The Strength Feat! Who can do what?

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
It's also been said in a comic that she's a cold blooded murderer. I guess that's true too.

Originally posted by Soljer
Why not? Wonder Woman is explicity stronger than Hercules.

Hercules held a planet? Wonder Woman could do so even easier.

And Superman, even easier than that.

Superman i belive, altho not under all writers. Hes done it sundipped and with the help of tech for it.

WW? Nah.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Not really, I'd just dispute there's an overwhelming consensus of Hercules being stronger.

The "general consensus", which in the case of Marvel Hercules holding the Earth comprises nearly all but you by my estimates, is that the feat is more boast than canon. Other than that I don't recall you posting any feat incredibly out of her realms, (although presumably you have some ready and waiting.) To match lifting half the Spectre albeit momentarily, helping to move celestial bodies in present day, halting heaven's chariot's descent, etc.

That and her being explicitly stated recurrently to be stronger than DC Hercules.

I dont even need to use that mythical feat. Watch:

- She needs bullshit and tricks (lasso, weapons, skills) to look equal over guys who we know are stronger than her. Like Superman.

- Herk never used any kind of weapons whatsoever against Hulk, and rarely used skills. And yet he has looked equal in combat with him.

- Her best feat alone is Island level.

- One of Herk`s best feats is going against Thor and the result of the armwrestling match generating planet moving force. (note as you can see that its not helping Thor. Its using his force against him like ASS Superman did with Samson and Atlas). Thats on panel.

- Both him and Thor closed down with a punch a dimensional door. She doesnt have something on that level.

- Even pre crisis when WW was tagged *always* stronger than DC Herc, she had a win against him and a loss.

- She needed help to move briefly the Earth before Kyle stepped in. She stated Herc did it by his lonesome briefly.

- She failed to deal with the Heaven Chariot. Even with MM`s help he stated that they wer falling. Hum?

So tecnically, outside the mantra that she is stronger than DC Herc, what do you have that places her above his Marvel counterpart?

I don't know the limits, but i know theses facts :

- Superman can move a moon, at least.

- Wonder woman lift a skyscraper.

- Thor can't lift the Midgard Serpent (it's a mythos fact : He can just lift a ring of the snake). He can't destroy a planet by pure strength (but can with Mjolnir).
I know there is a comic where the Marvel's Thor have this adventure, but i don't remember if he lift the serpent in this comic.

- The Marvel's Hercules can lift Manhattan. The mythos can lift a planet, then at least a moon.

- DC's Captain Marvel has the strengh of the DC's Hercules. What can this hercules do ?

For the Black Hole, remember it's just a theory. The black hole you know CAN'T exist. It's just a press thing. It's highly probable black holes can't exist at all (because the conservation of the rotational movement, that no theory manages to take into account completely: If they try, they finish systematically by the explosion of the black hole at the time when it is formed). But, you see, without the black hole, it's another biggest theory that has a problem, then... 😉 Ah, the politic in science 😮

Originally posted by Soljer
Why not? Wonder Woman is explicity stronger than Hercules.

Hercules held a planet? Wonder Woman could do so even easier.

And Superman, even easier than that.

I doubt that...

No she couldn't, she and Superman have had their chance and with the help from MM they succeeded in pulling earth.

Superman's greatest feat, "pulling the endless wheels of meghedon" is pure speculation, I'm positive Hercules could have done the same.

Originally posted by DDurand
I don't know the limits, but i know theses facts :

- Superman can move a moon, at least.

- Wonder woman lift a skyscraper.

- Thor can't lift the Midgard Serpent (it's a mythos fact : He can just lift a ring of the snake). He can't destroy a planet by pure strength (but can with Mjolnir).
I know there is a comic where the Marvel's Thor have this adventure, but i don't remember if he lift the serpent in this comic.

- The Marvel's Hercules can lift Manhattan. The mythos can lift a planet, then at least a moon.

- DC's Captain Marvel has the strengh of the DC's Hercules. What can this hercules do ?

For the Black Hole, remember it's just a theory. The black hole you know CAN'T exist. It's just a press thing. It's highly probable black holes can't exist at all (because the conservation of the rotational movement, that no theory manages to take into account completely: If they try, they finish systematically by the explosion of the black hole at the time when it is formed). But, you see, without the black hole, it's another biggest theory that has a problem, then... 😉 Ah, the politic in science 😮

Thor has actually fished the midgard serpent away while it was resisting. Not only is fishing something more difficult that lifting something, but the serpent was resisting his pull making they feat all the more impressive.

The Thor lift of the Midgard Serpent happened on panel. It wasent the mythical feat.

WW can lift more than a skycraper. She always looked equalish in comparation with DC Hercules (post crisis) who on panel was at least an Island mover. She also held one island on panel as well.

Since this one shows up really in a few, heres a figth between DC Hercules and an enraged out of control WW that happened during pre crisis.

http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ww2590148mv.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ww2590157ui.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ww2590160di.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ww2590178in.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ww2590186bu.jpg

Thanks to Imperial for the trouble of getting the scans.

Now to the debate and without the heat in my blood boiling (laugth, its a joke). WW is obviously top tier, no doubts. Shes not that weaker compared with the likes of Superman. No doubt. But both Thor and Herc are that closer than she is. They both have at higher levels demostrated a sheer strength that she lacks examples of. And both do physically speaking better than she does against other top tiers. I mean, sure Thor always uses the hammer. But he at least can still say he locked arms against Hercules and Hulk and matched them.

When was the last time WW locked with just strength with Superman without anything else at all, and looked equal?

I don't think fishing is more difficult than lifting. Because when you fish (that's the word ?), water help you.

In my young time, my father and me often go fishing. With nets (not really net, but i don't know the word in english : It's a metal circle with a net in the middle). Well, animals was a LOT more hard to pull in the air than in the water.

Because, you know, in the water you just have to fight the strength of the animal (and snakes don't have fins to strongly press on water), whereas out of water you must fight against the weight of an animal which struggles...

@ Olympian.
Thank (and for the scans, too). But i think the Marvel's Midgar serpent is really little (on panels, at least). The mythos Jomungander is really bigger.

bump

Superman could, he did all of those feats listed already (well, the blackhole feat he had help after a while by GL).

Originally posted by olympian
- She needs bullshit and tricks (lasso, weapons, skills) to look equal over guys who we know are stronger than her. Like Superman.

Originally posted by olympian
- Herk never used any kind of weapons whatsoever against Hulk, and rarely used skills. And yet he has looked equal in combat with him.

Originally posted by olympian
- Her best feat alone is Island level.

Originally posted by olympian
- One of Herk`s best feats is going against Thor and the result of the armwrestling match generating planet moving force. (note as you can see that its not helping Thor. Its using his force against him like ASS Superman did with Samson and Atlas). Thats on panel.

Originally posted by olympian
- Both him and Thor closed down with a punch a dimensional door. She doesnt have something on that level.

Originally posted by olympian
- She needed help to move briefly the Earth before Kyle stepped in. She stated Herc did it by his lonesome briefly.

Originally posted by olympian
- She failed to deal with the Heaven Chariot. Even with MM`s help he stated that they wer falling. Hum?

Originally posted by olympian
So tecnically, outside the mantra that she is stronger than DC Herc, what do you have that places her above his Marvel counterpart?

Originally posted by long pig
But it's more probable than the energy thing(you're talking about Juggs, right?). He could have simply used magic to create a rift or worm hole. But punching energy into non-existance is staggeringly stupid.

Hulk also was strong enough to bring matter and anti-matter together. You'd have to be able to bench-press a universe to do that.

hulk.

when tottaly enraged, he has been known to thunder clap whole galaxies, and catch mountains wieghing over billions of tons.

i'd say hulk.

as for planet destruction and orbit moving, superman and lobo.

as for holding black holes, darkseid, and hulk.

hulk has also been known to punch time itself.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'd like to see a comic pit Hercules against Superman. And in the event of that happening, Hercules being shown as his equal in a slugfest.
Because Hulk is as fast as Superman? Or as intelligent as Superman? Or as skilled as Superman? That one would need to apply skills to defeat him?
She has multiple other feats that depict her strength as in the same category as the likes of Superman.
That is impressive, but do they actually depict said planet moving force? Or do they simply narratively state it?
Lifting the weight of eternity isn't on that level?
Again I'd like to see Hercules move celestial bodies in present day. Or contribute to moving celestial bodies. But I find that unlikely.
Holding up a chariot the size of a San Francisco probably trumps dragging Manhattan, but meh.
I don't recall saying I place her above. I just dispute some overwhelming consensus that he is above. I see no clear advantage either way. I didn't really ask for nitpicking at WW's feats (which was the majority of your post), I asked for things from Hercules that would be incredibly beyond her realms, and you've really provided nothing that would be totally out of character for her to perform that I can see.

1- He already locked arms and looked equal with the likes of Thor and sometimes Hulk. Definatly Superman range. When did WW did that?

2- No. Hes at least as strong. And can get stronger. As evidenced by better strength feats. Because its strength we are discussing here.

3- Same class yes. Same exact placing, no. Thats what i said above.

4- Ever saw the ASS armwrestling match with Samson and Atlas? It was generating island shaking strength and we see the effects around. See this one? Not only it states they are doing it, it also destroyes the plateau they are sitting on and we see the side effects on the weather.

5- We dont know how much the Spectre weigthed. Like we dont know how much the Midgard Serpent weigths. The difference between both is that we saw the whole fishing the worm having side effects in the world. The Specter one is more speculative. But again where weigth is concerned, nothing can be said about either.

6- Unlikely. He cant fly. But still has better strength raw feats as far as i can see. Its not like hes a whole class up, just a bit above. So far.

7- I cant tell wich is bigger, i dont live in the U.S. But one made it and the other stated it was failing.

8- Nothing? Planet shaking strength and punching dimensional doors. She still lacks these, im afraid. And locking arms strengthwise wich is something CM for example has done. Thus why hes considered SM`s equal by many in that department.

About you not stating she was above, it was the impression i got. Again its only where strength is concerned, in a standart match i give her the sligth majority because she has more advantages and usually makes use of it.

1 & 2. You compared WW using skill against Superman, Hercules not using it against Hulk. To which I responded that the situations are different.

Superman has a speed advantage, strength advantage, and versatility advantage over Wonder Woman. Skill is her equalizer, yes, but if she didn't have, while not equal, comparable strength and comparable speed her skill would mean absolutely nothing. Therefore your point about how her fights with Superman are depicted are moot.

Hulk isn't as strong as Superman at base level. He doesn't have a huge amount of intelligence, nor Superman's versatility, nor speed, nor even skill. He has strength. He has durability. He is one dimensional. I wouldn't expect a large amount of skill to be depicted in fights with the Hulk with someone of comparable strength.

3. I don't consider her the same exact placing. But then I don't consider Hercules there either. Superman is stronger than both.

4. Then that would be a very good feat. But see 8.

5. They did lift the Spectre if momentarily. It states he was almost too much for them. I'd imagine he was heavy.

6. Things like towing planets aren't strength feats? What else does one define them as if not strength feats? They are meant by writers to depict characters' strength. Not their ability to fly. Or their speed.

7. San Francisco is about 2.5 times larger than Manhattan or thereabouts. I'm not sure about the mechanics of it but lifting something that's falling, seems like it would be more difficult than pulling something. But who knows.

8. I wouldn't go "What the f'uck, Wonder Woman can't do that." if I saw it happen in a comic. 😬

I still see neither as clearly stronger. Both are strong. But any difference to me seems negligible. And I would give her more than a slight majority in a standard match, speed, skill and weaponry being the key, regardless of who is stronger. But then I don't know how you're defining slight majority.

1- I compared both physical records against other top tiers. Hulk is an example. Thor is another. So at one side you have Herc locking arms with the likes of him in a regular manner. And on another WW usually not doing it. If ever.

2- Your point about Superman having other powers doesnt matter here. We are discussing strength. Not powerset. CM has other powers and so does Superman and both have locked arms. Lobo has done it and hes more one dimensional than WW is. Mon-El has done it. The main question should be when did WW did it.

Examples of Wonder Woman locking arms only with the likes of CM, Superman, Black Adam, Lobo. You have any?

3- Going by the showings of both, he is that close in that category by comparation with her because hes simply stronger.

4- It sure is. But look here since you dont have to go down at 8. Where did she do something at that level on her own/against someone? Know any example?

5- The main problem with that feat is that while it does say it was nearly much, we cant quantify it because we dont know how heavy it was other than it was "heavy". Wich is why i dont use the Midgard Serpent of Thor for quotes such as " he fished something heavier than Earth" when no weigth was ever given.

6- When did i said it wasent? But who looks best? A guy that generates that kind of force against an opponent or one that does it with the backup of others? She needs that kind of direct contest in her record.

7- I cant tell. It only looks more impressive for me when one did it alone and made it while another was failing. Then again, she can do island shaking force as well, so its not this particular level that brings her down. Its the other higher ones.

8- Sligth majority= 6/7 out of 10. She would more if (just like Superman and a bunch of others) they actually used theyr speed in combat as well/much as they fly. But they dont. Futhermore, this particular opponent also happens to be skilled in some of the arts she is.

Originally posted by olympian
1- I compared both physical records against other top tiers. Hulk is an example. Thor is another. So at one side you have Herc locking arms with the likes of him in a regular manner. And on another WW usually not doing it. If ever.

2- Your point about Superman having other powers doesnt matter here. We are discussing strength. Not powerset. CM has other powers and so does Superman and both have locked arms. Lobo has done it and hes more one dimensional than WW is. Mon-El has done it. The main question should be when did WW did it.

Examples of Wonder Woman locking arms only with the likes of CM, Superman, Black Adam, Lobo. You have any?

Originally posted by olympian
3- Going by the showings of both, he is that close in that category by comparation with her because hes simply stronger.

Originally posted by olympian
4- It sure is. But look here since you dont have to go down at 8. Where did she do something at that level on her own/against someone? Know any example?

Originally posted by olympian
5- The main problem with that feat is that while it does say it was nearly much, we cant quantify it because we dont know how heavy it was other than it was "heavy". Wich is why i dont use the Midgard Serpent of Thor for quotes such as " he fished something heavier than Earth" when no weigth was ever given.

Originally posted by olympian
6- When did i said it wasent? But who looks best? A guy that generates that kind of force against an opponent or one that does it with the backup of others? She needs that kind of direct contest in her record.

Originally posted by olympian
8- Sligth majority= 6/7 out of 10. She would more if (just like Superman and a bunch of others) they actually used theyr speed in combat as well/much as they fly. But they dont. Futhermore, this particular opponent also happens to be skilled in some of the arts she is.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm not sure what you mean by "locked arms". They fight and writers and artists depict the fight how they think it should occur. WW is supposed to be skilled, and thus is depicted using skill. Hercules is also supposed to be skilled, but then is apparently not depicted as so. While I see how one could infer strength from this, I don't see why one should infer strength from this.
That is of course one opinion. I'm still not seeing him dwarfing her strength to the extent that I'd separate them. But since we're going around in circles I'm happy to agree to disagree.
Things like helping to tow celestial bodies, or stopping the Spectre's fall. So no if she did something like that I wouldn't go "wtf".
It's an ambiguous feat but it's still (meant to be) an impressive one, akin to moving moons etc.
Frankly I don't see that happening, she's not going to get feats that would put her too close to the S-shield. Even if one doesn't assume an equal sharing of weight moved, they're still intended to be feats of strength for all involved.
The plot device lasso and her speed should give her an at least 7/10 majority.

1- Allow me to specify the term. "Locking arms" is a direct contest of strength only. An armwrestle match for example. A pure slugfest is another (DD vs Superman in theyr first figth was mainly this). CM for all the contriversal issues related with DC Hercules and WW has done this with Superman. Marvel Hercules has done it with Hulk and Thor. Thor has done it with Hulk, BrB, etc.

A standart match is usually what you have avaiable (gear, powerset, skills) to use. Now, since we are discussing the category of strength and not powerset (wich she is definatly above) id like to see examples of her physically showing an equal slug measure against the likes of Superman, CM, etc in a regular manner. Way i see it, Herc has those. But WW so far doesnt seem to do as well in those direct matchups without recurring to her gear. And with this i mean using gear while the opponent doesnt.

2- He doesnt "dwarf" her. In order to be so he would have to be way above. Hes not. Hes above nonetheless.
3- The moon resisted the fall of the Spectre..ok i couldnt resist 😛

Her main *problem* where strength is discussed its that all her major lifting/moving feats are done with backup. She doesnt have a single example where a contest against another big gun is having side effects such as others examples showed us. And especially and *this* point is the most revelant..on her own.

4- It sure gets the majority but more than that its maybe something it wont happen. The lasso tends to be a late resource and the speed she uses its mainly for flying. Like other fliers she shares the tendency of getting close. Im talking in character anyway. Like usual.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
1 & 2. You compared WW using skill against Superman, Hercules not using it against Hulk. To which I responded that the situations are different.

Superman has a speed advantage, strength advantage, and versatility advantage over Wonder Woman. Skill is her equalizer, yes, but if she didn't have, while not equal, comparable strength and comparable speed her skill would mean absolutely nothing. Therefore your point about how her fights with Superman are depicted are moot.

Hulk isn't as strong as Superman at base level. He doesn't have a huge amount of intelligence, nor Superman's versatility, nor speed, nor even skill. He has strength. He has durability. He is one dimensional. I wouldn't expect a large amount of skill to be depicted in fights with the Hulk with someone of comparable strength.

3. I don't consider her the same exact placing. But then I don't consider Hercules there either. Superman is stronger than both.

4. Then that would be a very good feat. But see 8.

5. They did lift the Spectre if momentarily. It states he was almost too much for them. I'd imagine he was heavy.

6. Things like towing planets aren't strength feats? What else does one define them as if not strength feats? They are meant by writers to depict characters' strength. Not their ability to fly. Or their speed.

7. San Francisco is about 2.5 times larger than Manhattan or thereabouts. I'm not sure about the mechanics of it but lifting something that's falling, seems like it would be more difficult than pulling something. But who knows.

8. I wouldn't go "What the f'uck, Wonder Woman can't do that." if I saw it happen in a comic. 😬

I still see neither as clearly stronger. Both are strong. But any difference to me seems negligible. And I would give her more than a slight majority in a standard match, speed, skill and weaponry being the key, regardless of who is stronger. But then I don't know how you're defining slight majority.

You refer to versatility? Hulk's countless strength and regenerative abilities are all thats required. Superman's powers couldn't stop him
what breathing him into an ice cube, or trying to fry his bran, or breath him away? what about speed? you think speedblitz attacks are really gonna stop Hulk in his most savage form? Please dude, stop riding Big Blue's cape.

Supes has a better chance of stopping Hulk than vice-versa. See Hulk can't hurt what he can't touch. and speed would make it seem like months were passing to Supes before Hulk was remotely close to hitting Supes.

I dont know if you noticed. But Superman isent written like that at all..