Classic Beyonder VS Full Power Spectre

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Bobby D, let's take a good look at the scan.

Spectre became [b]Omnipotence Not just Omniscience. Omniscience , by definition, is just the ability to SEE and KNOW ALL...that's it ! Omniscience is NOT becoming one with all, as I already PROVED in my above post (please click the links, they will provide you with the correct definitions of Omniscience)

GalacticStorm will argue that Spectre became Omniscience, not Omnipotence, he is INCORRECT....I already proved why.

If you read the scan:

Spectre says:

"Within ME the BIRTH OF STARS...THE PRIMAL EXPLOSION SPREADS OUTWARDS.I AM EVERY PARTICLE OF IT !"

"Galaxies COSMOS, UNIVERSES..FILLING EVERY PART OF ME !"

Spectre BECAME ALL there is !

Becoming ALL THERE IS grants you automatic OMNIPOTENCE AND OMNISCIENCE, because you ARE ALL THERE IS, therefore you CONTROL AND KNOW ALL THERE IS !

Watch GS try to argue that this is "just hyperbole as well 🙄 😆

Now as for your other question:

Consider that Spectre became all there is....DC's Multiverse (or Omniverse as some will attempt to argue)...so what ?

At the time of Classic Beyonder, the Marvel Multiverse was all there was. Classic Beyonder has power millions of times greater than that of the Multiverse, which was all there was

So....Spectre equalled all there is, and Classic Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than all there was....

You do the math ! [/B]

Lord Urizen doing some serious OWNING!

It doesn't matter though, the intransigency will continue.

Originally posted by Galan007
We can assume all we want.

I'm just going by whats actually stated on that particular pannel.

And the scan I provided depicts Spectre with the greatest ammount of power he has ever achieved on pannel.

✅

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spectre becomes one with Creation, making him more powerful than he has ever been before. He is connected with all that exists.

[b]Omniversal telepathy is not the same thing as becoming one with all creation.

Omniversal Telepathy < Becoming One With All That Is

Get it GS ?

Spectre did not just SEE ALL...he BECAME ALL.....

There is no higher power than being the most powerful thing in existance for a one time being.

I agree 👆

Good thing the narration about Classic Beyonder does not contradict the on-panel feats 😉

You DO remember that Classic Beyonder was only accessing a tiny fragment of his power throughout the entire Secret Wars saga, right ? 😬

You also remember how he played with the Marvel Multiverse (which was all that existed at the time) like a toy, at low power, and still had so much left over it was rediculous.....

1) Show scan

2) It's called a simile 🙄

3) It's very obvious when narration is exxagerating, and when narration is sincere:

"Wolverine is as fast AS lightning"

"Classic Beyonder retains his power which ISmore than millions of times the multiverse"

If you can't decipher the difference, then I can't help you any further....

Spectre scan:

Combining oneself with all that exists is surely a display of power.....

Beyonder scan:

Attaining full access to your infinite power is surely a display of power

Again:

🙄

That's a good idea....haven't you done the same for Pheonix ? 😬 [/B]

Awesome reply! toot

Originally posted by Galan007
To be fair, Beyonder allowed Doom to take his powers.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If thats the truth then show the scan which actually states the point.

meh ... not to mention Doom was being KEPT ALIVE by Beyonder during this crucial time.

Do you know why?

Because Beyonder coerced that entire event.

This Doctor Doom, that was in Secret Wars the first series,

that WASN'T really Doom,(well technically it was but read) that was a Future self of Doom plucked from a point in the Timestream that DID NOT EXIST YET, courtesy of the Beyonder,

Not only does Beyonder use a Doom from a NON-Existent Future to fight in the Secret Wars saga, (which now explains HOW Doom was able to Manipulate Galactus's vast technology)

but the funny thing is Doom's body was already DEAD, he had been dead since FF #260, when the FF, Doom and Silver Surfer took on Terrax.

The insane part is,

Beyonder plucked Doom from a Future that Beyonder himself was going to CREATE for Doom FAR AFTER the Secret Wars series.

This is ALL well into the SECRET WARS II series by the way,

Now Beyonder sends Doom back in time to the Secret Wars drama that was already played out, just to re-install Doom's mind/spirit with his original body,

Beyonder speeds up that seperate event in time (Secret Wars I)and ends up in the NOW, with a fully revived and renewd DOOM.

Beyonder enjoyed setting up humans, with the notion of control and power, just to see what they would do with it....it happened several times.

Here is Doom himself, recounting the Event

Another INCREDIBLE Beyonder FEAT:

The Full Story behind the Doom incident:

Beyonder took Doom from a Future that DID NOT Exist, a Future that Beyonder himself had to Create.

Because Doom's body was Dead and his mind was elsewhere in that man's body during the Secret Wars I series.

Beyonder couldn't find Doom anywhere on the physical plane or the astral, so Beyonder plucked him from a Future that DID NOT Exist because well....Doom was DEAD.

If Beyonder would not have sent Doom back to the FIRST Secret Wars during the Secret Wars II series, the Timestream would have shattered, and Marvel would have been ERASED.

Beyonder plucks Doom from the Future to place him in the Secret Wars series version 1.

When Beyonder plucked Doom from the future...it was a future that had not taken place yet (NON-EXISTENT)

This created a Time-Loop that could shatter the entire TimeStream and ALL that came before it

So Beyonder had to re-create Doom's original body.

Beyonder Merged Doom's body with Doom's mind.

Then he sent Doom back to the FIRST Secret Wars to allow that to play out thus repairing that Time-Loop

"clear the area before the Loop is closed, and Doom Re-appears"

"Beyonder created a Self-Perpetuating Circle in Time"...

To fill in the Space in Time that NEVER Existed.

Had Beyonder killed Doom without re-introducing him to the Past,

the TimeStream as we know it would have SHATTERED, (ALL of MARVEL)

Because Beyonder took him from a Future that did NOT EXIST.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Couple of questions and thank for your response. 🙂

You left out omnipresent also when describing Spectre ^^.

Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

If Spectre suddenly became all there is AND Beyonder was all there was, doesn't "All there is" = "All there was"? 😕

The answer is that infinity = infinity does not always hold true. This is because there are different levels of infinity.

For example, you can have an infinite number of integers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.). In math, you can have convergence, where an infinite sum equals a real number.

Ok let me explain it this way. If you have a 3 dimensional object, when breaking it down into two dimensional planes sandwiched on top of one another, it could be said that you need an infinite number of planes in order to make up the 3d object, and the 3d object could have a defined height.

Check out this link, if you got Flash 8:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

It explains the idea of multiple levels of reality stacked on top of each other, alternate timelines, etc..

Originally posted by BobbyD
Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

NOT in Marvel Comics:

Cosmic Cubes, Kubik and Kosmos explain:

"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of Infinity, there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"

Dr Strange explains:

"the very Concept of Infinity is relative, Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition, there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numberse

"One "Infinity" is included within a larger "Infinity"

Originally posted by Kutulu
The answer is that infinity = infinity does not always hold true. This is because there are different levels of infinity.

For example, you can have an infinite number of integers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.). In math, you can have convergence, where an infinite sum equals a real number.

Ok let me explain it this way. If you have a 3 dimensional object, when breaking it down into two dimensional planes sandwiched on top of one another, it could be said that you need an infinite number of planes in order to make up the 3d object, and the 3d object could have a defined height.

Check out this link, if you got Flash 8:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

It explains the idea of multiple levels of reality stacked on top of each other, alternate timelines, etc..

Correct. But in your example, ONLY infinity does not equal infinity because there is a finite/definate amount as you see it. .....because we'd never know where either stops on the scale towards infinity. I would this to be true, IF I saw it the same way.

But this is not the case, (assuming that Spectre could be God/The Presence for a moment in time) we're speaking of The Supreme Being. Spectre with the embodiment of ALL of God's powers AT THE FULLEST LEVELS is undefeatable......if Spectre uses them correctly, which is another argument altogether.

Let me put it this way: Jim Carrey in Bruce Almighty. This is analogous. ....could do anything he wanted. ....is just as strong as Pre-retconned Beyonder if that makes any sense.

Thus, draw. You pose compelling, good points, but I just don't see it any other way.

God in your high school gym, is still as powerful as the same God of the Milky Way Galaxy. 2 different realities-yet same power amount of power in each (actually, the same) being.

If you disagree then you're ultimately saying God does not equal God. ...and what you're ultimately saying is pre-retconned Beyonder is more powerful than the Presence, which....which simply cannot be.

I know in the comic world, things like this can be left to interpretation, but if I am wrong, than it should not be this way.

😬

Originally posted by BobbyD
Couple of questions and thank for your response. 🙂

You left out omnipresent also when describing Spectre ^^.

Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

If Spectre suddenly became all there is AND Beyonder was all there was, doesn't "All there is" = "All there was"? 😕

I will help you with your dilemma:

On Spectre's behalf:

1) He became Omnipotent, (and yes, Omnipresent), meaning he became and existed as everything that was DC (multiverse, DC has not yet shown to contain an omniverse)

2) Even if DC has an omniverse, there is no concrete proof that DC's multiverse is infinite. DC's multiverse may be limitted in terms of space and dimension

3) Being omnipotent or omnipresent doesn't necessarily you are infinite. Spectre may have infinite power (or strength) at his disposal, but if DC's multiverse is limitted, then his omnipotence only applies to everything that is DC....his omnipotence will not surpass beyond that, because there is nothing beyond that...

However, within his multiverse, which he became one with, he can do whatever he wants to it, however he wants to [/i]it[/i]

4) No matter what, Spectre is still subject to the laws and permission of the Presence. He cannot act without the Presence's approval. Even if he has infinite power at this point, he cannot defy the Presence.

On Beyonder's behalf

1) Classic Beyonder not only had infinite power at his disposal, he could do whatever the hell he wanted.

2) Living Tribunal could do nothing against Classic Beyonder, despite his own immense power (mind you, LT is far more powerful than the Infinity Gems, yet he didn't stand a chance against Classic Beyonder)

3) Classic Beyonder violated Marvel's entire cosmology. He f*cked around with Marvel like it was a toy, and Marvel's existance (which was the multiverse at that time) was 100% at his mercy.

4) Classic Beyonder is bound to no one's rules. TOAA, who is said to be the comic book writer, is the only being who can do ne thing to Classic Beyonder. Since TOAA's reasoning, involvement, and dominion are unclear, we could only conlude that TOAA either:

-stayed out of the Secret Wars for whatver reason

-made Classic Beyonder do all these things, because he...created Classic Beyonder and the Secret Wars saga lol

5) Classic Beyonder did all of the things he did, with a tiny fraction of his power, and even though he intentionally and dramatically LIMITTED HIMSELF he STILL was too powerful for Marvel's entire Multiverse !

Reminder: Multiverse was ALL THAT EXISTED at the time....there was no "omniverse" in Marvel at the time, the Multiverse represented ALL of Marvel's existance, and Classic Beyonder has power millions of times greater than Marvel's...entirety....

Get it ?

6) Classic Beyonder's only weakness was his desire to find out....what desire was....

😆

Originally posted by BobbyD
If you disagree then you're ultimately saying God does not equal God.

God does not always equal God... ❌

Ahura Mazda (from Dawn) is no where on par with the Presence from DC comics....Yahweh from Vertigo (another God) is not on par with TOAA or Presence, all he did was create several universes....

It depends what you mean by "god"

If you mean "supreme being" it depends what they are supreme being of....

I am the supreme being of my dorm.....so what ? How would I fare against the dictator of China ?

Originally posted by BobbyD
...and what you're ultimately saying is pre-retconned Beyonder is more powerful than the Presence, which....which simply cannot be.

Why not ?

What exactly is the Presence? What exactly is Classic Beyonder.... ?

We don't truly know who is more powerful, in fact, I'm quite convinced that since TOAA is the comic book writer, and since Presence is a comic book concept, that TOAA is techincally more powerful....but that's another debate, I'd rather leave alone

My head hurts. 😖