As I said, almost all his "teh uber" quotes are hyperbole
Erm? I don't understand how you state its hyperbole when the author himself supports the quote. Karapyshyn doesn't just say "ZOMG teh Kas'im is teh bestest duellist eva!!111."
He explains how Kas'im spent painful decades (implying several) mastering every lightsaber form and perfecting every nuance of each form until he became the perfect weapon. I can understand how he forms the basis that Kas'im can be considered arguably "the best duelist."
If Karapshyn was a dick and said "Kas'im was the best duelist ever" then I would agree with you. Hyperbole and utter bs. However, he supports the quote, stating why Kas'im can be considered the best duelist. Moreover, he is clear that it is referring to Kas'im's saber skills, and not some other strange metaphor of what power could be (ie in the sense of conviction, politics, intelligence)
The fact that Bane was able to contend against such a warrior speaks plainly of his prodigy and sheer saber skills.
"They had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move and trick with the double-bladed saber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all. pg 243
AC, I can see that you are a reasonably bright guy, but really? You make it seem as if Bane had an advantage due to sparring with Kas'im. Kas'im also knew Bane's attacks inside out. He was after all Bane's teacher. The battle was not at all set in Bane's favour in the beginning. They both knew enough about each others techniques to make the fight even.
As I said Bane had seen it all and when Kas'im showed him something new he panicked and was owned. .
Keep in mind that this was the first time Bane ever observed dual wielding, moreover, the first person he experienced this alien technique of duelling from was none other than Kas'im. Kas'im on the otherhand, at this point knew all of Bane's moves.
At the end of PoD, Bane is basically well versed in all facets of lightsaber combat, seeing as how he fought someone who trained in every single form, and spent decades perfecting these skills.
And Vader doesn't fight in predictable sets
Nobody said he does, but again, it was never stated that Bane was overly predictable either. Kas'im knew Bane's moves inside out only because he trained Bane. Bane was completely unaware of Kas'im's dual wielding style, a style until that moment he had never seen or heard of. In the second round, Ka'sim definately had an advantage. He trained Bane, he knew his moves.
Vader did not train Bane (duh 😛), nor does he know Bane's moves. I believe Bane stands a good chance of taking this. Unpredicatability is on both their sides.
Does bane use a double bladed saber or something? Sry i still havnt read the book, waiting for the paperback version because im cheapskate
Bane uses a single bladed lightsaber that has a hilt designed for Shien/Djem So users (the type of form he specializes in and possesses natural advantages with, especially given his enormous size, muscle mass, and physical strength.) The description of the blade was pretty sweet, I think. I would recommend the book Kadesh, even if you have to pay an extra couple of bucks. IMO best Star Wars book ever.
Erm? I don't understand how you state its hyperbole when the author himself supports the quote. Karapyshyn doesn't just say "ZOMG teh Kas'im is teh bestest duellist eva!!111."He explains how Kas'im spent painful decades (implying several) mastering every lightsaber form and perfecting every nuance of each form until he became the perfect weapon. I can understand how he forms the basis that Kas'im can be considered arguably "the best duelist."
If Karapshyn was a dick and said "Kas'im was the best duelist ever" then I would agree with you. Hyperbole and utter bs. However, he supports the quote, stating why Kas'im can be considered the best duelist. Moreover, he is clear that it is referring to Kas'im's saber skills, and not some other strange metaphor of what power could be (ie in the sense of conviction, politics, intelligence)
Perhapes I should have made myslef clearer, I m not disputing the "He spent decades training" or even that he may be one of the bests, on a short list of about 10 people. But when Drew stars calling him the "Perfect Warrior" thats pure hyperbole because he's well...not.
The fact that Bane was able to contend against such a warrior speaks plainly of his prodigy and sheer saber skills.
Not quite, DK made it painfully obvious that Banes uber force connectionw as the reason he was beating Kas'im.
"The outcome was inveitable. Bane was simply too strong in the force."
The whole book is basically about Bane giving in to the Dark Side which will make him stronger. And when he finally does and we see his full potential in his duel with Kas'im its because of the force and his memory of everything Kas'im does.
"For the fisrt time he was calling on his full potential."
AC, I can see that you are a reasonably bright guy, but really? You make it seem as if Bane had an advantage due to sparring with Kas'im. Kas'im also knew Bane's attacks inside out. He was after all Bane's teacher. The battle was not at all set in Bane's favour in the beginning. They both knew enough about each others techniques to make the fight even.
He did, Kas'im could probably see the blows coming its just Bane was too overwhelming for him to actually do anything about it much like Dooku v Anakin 2.
Nobody said he does, but again, it was never stated that Bane was overly predictable either. Kas'im knew Bane's moves inside out only because he trained Bane. Bane was completely unaware of Kas'im's dual wielding style, a style until that moment he had never seen or heard of. In the second round, Ka'sim definately had an advantage. He trained Bane, he knew his moves.
He had heard of it Kas'im just told him not to pay any attention too it and he like a retard listened.
Vader did not train Bane (duh 😛), nor does he know Bane's moves. I believe Bane stands a good chance of taking this. Unpredicatability is on both their sides.
Um how so? Bane uses sets of Djem So, a style Vader mastered and knew inside and out. not only that but Vader's custom burrows aspects from every other style combined to one, coupled with Vaders speed, incredible power, Bane would essential be fighting a much more advanced version of himself with a broader knowledge of battle, styles, and lightsaber combat. And really which Darth Vader is this? Post or Pre suit?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Bane has more raw abilities since Vader is in a suit, yet Vader still has the advantage with the saber and mastery of the force. I'd say he wins but after a difficult fight.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Perhapes I should have made myslef clearer, I m not disputing the "He spent decades training" or even that he may be one of the bests, on a short list of about 10 people. But when Drew stars calling him the "Perfect Warrior" thats pure hyperbole because he's well...not.
Ah, no problem then. I do not think that Kas'im is "the perfect warrior." But he is definately one of the best. Bane being able to keep up with him in only a period of 1-4 years speaks greatly for B's prodigy. He was able to complete with one of the bests in lightsaber dueling within such a short time. A warrior who essentially knew more than Bane was unable to best him with his mastery of the "seven" forms of dueling.
Karapshyn was trying to establish Bane's finesse and skill with the lightsaber when he wrote that passage I believe.
Not quite, DK made it painfully obvious that Banes uber force connectionw as the reason he was beating Kas'im.
He won round two due to his uber force abilities. Round one, he was actually dominating Kas'im in lightsaber. I think that was what "Donkey Kong" was hinting at.
I would liek to add Kas'im was not just knowlegeable in lightsaber dueling, but he was also tremendously fast.
I do not have the passage with me. But remember when Bane was knocking on Kas'im's door? Before Bane could get the second knock in, (which would approximately take 0.5/0.25 seconds) Kas'im opened the door and pulled Bane in. He completely curbstomped a gargantuan rancour within a minute at max. And he was not even warmed up at that point.
If Bane was capable of matching someone who spent decades learning the arts of the saber, and honing these skills to be included in the list of "the best," then he has seen enough of every form of lightsaber combat, from an opponent of incredible fitness and strength. Bane has seen, experienced, and fought in enough lightsaber combat to best someone on the level of Vader.
Unpredictability should not be an issue either. Bane lost because the form of fighting Kas'im employed was something he was unfamiliar with, whereas Kas'im was familiar with everything Bane knew . Thus the premise that Bane can only beat predictable opponents using predictable styles is false.
Take ROTS for expample. Neither Anakin or Obi Wan could best each other in ROTS because they both knew each others styles as intimately as two lovers would know each other (lol, perhaps this is true between Ani and Obi in another sense, but lets not get into that.) Were they both predictable to other opponents? No. They just knew alot about each others lightsaber styles.
Bane was outduelling Kas'im in round 1, despite the fact that they both knew each other's forms expertly. In round two, Kas'im had the advantage; he knew Bane's attacks, while Bane did not know Kas'im's.
Let me summarize things to make it clearer for you. In round one, Bane knew Kas'im's attacks and Kas'im knew Bane's. Anakin knew Obi Wan's attacks, and Obi Wan knew Anakins. Bane was able to best Kas'im (in round 1), however Anakin was unable to best Obi Wan.
Vader does not know Bane's attacks. Bane does not know Vader's attacks. They are both unpredictable.
The whole book is basically about Bane giving in to the Dark Side which will make him stronger. And when he finally does and we see his full potential in his duel with Kas'im its because of the force and his memory of everything Kas'im does.
This only speaks well for Bane. When you say that Bane only triumphed due to his "force muscles," this implies excellent saber technique. Saber strength, as Kas'im explained, is not due to how well you can master the sequences, but how well you can let yourself free and summon the darkside (or the light, depending of course) to guide your saber.
He did, Kas'im could probably see the blows coming its just Bane was too overwhelming for him to actually do anything about it much like Dooku v Anakin 2.
Never disagreed with you here. Well sort of. Dooku is stronger than Anakin in force attacks, and in a neutral arena where he is allowed to use this talent to the max, and is not beholden to a "cardboard cut out" lightsaber battle, he would win.
But I digress. Bane was superiour to Kas'im because of how well he let the force guide his movements. That is partly why he can be considered an excellent duelist. Much like Anakin.
He had heard of it Kas'im just told him not to pay any attention too it and he like a retard listened.
Perhaps. Bane was still naive back then to the darkside and the Sith. He matures throughout PoD, and becomes far more learned in the darkside after consulting Revan's holocron.
Um how so? Bane uses sets of Djem So, a style Vader mastered and knew inside and out.
Bane also mastered the form, he was able to beat Kas in round 1, with it.
not only that but Vader's custom burrows aspects from every other style combined to one
Again, this is much like Kas'im. He mastered every style, and we will assume that he was smart and used them all to his advantage in round one against Bane. He was being overwhelmed. In round two, he won the saber combat because he had a knowledge of Bane's technique (being the one that trained him) whereas the converse was not true. Bane did not experience anything along Jar'Ki with Kas'im.
coupled with Vaders speed
I disagree. Vader may have been fast, but compared to Bane, who was described as moving as a blur, to fast for the the padawans and Sirak to see, and who was fast enough to overwhelm Kas'im in part one of their duel? I think he has the speed disadvantage.
incredible power,
Vader has power, given. Maybe moreso than Bane. But take Luke's battle against Vader in ROTJ.
Luke was the shorter, frailer, and generally the smaller oponent. Luke I believe is something like 5'7, Vader is something like 7'0. "Mini-me" was somehow able to keep up "with Andre the Giant"(Janus copyright). Bane is tremendously physically strong, not as strong as Vader, true, but a combination of dexterity and sheer muscular "powa!" (which Bane apparently had a lot of) contribute to what we view as strength.
Bane would essentiallye fighting a much more advanced version of himself
I disagree. Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im in round one mainly due to his strength in the force, prodigious talent, great muscle power, and tremendous speed/dexterity. From the evidence thus presented so far, I believe Bane is the better duelist.
with a broader knowledge of battle, styles, and
Bane managed to best Kas'im, who also possessed a great knowledge of all battles and styles.
What I am trying to get at, is he fought a duelist who probably knew almost everything to lightsaber combat and nearly bested him. It was only because of factors such as Kas'ims knowledge on Bane's technique, and Bane's lack of knowledge on Kas'im's "alien style" that made him gain the disadvantage in round 2. Otherwise, Bane was the better duelist
Given Bane's resume, I think he can pull of a victory. Although, Vader will definately be challenging, Bane would win.
And really which Darth Vader is this? Post or Pre suit?
Good question. I initially though ROTS Anakin, but it seems you are considering OT.
Originally posted by Sexyback
And I really don't see how Vader would contend with this kind of speed:[b]'He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bolted up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channelled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin.'
- PoD, PG 170. [/B]
For an instant none of the spectators [force users] was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.
I love how people ignore ^. Really, Bane's just too damn skilled for Vader, Vader's a slow piece of crap, Bane would decimate him in seconds.
]Ah, no problem then. I do not think that Kas'im is "the perfect warrior." But he is definately one of the best. Bane being able to keep up with him in only a period of 1-4 years speaks greatly for B's prodigy. He was able to complete with one of the bests in lightsaber dueling within such a short time. A warrior who essentially knew more than Bane was unable to best him with his mastery of the "seven" forms of dueling.
One thing before I go, where is it exactly stated that it was "years" between Bane's initial start as a Sith and his taking the title Darth, I always thought it was months.
He won round two due to his uber force abilities. Round one, he was actually dominating Kas'im in lightsaber. I think that was what "Donkey Kong" was hinting at.
No, he won because as DK put it he was just "too strong in the force" for Kas'im too compete.
I do not have the passage with me. But remember when Bane was knocking on Kas'im's door? Before Bane could get the second knock in, (which would approximately take 0.5/0.25 seconds) Kas'im opened the door and pulled Bane in. He completely curbstomped a gargantuan rancour within a minute at max. And he was not even warmed up at that point.
That was force speed nothing to really be impressed about.
If Bane was capable of matching someone who spent decades learning the arts of the saber, and honing these skills to be included in the list of "the best," then he has seen enough of every form of lightsaber combat, from an opponent of incredible fitness and strength. Bane has seen, experienced, and fought in enough lightsaber combat to best someone on the level of Vader.
Whoa, he does not have the experience of Vader, he has only been in ONE actual "Lightsaber" duel (im not counting the stupid poison swords) I fail too see how that gives him the experience edge over Vader, and he has seen Kas'im who blends the styles into a custom, he hasn't seen a complete Master of one form like Yoda with Ataru or Dooku with Makashi.
Unpredictability should not be an issue either. Bane lost because the form of fighting Kas'im employed was something he was unfamiliar with, whereas Kas'im was familiar with everything Bane knew . Thus the premise that Bane can only beat predictable opponents using predictable styles is false.
No, he lost because he panicked. Had he done as before and simply let the force guide him he would have won. My point was when he see's something he's not totally familiar with he loses focus, starts to think about what he's gonna do next, starts think about possible combinations and panics.
Take ROTS for expample. Neither Anakin or Obi Wan could best each other in ROTS because they both knew each others styles as intimately as two lovers would know each other (lol, perhaps this is true between Ani and Obi in another sense, but lets not get into that.) Were they both predictable to other opponents? No. They just knew alot about each others lightsaber styles.
It was more then them knowing each other inside and out, it was Anakin in the state of mind he was in. Had it been anyone else and had Padme not been there mostly anybody would have been pwned.
Vader does not know Bane's attacks. Bane does not know Vader's attacks. They are both unpredictable.
Except Vader does. He uses Djem So, and sets of Djem So that he learned from Kas'im, and Im not 100% sure but I don't even think he learned the most advanced forms of it which Vader unfortunately for him does know, and many other styles most dangerous forms.
Never disagreed with you here. Well sort of. Dooku is stronger than Anakin in force attacks, and in a neutral arena where he is allowed to use this talent to the max, and is not beholden to a "cardboard cut out" lightsaber battle, he would win.
Don't bring this up, its already been proved Dooku stopped caring about the "plan" when Obi and Anakin started to get serious.
I disagree. Vader may have been fast, but compared to Bane, who was described as moving as a blur, to fast for the the padawans and Sirak to see, and who was fast enough to overwhelm Kas'im in part one of their duel? I think he has the speed disadvantage.
Meh, force speed. And lets not forget that they where "students" I had this same argument with Escape about how because they are such bums, which the NSO largely was consisted of, its expected they wouldn't be able to keep up. However Vader is not a Sith Student.
Luke was the shorter, frailer, and generally the smaller oponent. Luke I believe is something like 5'7, Vader is something like 7'0. "Mini-me" was somehow able to keep up "with Andre the Giant"(Janus copyright). Bane is tremendously physically strong, not as strong as Vader, true, but a combination of dexterity and sheer muscular "powa!" (which Bane apparently had a lot of) contribute to what we view as strength.
We have to take into account that Vader wasn't trying to kill his son or fight back really, and Luke was going off on a Dark Side burst.
I disagree. Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im in round one mainly due to his strength in the force, prodigious talent, great muscle power, and tremendous speed/dexterity. From the evidence thus presented so far, I believe Bane is the better duelist.
Kas'im was still the better duelist. Analogy time! If a averaged sized sword fighter who has matered whatever his blade style is fights a guy who is physically stronger, twice his size and simply swings and the weaker master his overwhelmed by his power does that make the bigger guy necessarily better? No. Same for Bane and Kas'im only add the force into theat equation.
Now we look at Vader who is his physical superior, and still his superior skill in the force, and we have an even match with Vader taking it by having 20 years of experience on him.
Good question. I initially though ROTS Anakin, but it seems you are considering OT.
Im talking about OT Vader, ROTS Anakin would RAPE Bane, He has every advantage over Bane, Now OT Vader Bane doesn't have a chance since he does have a speed advantage, and maybe but Im still doubting a force advantage, but how far is Bane willingly to go for a victory? We've seen Vader shove a lightsaber through his own chest to kill anther, Vader is willing to stop at nothing to win. Is Bane?
Originally posted by darthsith19
But this is a lightsaber battle only. And Vader in his suit isn't Vader in his prime, ROTS Vader is. Lucas says OT Vader is 80% of Sidious and that ROTS Vader is 100% of Sidious.
I think you are seriously misinterpreting the statement. ROTS Vader was nowhere near as powerful as Sidious, at least not yet. Vader at his PEAK would be twice as powerful as ROTJ Sidious, that's all. Furthermore, Vader was no pushover in saber combat. He did defeat many jedi, and darth Maul. Bane was good with a lightsaber but not that good, not to mention your control of the force is a key determinant in your skill with a saber, so while Bane's control is incredible, Vader's control is better.
Originally posted by Sexyback
And I really don't see how Vader would contend with this kind of speed:'He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bolted up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channelled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin.'
For an instant none of the spectators [force users] was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see. - PoD, PG 170.
Again, there is no way that Vader could contend with this kind of speed, it would be too much for him. Bane defeats him in about 2 seconds, I'd say. Just watch the Palpatine/Saesee Tinn fight, and replace Palpatine with Bane, and Vader with Saesee Tinn. That is what would happen.
Here let me show you why you fail: Your seriously putting Darth f*cking Vader on the level of Sith Apprentice Sirak who doesn't even have a lightsaber. If Bane's godlike speed is sooo uber why didn't he use it on Kas'im someone on his level. Its a easy thing to own opponents who are your inferiors. Which the NSO losers were compared to Bane. However, as I said Vader is not some Sith student. Oh and you still suck Planet.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Here let me show you why you fail: Your seriously putting Darth f*cking Vader on the level of Sith Apprentice Sirak who doesn't even have a lightsaber.
Nope, wrong, I'm putting him below Sirak's level. And it's nice how you constantly point out that the students didn't actually train with a lightsaber as if it's even slightly relevant, when it's not, it's completely irrelevant, the training sabers they used were as good as the real thing, it didn't affect their training in any way. So stop bringing it up.
If Bane's godlike speed is sooo uber why didn't he use it on Kas'im someone on his level.
Perhaps because Kas'im is as fast.
Its a easy thing to own opponents who are your inferiors. Which the NSO losers were compared to Bane.
The NSO were perhaps the most martial order of force suers ever, how did they suck? They were only lacking in true sith philosophy and knowledge of ancient sith rituals. That's it!
However, as I said Vader is not some Sith student.
There were only two sith...
Oh and you still suck my mum Planet.
Hey hey.