Originally posted by Grimm22
Turns out according to the latest Wizard, that Cap surrenedered because he saw that he wasn't going to make the registration go away by throwing punches in the battlefieldNow he's going to be throwing punches in the court room! 😱
Get ready for...
CAPTAIN AMERICA: ATTORNEY AT LAW!
"You think this letter on my head stands for appeal!" 😆
😆 😂 😆 😂
Whoa! One of Grimm's jokes was funny! I'm astonished.
Very nice, though.
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/003767985.cfm?page=1
Uhhhh...just found out clone Thor is returning...in the Thor series
20. GOLIATH: R.I.P.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A clone of Thor created by Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Hank Pym went berserk during a skirmish, killing veteran hero Bill Foster, aka Goliath. In the final battle, Hercules appeared to destroy the clone.
Brevoort: “We saw some fallout from Goliath’s death already in Black Panther, we’ll see more in New Warriors and ‘World War Hulk’ of all places. The Thor clone was in pretty sorry shape at the end of Civil War, but he will be back in the new Thor series.”
Just read this in Wikipedia.
I do not know how accurate or if this has been already posted but gives some revealing info on the upcoming Fallen Son series:
Spoiler:
In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.
All I can say is WoW....
Originally posted by alra121
Just read this in Wikipedia.I do not know how accurate or if this has been already posted but gives some revealing info on the upcoming Fallen Son series:
Spoiler:
In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.All I can say is WoW....
Appears to die?
I like Cap, but I honestly wouldn't mind if they killed him off....
But I'd have MUCH RATHER seen him die at Tony's hands. To be a martyr. Give us a climactic ending.
Crossbones is a GREAT and CLASSIC Cap villain....but seeing Steve Rogers lose his life to one of his closest friends would have been much more moving.
Though, we all know Cap'll wake up in a Red Skull facility or some shit. He isn't dead. 🙄
Originally posted by Soljer
Appears to die?I like Cap, but I honestly wouldn't mind if they killed him off....
But I'd have MUCH RATHER seen him die at Tony's hands. To be a martyr. Give us a climactic ending.
Crossbones is a GREAT and CLASSIC Cap villain....but seeing Steve Rogers lose his life to one of his closest friends would have been much more moving.
Though, we all know Cap'll wake up in a Red Skull facility or some shit. He isn't dead. 🙄
If Tony were to kill Cap and Cap became a martyr it would give the impression that the anti-regs were right.
Originally posted by alra121
Just read this in Wikipedia.I do not know how accurate or if this has been already posted but gives some revealing info on the upcoming Fallen Son series:
Spoiler:
In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.All I can say is WoW....
Honestly, I've read a lot of crap on wikipedia lately so I wouldn't take that at face value. Prior to CW 7 there was a supposed spoiler that said Cap and a bunch of civilians got kill cause Iron Man's repulsors just went off or something like that.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if you misunderstood me I can understand why, but really and truly my point was get-up-off-your-ass-is-right. This post is in response to both marvelprince and inamalist because maybe I did not make my stance clear (mainly to inamalist).
Wow, thank you very much. I totally missed what you were saying. I really like your argument, its like the most extreme example of personal responsibility, and on a lot of points we agree 100%. There are still a couple of things I would contend, but its a really valid and thought out point.
Originally posted by Alfheim
This is the thing you say that you dont have a problem with superheroes protecting people, but when you say that "nobody asked to be protected" and imply its not obvious that they need to be protected it sounds very ungrateful.My main point is this..... the reason why superheroes are unaccountable is not their fault, its the fault of the public because they are not doing the jobs that the superheroes are. The weak and the elderly have an excuse but most of the public do not especially since there are many superheroes without superpowers.
If the public had got behined Spiderman when he was fighting crime instead of criticsing him all the time maybe this would not have happened. If the public hadnt sat on their fat arses while The Avengers save the earth yet again, earth would have not been in this situation.
I can't disagree with any of this. I'll get to this in more depth in a second, but I certainly don't thin the heroes are responsible for the fact that they are expected by society to act irresponsibly, we would be completely to blame for that.
I think our major point of contention is going to come down to how easy it is for people to become heroes, and then what, if anything that means for the individual.
The way I see it, becoming a superhero in the MU is a lot like amassing stupid amounts of wealth in the real world. Sure, anyone can move from lower class to upper class on their own hard work and determination, but there are certainly people who will never, no matter how hard they try, have the opportunity to amass over 100 million dollars. So yes, if you are a normal person, you can work your ass off and make 300 000 a year, putting your means well above your needs, that might be like me being a trained marksman or some high level thug in the MU. I don't think every normal person in the MU would be born with the opportunity to become a hero. This is a really strange point, seeing as I am talking about non existent hypothetical fictional characters, but there really isn't some sure fire way to becoming a hero in comicdom. How many "super human martial artists" that have "never been beaten" and have been "training since the day they were born" has someone like Iron Fist or Shang Chi beat up? Those are basically the pinnacles of what non hero humans in the MU can perform. Sort of an aside, the only "humans" in the MU who can perform stunts like Punisher or Hawkeye are already heroes. Citizens never are able to protect themselves from the types thugs that these "peak humans" swat away like flies. Honestly, I don't think peak human has anything to do with human.
The other way the analogy between heroes and the wealthy is effective is when it comes to rights and the law. In many ways, extremely wealthy individuals have lots of the characteristics as super powered individuals, the biggest in this is the amount of power and influence they control. Now, even though I am not rich, society has determined that these people must be accountable to me. So, the people who own wal-mart can't just raise an army and oppress people even though they have the power to. Now, pretend that instead of raising an army, Walmart just started training and arming civilians and putting them into the street to enforce their bidding. Even if that bidding is in my best interests, it is being done without my consent and without my ability to hold the person doing it accountable.
Heroes enforce morality, not the law. It is a direct hypocrisy for a hero to fight crime while breaking it, regardless of the outcome. The end does not justify the means.
Originally posted by Alfheim
The superheroes are blameless for not being accountable because nobody is helping them.
Agreed
At the same time, I would argue this a little differently. If we remove the fact that "superhero comics" is a genre with very set devices and themes, we can look at the MU for a sort of legal tradition with regards to heroes. Basically, nobody has ever told Iron Man that he has to follow the law.
Because there WAS never any government action against heroes, it is ridiculous at this point to step in with something as absurd as the registration act. I think if you go back to the early pages of this thread you can see in detail why I then (and still do) oppose the registration. And no, its not because of freedom for heroes.
Originally posted by Alfheim
I could add some further points but im too tired, but to summarise...I really do not like the way that Sally spoke to Cap. You can see she did not appreciate all the help that Cap has done for the public "bully for you". The thing that gets me about the press is that often it seems that they are not looking for the truth but they are looking to make a name for themselves or boost ratings. A perfect example is what happened to the model Kate Moss , the press decided to pick on her for taking drugs when many of the reporters having a go at her were taking drugs themselves.To say that Sally was implying that Cap was out of touch was just part of what was going on. If you analysis further what Sally siad you can get into a glimpse of why earth got into a situation where people relied on superheroes. Sally mentioned that America was about Paris Hilton, sceheming your way to the top and that Americans dont respect teachers.
I agree with everything you have said here, especially that point on kate moss, I will have to use that line somewhere 😄 😆
Ya, please don't mistake what I am saying for anything that has been addressed in the Civil War arc, my views on this are less poster boy then "Ben" or "Sally"
Originally posted by Alfheim
Now....superheroes are not perfect but the fact that they have decided to risk life and limb while nobody else is doing it show that they have in general better moral values than your average civilian. If America was not about scheming your way to the top and they respected teachers maybe they would have been more sympathetic to heroes and given them support instead of them moaning about them not being accountable.
I don't see why having accountable heroes would make them less able to protect people?
I'm sure you have read Punisher kills the marvel universe. The guys that hire him, that were all just "bystanders" when heroes attacked, those are the people I am concerned about. I still want the Avengers to be able to stop Galactus, I just don't want the Thing throwing buses that happen to sill have old ladies on them. Or if he does, he should be in a court of law (this thing is a bad example, as his identity is public knowledge already).
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
It's been confirmed 🙁
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/DDream/Cap25.html
Originally posted by Grimm22
I hate you Marvel! I hate you!
You thank God they didn't let Bendis write this shit. If anyone can do this justice it's Ed Brubaker.
I would be ok with this if the following things happen.
1) Punisher collects the mask, takes up the role and besmirches the name by murdering people.
2) Winter Soldier hears of the besmirchitch by Punisher, tracks Frank down. A fight ensues.
3) Winter Soldier kicks his ass and takes the mantle of Captain America, Bucky FTW.
Well if you guys look up there were a poster who saw somthing on wiki:
Originally posted by alra121
Just read this in Wikipedia.I do not know how accurate or if this has been already posted but gives some revealing info on the upcoming Fallen Son series:
Spoiler:
In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.All I can say is WoW....
Which I did shoot down but look like his info was right.
I'm so frickin glad he didn't die in CW though, or worse by the hand of a pro-reg hero.
Originally posted by "V"
You thank God they didn't let Bendis write this shit. If anyone can do this justice it's Ed Brubaker.I would be ok with this if the following things happen.
1) Punisher collects the mask, takes up the role and besmirches the name by murdering people.
2) Winter Soldier hears of the besmirchitch by Punisher, tracks Frank down. A fight ensues.
3) Winter Soldier kicks his ass and takes the mantle of Captain America, Bucky FTW.
Bullcrap
Didn't you ever read the What if? Where Cap and Bucky never were frozen
Bucky takes over as Cap, but in the end he tells Cap before he dies that there is really only one Captain America