Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You do realize you are hurting your own case.
No, I only realize how you don't address any points and continue to dance around the debate.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
this entire argument you present no where shows that that IG was weaker. It only shows that the Impossible man lacked the intelligence to correctly use the IG. you lose.
That's your speculation, the issue never questioned the IM's intelligence, and his power was speculated on by Surfer who said he could destroy a Galaxy.
Don't tell me that if Pip the Troll went bananas with Cosmic Containment Units, and was wishing himself anything he wanted, that IM wouldn't know how to do that.
At most, based on the Surfer's speculation, the IM could destroy a Galaxy.
Based on Fact, the IM couldn't even create a single Planet.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Also, the reason Eternity wanted the IG is the same, It was a threat to his sovereingty. If it wasn't then why would big G want to hurry and get it out of the hands of the Populan if it was so weak?
Eternity was coming to get them because the Eternity of that Universe (which is NOT 616) wants them for himself.
If IM was such a threat, Eternity could pop up infront of IM at any time in any place, are you kiddin?
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I just love the way you can use subjective scans to prove your point.
I just love how you debate issues without reviewing them.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The same guantlet shows The Imp man destroying a solarsystem by accident with a stray thought
This is now a lie,
cause I already corrected you before, and here you are still claiming that IM destroyed a Solar System, when IM didn't even destroy a Planet. 😆
Originally posted by Mr MasterThats great!
Go ahead and PROVE it dogs, don't just come out your face without a shred of evidence, expecting others to take your word on it.In The Impossible Man's case it's an extremely WEAKER version of the IG
Here Impossible Man RUNS away from the Cosmics with the Infinity Gauntlet...Surfer even warns him about Eternity....
Again...this really demonstrates how weak this OTHER Infinity Gauntlet is.
Here Impossible Man makes a deal with Galactus to help him Re-create his home world...and Silver Surfer is worried because Eternity is coming...who will crush Impossible Man and his Gauntlet.
Here after Galactus Re-created Impossible Man's world... IM. actually bargained the Gauntlet for this.....because he couldn't even Re-create a Planet.
What comic(s) are those scans from Mr M?
Originally posted by Mordum
Yeah thats what it seems like. Its like giving a child a machine gun...he wont know how to kill as many people as an older person.
And yet the Surfer Surfer (an older person) wasn't even noticed by Eternity when he acquired the Infinity Gauntlet in that Alternate Universe. (a What If, just like IM)
Infact, Eternity wasn't even mentioned once, in the entire book.
Originally posted by Mr Master
No, I only realize how you don't address any points and continue to dance around the debate.That's your speculation, the issue never questioned the IM's intelligence, and his power was speculated on by Surfer who said he could destroy a Galaxy.
Don't tell me that if Pip the Troll went bananas with Cosmic Containment Units, and was wishing himself anything he wanted, that IM wouldn't know how to do that.
At most, based on the Surfer's speculation, the IM could destroy a Galaxy.
Based on Fact, the IM couldn't even create a single Planet.
Eternity was coming to get them because the Eternity of that Universe (which is NOT 616) wants them for himself.
If IM was such a threat, Eternity could pop up infront of IM at any time in any place, are you kiddin?
I just love how you debate issues without reviewing them.
This is now a lie,
cause I already corrected you before, and here you are still claiming that IM destroyed a Solar System, when IM didn't even destroy a Planet. 😆
Mr. Master you are such a sham. you used the very same argument against me a while ago that the Populan could only destroy a solar system. That is where I get the reference from. You are like a lawyer. you know the truth but with hold it just so you look good. fake and phony and only intersted in winning the argument, not presenting the truth. only intersted in your opinion. You are saying I have no proof that the Populan was dumb, but you have no proof at all that the Ig was weaker. Yet you give subjective review and call it fact becuz your the"master". We dont' knwo if the Ig was weaker of if the Populan was too dumb to use it correctly. Given the orginal story, that this one spun out of, and is in fact an alternate time line of the same IG story, one would have to surmise that the most obvious is that the IMp didn't know how to use the IG.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Mr. Master you are such a sham.
If this is the end result of your responses, we're done.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
you used the very same argument against me a while ago that the Populan could only destroy a solar system. That is where I get the reference from.
You should have payed attention then, cause I never said he did destroy a Galaxy, I always said Surfer SAID he could.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You are like a lawyer. you know the truth but with hold it just so you look good. fake and phony and only intersted in winning the argument, not presenting the truth. only intersted in your opinion.
blahblah
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You are saying I have no proof that the Populan was dumb, but you have no proof at all that the Ig was weaker.
There is no proof that IM was dumb.
There is proof that IM's IG was weaker than the 616 IG.
IM's IG couldn't even create a single Planet.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yet you give subjective review and call it fact becuz your the"master".
That's only you swinging on my nuts, cause nobody else is making a fuss of my screen name, your the one advertising my name on thread titles, I didn't think it deserved a response.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
We dont' knwo if the Ig was weaker of if the Populan was too dumb to use it correctly. Given the orginal story, that this one spun out of, and is in fact an alternate time line of the same IG story, one would have to surmise that the most obvious is that the IMp didn't know how to use the IG.
That would be your summation,
On Panel the IG couldn't create a single Planet, end of story.
And Surfer's IG wasn't even noticed by Eternity, not even noticed when Surfer cried out in an empty bravado he was going to remake the Universe.
Originally posted by Mr Master
If this is the end result of your responses, we're done.You should have payed attention then, cause I never said he did destroy a Galaxy, I always said Surfer SAID he could.
blahblah
There is no proof that IM was dumb.
There is proof that IM's IG was weaker than the 616 IG.
IM's IG couldn't even create a single Planet.
That's only you swinging on my nuts, cause nobody else is making a fuss of my screen name, your the one advertising my name on thread titles, I didn't think it deserved a response.
That would be your summation,
On Panel the IG couldn't create a single Planet, end of story.
And Surfer's IG wasn't even noticed by Eternity, not even noticed when Surfer cried out in an empty bravado he was going to remake the Universe.
Now prove that the Imp man was smart enough to create a plante and couldn't becuz the IG was weaker.Cuz right now all your doing is trying to force your opinion with no proof at all. Your not proving that the populan was smart enough to create a planet. You have no proof. To the contrary, the populan is shown as a child with a child's mind. This lend credance to my proposal that mr imp didn't know how to use the IG. What the hell would that Realities eternity want with an Ig that can't even create a planet huh? Your argument doesn't hold water. And in that scan that you put up, The IMP man did destroy a solar system. It showed it in the far distance of the scan.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Now prove that the Imp man was smart enough to create a plante and couldn't becuz the IG was weaker.Cuz right now all your doing is trying to force your opinion with no proof at all. Your not proving that the populan was smart enough to create a planet. You have no proof. To the contrary, the populan is shown as a child with a child's mind. This lend credance to my proposal that mr imp didn't know how to use the IG.
firefirefireph
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
What the hell would that Realities eternity want with an Ig that can't even create a planet huh? Your argument doesn't hold water.
Go ask the Writers, the reasons Eternity wanted the IG are never explained.
All we have is the IM's abilities and capabilities depicted and mentioned in the book, and according to the book, IM could potentially destroy a Solar System, Surfer said he could but IM never did.
And IM not being able to create a Planet.
IM trapped Galactus, that was impressive, created an imaginary Zen-La for Surfer,
and created a real Planet with Galactus's help.
That's it, oh, and IM evading Eternity through out the issue.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And in that scan that you put up, The IMP man did destroy a solar system. It showed it in the far distance of the scan.
😆
I really wonder where you got this from.
[QUOTE=7983290]Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]firefirefireph
Go ask the Writers, the reasons Eternity wanted the IG are never explained.
All we have is the IM's abilities and capabilities depicted and mentioned in the book, and according to the book, IM could potentially destroy a Galaxy, Surfer said he could but IM never did.
And IM not being able to create a Planet.
IM trapped Galactus, that was impressive, created an imaginary Zen-La for Surfer,
and created a real Planet with Galactus's help.
That's it, oh, and IM running for his life from Eternity through out the issue.
😆
When it's something you can't explain, it's go ask the writers. Every thing you mention as part of the Imp man doing with the guantlet he's done to a lessor degree with his own powers. So that is not showing me that he had the intelligence to create a planet. He's ran from people before using his own pop up powers. So it is feasable for him to run from eternity using the guantlet. He does imaginary pranks all the time. It's feasable for him to create an illusion. And he pretends to be other beings all the time. So him trapping the big is nothing out of his ordinary intelligence pattern. Him creating a new planet full of life, is well out of his intelligence pattern. But not out of big G's. Big G made Tryant for goodness sake. So i'm not convinced.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Didn't Thanos say that when Nebula got the Gauntlet that anyone, no matter how dumb they were, would eventually take over the universe and beat Eternity if they had it?
Eventually yes. EVENTUALLY. Which is why Eternity wanted it before THe populan learned how to use it. It was just as powerful as the 616 IG.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
When it's something you can't explain, it's go ask the writers.
If there is no explanation, then I go by what is depicted.
Unlike yourself who loves to speculate away, in a fairytale manner of the events of said occurance.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Every thing you mention as part of the Imp man doing with the guantlet he's done to a lessor degree with his own powers. So that is not showing me that he had the intelligence to create a planet. He's ran from people before using his own pop up powers. So it is feasable for him to run from eternity using the guantlet. He does imaginary pranks all the time. It's feasable for him to create an illusion. And he pretends to be other beings all the time. So him trapping the big is nothing out of his ordinary intelligence pattern. Him creating a new planet full of life, is well out of his intelligence pattern. But not out of big G's. Big G made Tryant for goodness sake. So i'm not convinced.
This entire paragraph says nothing, to add or even subtract from your argument, it simply has nothing to do with the facts.
He could've this, and he could've that, but the bottom line is IM NEVER destroyed a Planet let alone a Solar System during this issue.
And IM needed Galactus's help to create a Universe, period.
And when Surfer had the IG from another Universe, he wasn't even noticed by Eternity, heck, Eternity wasn't even mentioned.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Eventually yes. EVENTUALLY. Which is why Eternity wanted it before THe populan learned how to use it. It was just as powerful as the 616 IG.
Research, and all things will be known to you.
Nebula had the 616 IG, so that settles that.
You have NO idea why Eternity wanted that IG, none at all.
When Surfer had his IG, he wasn't even noticed by Eternity.
Originally posted by Mr Master
If there is no explanation, then I go by what is depicted.Unlike yourself who loves to speculate away, in a fairytale manner of the events of said occurance.
This entire paragraph says nothing, to add or even subtract from your argument, it simply has nothing to do with the facts.
He could've this, and he could've that, but the bottom line is IM NEVER destroyed a Planet let alone a Solar System during this issue.
And IM needed Galactus's help to create a Universe, period.And when Surfer had the IG from another Universe, he wasn't even noticed by Eternity, heck, Eternity wasn't even mentioned.
You never proved why Eternity wanted the IG if it coudln't even create a planet.
You Also have mentioned the surfer IG thing when that has nothing to do with this debate.
You have not proven that the IG was less powerful than the other. The only thing you proved was that a severly less intelligent than thanos Imp man used it in ways that are condusive to his character.
Galactus used the IG to create a planet easily.
I just want to know why Eternity wanted that IG so bad if it couldn't even create a planet? There are beings in the MU who are more powerful than this weak version of the IG you claim to be showing us.
Originally posted by Mr MasterProblem is, if you want me to accept this supposition, then you're referencing by analogy that: 1) Eternity didn't destroy Thanos w/IG when he assaulted him; so if 2) The UN assaulted Thanos; then 3) The UN probably won't destroy Thanos w/ IG. Now how did you jump from 2 to 3? The only way is by assuming a premise: 2b) The UN is either comparable or weaker than Eternity. That completes the logical supposition you're making. And like I said, how could you possibly compare the UN's power to Eternity's power? We've seen the UN destroy and recreate Multi-Eternity. Your assumption makes no sense and without it, your supposition is baseless.
Your saying they are comparable, NOT me.I said, "SAME THING that happened to Thanos"
What happened to Thanos when he was attacked?
Nothing, (that's what would happen ... Nothing)
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou are still avoiding my point. I don't particularly care about other realities' Infinity Gems. I care about the 616 Infinity Gems. Let me make that clear, in no way do I care about what other alternate Infinity Gems might are or how they might be affected. Others may argue that the alternate IG's were just as powerful. I am not arguing that.
Like I told you already, There are NO Gautlet's FORMED, NONE, NADA!!SO the Universes that do have Gems, perhaps those Gems are destroyed when said Universe is destroyed.
But STOP comparing the Infinity GEMS, with the Infinity GAUNTLET, two completely DIFFERENT sets of Power.
ONLY the Living Tribunal has been able to stand up to the 616 Infinity Gauntlet.
and there have been ONLY TWO other Universes where Infinity Gauntlets have appeared, and they were WEAKER Gauntlets at that.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNo need to be confused. I was reiterating your argument in the "Parallax vs Abraxas" thread. It's your argument. Either way, both you and I agree, the 616 UN destroyed "everything" and recreated "everything." What you must clarify, is whether the 616 Infinity Gems were included in this "everything."
hum
Originally posted by Mr MasterAgain, don't care about alternate IG.
Because your still stuck on there are Infinity Gems in every Universe, plus they have formed Gauntlets too.NOT every Universe has Infinity Gems.
and ever since the Living Tribunal spoke his judgement, there have been NO Gauntlets ANYWHERE.
Originally posted by Mr MasterAh. So this is the crux of your opinion. Extremely weak, but I shall address it later at a more appropriate point after dealing with the rest of your post.
And as for those Universes that do have atleast the Infinity Gems, well ...the Gems on their own are microscopic in power vs the Gauntlet they form.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou cited in the Mr. Mxy vs Galactus thread that the 616 UN also kept reappearing in his ship after its uses. I agree.
Don't know what your talking about.
Originally posted by Mr MasterI don't care about alternate universes, only 616. Are you saying that the 616 UN has destroyed itself and not recreated itself the same way it destroyed "everything" and recreated "everything?" That is an extremely poor assumption. If that was the case, than surely Reed would have explained that after the 616 UN recreated everything, "Oddly enough. Although everything has been restored.. the UN itself has not." I think it is more than logical, indeed inherent and explicit in Reeds' words that the 616 UN is part of the "everything" that was recreated.
I never seen the UN lingering around after a Universe was rubbed out by it.
Originally posted by Mr MasterThen please explain to me why you think the 616 UN was permanently destroyed.
Clearly it does not.
Originally posted by Mr MasterAre you taking a neutral position on this? Please pick a position.
No.No.
Originally posted by Mr MasterShe took Spectre's power in 'Day of Vengeance' and immediately proceeded to wield it as the new divine engine of wrath. She turned all Spectre-like in a sexy yellow-black outfit and started bringing the whup-ass on Eclipso. There was no "The power is too much to control!" She just started using it. Therefore, I shall ask again, knowing this much: "Do you think Black Alice is more powerful than Spectre?"
Yes.If Black Alice can do that, then without PIS she can kill Spectre, and that's that.
So yes, she is more powerful than Spectre. (Unless there's a catch your not telling me)IG made the UN it's b*tch.
IG>UN
If Black Alice can steal Spectre's power, and then ravage Reality with it including Spectre, then she is more powerful than Spectre.
If she can steal his power but do nothing with it, it's a bunch of PIS and not worth discussing.
Originally posted by Mr MasterActually, only in your mind is this the crux of the matter. I believe what you're purporting is an utter absurdity. Let us take some examples: 1) Apparently, Rogue is the most powerful mutant in your mind since she can absorb other people's powers and make them her own... even completely if she touches them long enough. 2) You also apparently think Parasite is the most powerful supervillain in DC since he can make Superman's powers his b1tch by absorbing his power. 3) And now apparently you think Black Alice, a normal teenager whose only power is the ability to usurp another's magic, is more powerful than Spectre.
The crux of the matter is that an INCOMPLETE IG owned the UN, after the UN was fired.There's no getting around that.
I think the logical absurdities of your argument is self-evident. But if I have to, I will explain why they are absurd. Being able to circumvent another object's or being's power does not make you more powerful than that object or person. Therefore, Sentinels have always had the ability to generate a field that negates and nullifies mutants' powers, but that is merely a circumvention and as such, if you were to quantify or qualify a comparison between a single Sentinel and Magneto himself, you can clearly conclude that Magneto is more powerful than a single Sentinel. Quantitatively: Sentinel is powered by 10,000,000 watts of electricity while Magneto can power himself and wield 100,000,000 watts of electricity. Qualitatively: Sentinel can normally be beaten by Colossus while Magneto would normally beat Colossus. Another basis for comparison is the direct comparison: A Sentinel with all its power mustered against a Magneto all things considered equal would fail to kill him while Magneto with all his power mustered would easily destroy a Sentinel all things considered equal.
Circumvention by itself, is not a quantitative comparison nor is it a qualitiative comparison. It also cannot serve as a clear basis between what/who fundamentally overpowers what/who in a direct comparison because it completely circumvents it.
Originally posted by Mr MasterFrom above, where I intuit that the 616 UN was recreated also with the multiverse. It also disappeared after its normal uses prior to that in 616 universe and as far as we've seen, it keeps reappearing in Galactus' ship.
Well first I disagree, and secondly where are you getting this UN coming back thingy?
Originally posted by Mr MasterFor someone who does not want to use alternate IG's, you seem quite willing to use alternate UN's.
When Korvac erased a Universe the UN was erased aswell...
Originally posted by Mr MasterMarvel has designated the Ultraverse to be Earth-93060. You are clearly wrong. Therefore, since the Ultraverse is part of the Marvel Multiverse, and the UN destroyed "everything" in the multiverse, the 616 Infinity Gems were destroyed and recreated by the UN.
Oh and btw, the 616 Infinity Gems were in the Ultraverse (a Universe within another Multi-verse) by the time Reed remade the Prime Multi-verse."I must retrive the Infinity Gems before the Portal closes"
"I failed to keep the Infinity Gems from falling into this New Universe" (the Ultraverse, which is within a separate Multi-verse.
Originally posted by Mr MasterIgnored for redundancy. I don't care about other alternate IG's.
The Infinity Gauntlet has ONLY been seen in TWO other Universes beside 616, the Impossible Man had a Gauntlet and lost it to Galactus. (Impossible Man couldn't eve create a Planet with this IG)And Surfer had one and destroyed it with the same Gauntlet. (Eternity never noticed Surfer with this IG)
Originally posted by Mr MasterA fair response and one that ties back to your assuming that the 616 Infinity Gems on their own hold microscopic power compared to the 616 Infinity Gauntlet itself. This appears to be a facially weak and overly convenient argument. A response thrown back at this would be: since the 616 UN destroyed the 616 Infinity Gems which comprise the 616 IG, then because the 616 UN can destroy and recreate the complete utter source of the 616 IG's power, and the IG can only redirect the UN's power at it's wielder... then the UN > IG.
The 616 IG has never been destroyed.
Also, the 616 UN's feat of destroying and recreating the ENTIRE Marvel Multiverse was never matched by the 616 Infinity Gauntlet. At best you show an incomplete 616 IG duplicating and creating one new universe. So please respond on those two fronts.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Problem is, if you want me to accept this supposition, then you're referencing by analogy that: 1) Eternity didn't destroy Thanos w/IG when he assaulted him; so if 2) The UN assaulted Thanos; then 3) The UN probably won't destroy Thanos w/ IG. Now how did you jump from 2 to 3? The only way is by assuming a premise: 2b) The UN is either comparable or weaker than Eternity. That completes the logical supposition you're making. And like I said, how could you possibly compare the UN's power to Eternity's power? We've seen the UN destroy and recreate Multi-Eternity. Your assumption makes no sense and without it, your supposition is baseless.
Your one two diagram is more baseless, I never said Eternity's power was comparable to the UN's, seriously stay thorough or there's no point in debating.
The only power capable of standing up to Warlock was the Living Tribunal.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You are still avoiding my point. I don't particularly care about other realities' Infinity Gems. I care about the 616 Infinity Gems. Let me make that clear, in no way do I care about what other alternate Infinity Gems might are or how they might be affected. Others may argue that the alternate IG's were just as powerful. I am not arguing that.No need to be confused. I was reiterating your argument in the "Parallax vs Abraxas" thread. It's your argument. Either way, both you and I agree, the 616 UN destroyed "everything" and recreated "everything." What you must clarify, is whether the 616 Infinity Gems were included in this "everything."
Again,
the Ultraverse is part of a different Multi-verse.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Again, don't care about alternate IG.
Ah. So this is the crux of your opinion. Extremely weak, but I shall address it later at a more appropriate point after dealing with the rest of your post.
"weak?" 😂
Your funny,
prove that the Infinity Gems are just as powerful separated than when FORMED into a Gauntlet.
Go ahead...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You cited in the Mr. Mxy vs Galactus thread that the 616 UN also kept reappearing in his ship after its uses. I agree.
No YOU said that, I already told you my position on that matter.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't care about alternate universes, only 616.
Good, neither do I.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Are you saying that the 616 UN has destroyed itself and not recreated itself the same way it destroyed "everything" and recreated "everything?" That is an extremely poor assumption. If that was the case, than surely Reed would have explained that after the 616 UN recreated everything, "Oddly enough. Although everything has been restored.. the UN itself has not." I think it is more than logical, indeed inherent and explicit in Reeds' words that the 616 UN is part of the "everything" that was recreated.
Then please explain to me why you think the 616 UN was permanently destroyed.
Are you taking a neutral position on this? Please pick a position.
hahaha!!!, you remind me of someone,
Anyhow, had you paid attention in my other posts I clearly said I never seen the UN lingering around after it has rubbed out a Universe, in the Reed case, it created a new Multi-verse exactly like the one that was right before Abraxas manifested.
I suppose there was a UN in that previous Reality.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
She took Spectre's power in 'Day of Vengeance' and immediately proceeded to wield it as the new divine engine of wrath. She turned all Spectre-like in a sexy yellow-black outfit and started bringing the whup-ass on Eclipso. There was no "The power is too much to control!" She just started using it. Therefore, I shall ask again, knowing this much: "Do you think Black Alice is more powerful than Spectre?"Actually, only in your mind is this the crux of the matter. I believe what you're purporting is an utter absurdity. Let us take some examples: 1) Apparently, Rogue is the most powerful mutant in your mind since she can absorb other people's powers and make them her own... even completely if she touches them long enough. 2) You also apparently think Parasite is the most powerful supervillain in DC since he can make Superman's powers his b1tch by absorbing his power. 3) And now apparently you think Black Alice, a normal teenager whose only power is the ability to usurp another's magic, is more powerful than Spectre.
I think the logical absurdities of your argument is self-evident. But if I have to, I will explain why they are absurd. Being able to circumvent another object's or being's power does not make you more powerful than that object or person. Therefore, Sentinels have always had the ability to generate a field that negates and nullifies mutants' powers, but that is merely a circumvention and as such, if you were to quantify or qualify a comparison between a single Sentinel and Magneto himself, you can clearly conclude that Magneto is more powerful than a single Sentinel. Quantitatively: Sentinel is powered by 10,000,000 watts of electricity while Magneto can power himself and wield 100,000,000 watts of electricity. Qualitatively: Sentinel can normally be beaten by Colossus while Magneto would normally beat Colossus. Another basis for comparison is the direct comparison: A Sentinel with all its power mustered against a Magneto all things considered equal would fail to kill him while Magneto with all his power mustered would easily destroy a Sentinel all things considered equal.Circumvention by itself, is not a quantitative comparison nor is it a qualitiative comparison. It also cannot serve as a clear basis between what/who fundamentally overpowers what/who in a direct comparison because it completely circumvents it.
dontgetit
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
From above, where I intuit that the 616 UN was recreated also with the multiverse. It also disappeared after its normal uses prior to that in 616 universe and as far as we've seen, it keeps reappearing in Galactus' ship.
Not true,
we can only confidently speculate on the UN being recreated during the Reed incident.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
For someone who does not want to use alternate IG's, you seem quite willing to use alternate UN's.
Marvel has designated the Ultraverse to be Earth-93060. You are clearly wrong. Therefore, since the Ultraverse is part of the Marvel Multiverse, and the UN destroyed "everything" in the multiverse, the 616 Infinity Gems were destroyed and recreated by the UN.
And you think because it has an Earth it's automatically part of this Multi-verse?
The prime Multi-verse is not the only place with an Earth.
The Doctor Who series takes place in the Gallifreyan Multi-verse, Dr Who is from Earth 8162, in a Universe OUTSIDE the Prime (616) Multi-verse
The New Universe is part of another Multi-verse
The Star Trek Universe is part of another Multi-verse
Star Wars Universe is part of another Multi-verse
The Ultraverse is part of another Multi-verse
The Beyond Realm, PRE and POST, was in it's own Space but Outside the Multi-verse
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
A fair response and one that ties back to your assuming that the 616 Infinity Gems on their own hold microscopic power compared to the 616 Infinity Gauntlet itself. This appears to be a facially weak and overly convenient argument. A response thrown back at this would be: since the 616 UN destroyed the 616 Infinity Gems which comprise the 616 IG, then because the 616 UN can destroy and recreate the complete utter source of the 616 IG's power, and the IG can only redirect the UN's power at it's wielder... then the UN > IG.
Actually the "facially weak" argument is saying the Gem separated are as great as the Gems combined.
That's laughable.
An INCOMPLETE IG PAWND the UN, get over it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Also, the 616 UN's feat of destroying and recreating the ENTIRE Marvel Multiverse was never matched by the 616 Infinity Gauntlet. At best you show an incomplete 616 IG duplicating and creating one new universe. So please respond on those two fronts.
I have the IG having to be gauged by the Living Tribunal, (the second MOST powerful entity in Marvel) before he handed down his Judgement..
Here he DETERMINES whether he HAD the power or NOT
An Incomplete IG was controlling Three Universes while merging Two of those.
An Incomplete IG completely controlled the power/enrgies of the UN.
A Complete IG became the entire 616 Universe, in the hands of Thanos was never defeated, Thanos defeated himself.
A Complete IG in the hands of Warlock forced the Living Tribunal in on the Action, knowing Warlock had the power to devastate everything, without the Will to control it like Thanos.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNo. You stop trying to allude the point. I pointed out where your supposition completely fails without the necessary premise you assumed. Your rhetoric does not work. If you don't want to assume that the UN's power is comparable to Eternity, than just say so and move on to admit that without it, your supposition is baseless. Try to remedy it or abandon it. Your unwillingness to even do that much and begin accusing me of being unreasonable and then pointing out something completely off-topic is indicative of the rest of your post, which I will dissect.
Your one two diagram is more baseless, I never said Eternity's power was comparable to the UN's, seriously stay thorough or there's no point in debating.The only power capable of standing up to Warlock was the Living Tribunal.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNot according to the scan you posted, which has Surfer characterizing it as a mere universe and not a separate multiverse. The "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005" does not situate the Ultraverse in a separate Multiverse. More details below.
Again,the Ultraverse is part of a different Multi-verse.
Originally posted by Mr MasterHad you bothered to focus on what I boiled my argument to at the very bottom, you'll notice that I never set out to prove that the 616 Infinity Gems were just as powerful when separated. I argued that the 616 UN's feat of destroying the 616 Infinity Gems, which are the complete and utter source of the 616 IG's power trumps the fact that the 616 IG manipulated the 616 UN's energies back onto its wielder. Go ahead and avoid tackling the above comparison by trying to put words into my mouth. But twisting my argument will lead you nowhere.
"weak?" 😂Your funny,
prove that the Infinity Gems are just as powerful separated than when FORMED into a Gauntlet.
Go ahead...
Originally posted by Mr MasterThen let me ask you this. How many times has the 616 UN been used and/or stolen. Where does it keep ending back up after each use and after each theft?
No YOU said that, I already told you my position on that matter.
Originally posted by Mr MasterAnd what about the subsequent reality created in the aftermath of Reeds' activation during the 'Abraxas' storyline? Is there a UN there or not? If you don't believe so, why is it more logical to you to assume it isn't there when Reed clearly and explicitly states "everything" was realligned/recreated? Your assumption flies in the face of the Reeds' own statement.
hahaha!!!, you remind me of someone,Anyhow, had you paid attention in my other posts I clearly said I never seen the UN lingering around after it has rubbed out a Universe, in the Reed case, it created a new Multi-verse exactly like the one that was right before Abraxas manifested.
I suppose there was a UN in that previous Reality.
Originally posted by Mr MasterSincerely speaking, this is becoming a typical maneuver on your part. Instead of defending my criticism, you feign ignorance. What I shall continue to point out is that your conclusion that the "IG > UN" relies on the very same falacious logic that allows you to state that "Black Alice > Spectre." It is utterly laughable and I can see you're already trying to back away from it since you never repeated your admission that Black Alice > Spectre. Don't worry, it's still out there. And it's on you to explain how your logic can still stand when I've clearly shown why your logic is utterly wrong. Want it spelled out? I'll repeat it: "Manipulating the UN's energies is no basis for concluding the IG's dominance. Otherewise you erroneously conclude that a character like Black Alice is more powerful than Spectre, simply because she circumvents his power and wields it."
dontgetit
Originally posted by Mr MasterI don't need "confident speculation." I have Reeds' own words. Everything was realligned, thus everything was returned and restored. You have to "unconfidently speculate" that somehow the 616 UN was curiously not a part of this "recreation" and that it has disappeared. Since there is absolutely no evidence suggesting that the UN was not recreated, there is no speculation, only a logical assertion and obvious conclusion.
Not true,we can only confidently speculate on the UN being recreated during the Reed incident.
Originally posted by Mr MasterNo, I don't believe that an Earth being designated with a number is prima facie evidence that puts it in the Marvel Multiverse. But it is highly indicative of it. Even moreso, since the Star Trek and Star Wars universes have no Earth-# designation at all.
And you think because it has an Earth it's automatically part of this Multi-verse?The prime Multi-verse is not the only place with an Earth.
The Doctor Who series takes place in the Gallifreyan Multi-verse, Dr Who is from Earth 8162, in a Universe OUTSIDE the Prime (616) Multi-verse
The New Universe is part of another Multi-verse
The Star Trek Universe is part of another Multi-verse
Star Wars Universe is part of another Multi-verse
The Ultraverse is part of another Multi-verse
The Beyond Realm, PRE and POST, was in it's own Space but Outside the Multi-verse
In the "Handbook to the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005," they do not characterize the Ultraverse as being outside the Marvel Multiverse and characterize it as an "alternate universe." It is Earth-93060. They also list the New Universe as being Earth-555 since its relaunch. They also list it as an "alternate universe," and not a separate "multiverse."
NOW, the DC Multiverse however WAS explicitly cited to be a separate "multiverse." If they went to the trouble of calling DC a "multiverse," I think they would have done the same and called the Ultraverse and the New Universe "multiverses" as well, if they intended it to be so. In addition to this obviously clear characterization, it is exceptionally logical to say that the Ultraverse and the New Universe were integrated into the entire Marvel Multiverse in 'Black September' and 'Starblast' respectively since characters have travelled between them, come back and have had lasting changes in 616 characters' continuity. Their designation as "alternate universes" rather than "multiverses" also suggests that they are part of the Marvel Multiverse.
Originally posted by Mr MasterOnce again ignored for redundancy. Nowhere did I postulate that the 616 Infinity Gems were more powerful than the 616 IG. Instead of injecting what you believe I'm arguing, try focusing on the substance. If you don't want to go through my long-winded posts, then deal with the summarization at the very end where I wrap up my challenges. I'll post a simlar summarization down below.
Actually the "facially weak" argument is saying the Gem separated are as great as the Gems combined.That's laughable.
An INCOMPLETE IG PAWND the UN, get over it.
Originally posted by Mr MasterI own Infinity Watch. And I have read every instance that you list. Unfortunately, 1) The Incomplete IG is seen as merely redirecting the UN's energies and not controlling them; 2) the complete 616 IG in Adam Warlock's hand during Infinity Watch #1 was seen to endanger that universe and not the entire Multiverse; and 3) You still haven't shown me a single feat that the 616 IG ever matched the 616 UN's destroying and recreating of the Multiverse. What you want, is to convince me to cobble together your listed feats and assume that the 616 IG could affect change across the entire Multiverse all at once. Complete manipulation over the 616 universe, a duplicate 616 universe, and a dimension that exists outside both has been the widest scope of its power, nowhere near the quantitative or qualitative measure of the UN's scope in 'Abraxas.'
I have the IG having to be gauged by the Living Tribunal, (the second MOST powerful entity in Marvel) before he handed down his Judgement..Here he DETERMINES whether he HAD the power or NOT
An Incomplete IG was controlling Three Universes while merging Two of those.
An Incomplete IG completely controlled the power/enrgies of the UN.
A Complete IG became the entire 616 Universe, in the hands of Thanos was never defeated, Thanos defeated himself.
A Complete IG in the hands of Warlock forced the Living Tribunal in on the Action, knowing Warlock had the power to devastate everything, without the Will to control it like Thanos.
Again, I'll summarize and focus my challenges: 1) Your "IG > UN" that hinges on a redirection of energies is utterly falacious because of your "Black Alice > Spectre" rationale; 2) The 616 UN has destroyed and recreated the very foundation and source of the 616 IG's power which is a greater comparable feat than the 616 IG redirecting energies back at a 616 UN wielder. 3) The 616 IG still has not shown any feat on par with the 616 UN's destruction and recreation of the entire Marvel Multiverse.
P.S. Since we both are referring clearly to 616 UN and 616 IG and 616 Infinity Gems, I really want to dispense with the 616 from here on out.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. You stop trying to allude the point. I pointed out where your supposition completely fails without the necessary premise you assumed. Your rhetoric does not work. If you don't want to assume that the UN's power is comparable to Eternity, than just say so and move on to admit that without it, your supposition is baseless. Try to remedy it or abandon it. Your unwillingness to even do that much and begin accusing me of being unreasonable and then pointing out something completely off-topic is indicative of the rest of your post, which I will dissect.
Not according to the scan you posted, which has Surfer characterizing it as a mere universe and not a separate multiverse. The "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005" does not situate the Ultraverse in a separate Multiverse. More details below.
Had you bothered to focus on what I boiled my argument to at the very bottom, you'll notice that I never set out to prove that the 616 Infinity Gems were just as powerful when separated. I argued that the 616 UN's feat of destroying the 616 Infinity Gems, which are the complete and utter source of the 616 IG's power trumps the fact that the 616 IG manipulated the 616 UN's energies back onto its wielder. Go ahead and avoid tackling the above comparison by trying to put words into my mouth. But twisting my argument will lead you nowhere.
Then let me ask you this. How many times has the 616 UN been used and/or stolen. Where does it keep ending back up after each use and after each theft?
And what about the subsequent reality created in the aftermath of Reeds' activation during the 'Abraxas' storyline? Is there a UN there or not? If you don't believe so, why is it more logical to you to assume it isn't there when Reed clearly and explicitly states "everything" was realligned/recreated? Your assumption flies in the face of the Reeds' own statement.
Sincerely speaking, this is becoming a typical maneuver on your part. Instead of defending my criticism, you feign ignorance. What I shall continue to point out is that your conclusion that the "IG > UN" relies on the very same falacious logic that allows you to state that "Black Alice > Spectre." It is utterly laughable and I can see you're already trying to back away from it since you never repeated your admission that Black Alice > Spectre. Don't worry, it's still out there. And it's on you to explain how your logic can still stand when I've clearly shown why your logic is utterly wrong. Want it spelled out? I'll repeat it: "Manipulating the UN's energies is no basis for concluding the IG's dominance. Otherewise you erroneously conclude that a character like Black Alice is more powerful than Spectre, simply because she circumvents his power and wields it."
I don't need "confident speculation." I have Reeds' own words. Everything was realligned, thus everything was returned and restored. You have to "unconfidently speculate" that somehow the 616 UN was curiously not a part of this "recreation" and that it has disappeared. Since there is absolutely no evidence suggesting that the UN was not recreated, there is no speculation, only a logical assertion and obvious conclusion.
No, I don't believe that an Earth being designated with a number is prima facie evidence that puts it in the Marvel Multiverse. But it is highly indicative of it. Even moreso, since the Star Trek and Star Wars universes have no Earth-# designation at all.In the "Handbook to the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005," they do not characterize the Ultraverse as being outside the Marvel Multiverse and characterize it as an "alternate universe." It is Earth-93060. They also list the New Universe as being Earth-555 since its relaunch. They also list it as an "alternate universe," and not a separate "multiverse."
NOW, the DC Multiverse however WAS explicitly cited to be a separate "multiverse." If they went to the trouble of calling DC a "multiverse," I think they would have done the same and called the Ultraverse and the New Universe "multiverses" as well, if they intended it to be so. In addition to this obviously clear characterization, it is exceptionally logical to say that the Ultraverse and the New Universe were integrated into the entire Marvel Multiverse in 'Black September' and 'Starblast' respectively since characters have travelled between them, come back and have had lasting changes in 616 characters' continuity. Their designation as "alternate universes" rather than "multiverses" also suggests that they are part of the Marvel Multiverse.
Once again ignored for redundancy. Nowhere did I postulate that the 616 Infinity Gems were more powerful than the 616 IG. Instead of injecting what you believe I'm arguing, try focusing on the substance. If you don't want to go through my long-winded posts, then deal with the summarization at the very end where I wrap up my challenges. I'll post a simlar summarization down below.
I own Infinity Watch. And I have read every instance that you list. Unfortunately, 1) The Incomplete IG is seen as merely redirecting the UN's energies and not controlling them; 2) the complete 616 IG in Adam Warlock's hand during Infinity Watch #1 was seen to endanger that universe and not the entire Multiverse; and 3) You still haven't shown me a single feat that the 616 IG ever matched the 616 UN's destroying and recreating of the Multiverse. What you want, is to convince me to cobble together your listed feats and assume that the 616 IG could affect change across the entire Multiverse all at once. Complete manipulation over the 616 universe, a duplicate 616 universe, and a dimension that exists outside both has been the widest scope of its power, nowhere near the quantitative or qualitative measure of the UN's scope in 'Abraxas.'Again, I'll summarize and focus my challenges: 1) Your "IG > UN" that hinges on a redirection of energies is utterly falacious because of your "Black Alice > Spectre" rationale; 2) The 616 UN has destroyed and recreated the very foundation and source of the 616 IG's power which is a greater comparable feat than the 616 IG redirecting energies back at a 616 UN wielder. 3) The 616 IG still has not shown any feat on par with the 616 UN's destruction and recreation of the entire Marvel Multiverse.
P.S. Since we both are referring clearly to 616 UN and 616 IG and 616 Infinity Gems, I really want to dispense with the 616 from here on out.
WOW, like how do you say what I been trying to say forever so well!!!
