore such themes than a single play by Shakespeare. Several of his plays played end to end though are not only more engaging and thought-provoking (heck, one is. Theres a reason they've survived and been studied for this long), but explore more relevent themes than Kojima could fit into a male catsuit.
Secondly, you couldn't be more wrong about Shakespeares storytelling merits.
Thirdly, if you're honestly arguing that MGS is better as a whole artistically, then, what the **** is wrong with you?
Originally posted by Soma Bringer
Explain.
Outerheaven is an idealistic nation, if you're trying to say MGS is complex you don't use Outerheaven. A world where soldiers are free of politics? Can't exist, any time a soldier goes off to war, he engages in politics, this is precisely why Politicians control soldiers, because they're willing and capable to deal with the messy reeling and dealing involved with geopolitical relatonships and the management of war.
The idea that the Patriots could control events on such a wide scale because of a specific kind of technology is idealizing the "One World Nation" concept. Basically it's the realization of a megalomaniac ideal.
When I talked about the Splinter cell universe I was talking about 3rd Echelon's relationship with the other international military operatives they come into contact with. The world of espionage there has real ramifications, it's not just about which mad man is going to shoot nukes or which person will be left standing to control things.
The fate of nations is at stake, and people have to worry about the potential political blowback. Fisher's objectives are made clear but that is the same for Snake, the difference is the consequnces are much more severe in SC with potential true world wars.
MGS makes everything possible with tech, simplifying the real consequneces of conflict. It's like comparing 300 (MGS) to Kingdom of Heaven or Troy (Splinter Cell). One has a serious handle on what war is all about (SC), the other has a comic or fantastic take on it, without the real hard realities (MGS).
Originally posted by Allankles
Outerheaven is an idealistic nation, if you're trying to say MGS is complex you don't use Outerheaven. A world where soldiers are free of politics? Can't exist, any time a soldier goes off to war, he engages in politics, this is precisely why Politicians control soldiers, because they're willing and capable to deal with the messy reeling and dealing involved with geopolitical relatonships and the management of war.
Allankles, what you appear to be addressing here is the issue of realism rather than complexity, and then using the two terms interchangeably when they're two entirely different matters.
Nobody ever claimed that MGS was supposed to be very realistic, as in many ways it isn't at all, and it's like that purposefully so. However, realism within a story isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, and suspension of disbelief prevents its necessity. Realism enhances believability, but believability in something that isn't in itself real isn't necessary to engage an individual in it. Realism can also stifle ambition, vision and creativity, so I'd argue that a storytelling approach that focuses too highly on realism is in itself a bad approach to storytelling
You're also judging the whole by just one of its parts ("Outerheaven is an idealistic nation, if you're trying to say MGS is complex you don't use Outerheaven."😉.
By "a nation without politics," what I meant was a nation free of the abuse and exploitation of soldiers by politicians. The soldiers would naturally still be used to carry out the political agenda of the nation in all military matters, that is after all their underlying role, but they would not be manipulated and kept in the dark by politicians. That was the concept behind Outer Heaven, which is in itself not an idealistic reality, but something very achievable.
The idea that the Patriots could control events on such a wide scale because of a specific kind of technology is idealizing the "One World Nation" concept. Basically it's the realization of a megalomaniac ideal.
The Patriots did not use "a specific kind of technology" to control global affairs, they used a combination of the Philosopher's Legacy, and their military and political influence to manipulate individuals, organisations and Governments from behind the scenes. It was only when Zero grew old and no longer had faith in humanity and that any given individual would be able to carry on his will that he had the neural network of A.I.s created; however these simply carried on Zero's will according to his plan and vision and design, which when implemented with the communication network and channels that Zero operated was able to effectively maintain the Patriot's control over the world. They did not effectively control the world, they simply carried out the design of a group that did.
When I talked about the Splinter cell universe I was talking about 3rd Echelon's relationship with the other international military operatives they come into contact with. The world of espionage there has real ramifications, it's not just about which mad man is going to shoot nukes or which person will be left standing to control things.The fate of nations is at stake, and people have to worry about the potential political blowback. Fisher's objectives are made clear but that is the same for Snake, the difference is the consequnces are much more severe in SC with potential true world wars.
Well if we go back to your original claim, it was that the Splinter Cell Universe is more complex than the Metal Gear Solid Universe, simply because it mirrors real world politics, which are more complicated than the politics seen in Metal Gear Solid. Not only is this again judging a whole by just one of its parts, but it implies that the manner in which the Splinter Cell Universe mirrors real world politics captures the complicated nature of them. Which it doesn't. That there are consequences on a political level for the covert actions of Sam Fisher does not capture the complicated nature of real world politics. Really, the Splinter Cell series was a terrible example to cite. You might as well have mentioned something like Halo.
Aside from that, there are real political ramifications explored in MGS; in MGS1, the terrorist incident and Solid Snake's mission are kept entirely secret to avoid a political and media crisis; in MGS3, the entire reason for sending Naked Snake to kill The Boss was to prevent an international incident and potential war with the Russians after Volgin used the US weapons The Boss had supplied him with against a Russian base.
Also, the protagonist's true objectives are rarely if ever made clear; in MGS1 Solid Snake was being manipulated and unknowingly secretly being used as a weapon against the terrorists via the FoxDie virus by killing them without actually damaging Metal Gear so that the US Government could take back and claim it as their own; in MGS2 Raiden's entire mission was simply a simulated recreation of the Shadow Moses incident conducted by the patriots, again without his knowing; in MGS3 Naked Snake is kept entirely in the dark regarding The Boss's true involvement and loyalties regarding the situation and that the US Government were simply abandoning her to prevent an international incident from occurring.
MGS makes everything possible with tech, simplifying the real consequneces of conflict. It's like comparing 300 (MGS) to Kingdom of Heaven or Troy (Splinter Cell). One has a serious handle on what war is all about (SC), the other has a comic or fantastic take on it, without the real hard realities (MGS). [/B]
Ignoring the exaggerated "everything", how would the advancements in technology simplify the real consequences of conflict? That requires further explanation. And one of MGS's primarily explored themes was the psychological and emotional trauma of war, and MGS4 paints a picture of a very dark, desolate world engulfed by the terrors of war. It's not without the real hard realities of war by any means.
Originally posted by Regnir Bamos
Really, the Splinter Cell series was a terrible example to cite. You might as well have mentioned something like Halo.
You weren't paying attention then, wasn't the first SC about the US stepping in to prevent human rights violations by Georgians against Azerbaijan neighbors?. Didn't the army have problems dealing with the aftermath of that war precisely because of Fisher's assassination of Nikoladze? Just because it doesn't have B-movie, cliche plot twists like the CIA controlled the Russian that seemingly manipulated Boss etc etc
Doesn't mean the politcal landscape in SC isn't tricky and volatile.
Originally posted by Regnir Bamos
Aside from that, there are real political ramifications explored in MGS; in MGS1, the terrorist incident and Solid Snake's mission are kept entirely secret to avoid a political and media crisis; in MGS3, the entire reason for sending Naked Snake to kill The Boss was to prevent an international incident and potential war with the Russians after Volgin used the US weapons The Boss had supplied him with against a Russian base.
How is Boss going rogue going to create political blowback? She is pretty much a merc at that point, and its because she's already been pinned as the fall guy. It would be like saying Fisher being declared rogue could start a war. There was no actual potential crisis because the Russians and the CIA were in on that little game.
As for the rest it's pretty much the same problem MGS has, it doesn't give a view of the world or the worlds conflicts everything takes place in the little world of cyborgs and A.I.'s Snake battles. SC gives a global perspective of what the political crisis means for everyone.
Originally posted by Regnir Bamos
Also, the protagonist's true objectives are rarely if ever made clear.
Actually they are made clear, disable Foxhound, kill Boss etc, it's just that Snake gets thrown into a lot of irritating plot twists, with bosses interrupting his missions and revelations getting thrown around.
Originally posted by Regnir Bamos
Ignoring the exaggerated "everything", how would the advancements in technology simplify the real consequences of conflict?
How? So and so was actually being mind controlled by the disembodied synthetic personality of a person who's dead, several times this happens in the series. Essentially removing the burden of plausibility from a plot twist, because we just had to have another plot twist.
Using clones is supposed to make things interesting, not eliminate tragedy all together by retconning a character's death. Where in all of this are the innocent civilians being represented? How is a guy like Liquid a sympathetic character?
These guys are either expensive cyborgs or expensive war machines, I'm not seeing human beings potentially losing their freedoms and nation if a rogue state brings war to them.
Have you ever played through Seoul in SC:Chaos Theory? With North Koreans storming over the city? You don't get that sense of potential loss (that war brings) with MGS, in that universe war is disembodied from its consequences.
1. Ever17: The Out of Infinity.
2. Phantom of Inferno.
3. Xenogears.
4. Xenosaga Trilogy.
5. Metal Gear Solid Series.
6. Kana: Little Sister.
7. Vagrant Story.
8. Final Fantasy Tactics.
9. Silent Hill 2.
10. Chrono Cross.
11. Baten Kaitos Duology.
12. The Longest Journey Duology.
13. Beyond Good and Evil.
14. Killer7.
15. Final Fantasy VII