@Darth Sexy
Here's a news flash for the reading impaired. You claim he didn't reach his potential in NJO, while I simply stated that at the very least, Luke might have reached his potential at NJO/DN. It wasn't a mistake, but you aren't very good at reading comprehension.
To bad you directly stated DN. Here's exactly what you said, "By DN(excluding LOTF since by then its too obvious), Luke has trained with Sidious' holocrons, Sidious, his dark side compendium, the fallanassi, etc." I don't see anything about NJO in there. Great job, liar.
Where's your evidence for him being anywhere near his peak? With 90 years of training Sidious had still not reached his potential. With 80 years of training Dooku still had not reached his potential. What makes you think that Luke is anywhere close to reaching his potential after less than 30 years of knowledge of the Force, with most of that being subpar training?
Quality>Quantity
Guy X with more raw potential can study less than Guy Y with less raw potential, and still learn more.
Where did you get this crappy idea? Potential has NOTHING to do with the number of techniques that you know. And note that Sidious has his fair share of more powerful/higher quality techniques because of his willingness to use the Darkside in a fight.
Well gee, could it be that he's NOT a sith? Hmmm..
Exactly my point. Sith have access to a larger number of offensive Force powers, giving Sidious a massive advantage in a fight against any lightsider.
Anakin by ROTS was the best raw saber duelist in the galaxy, having studied only 12 years as you say it, while the likes of Mace and Yoda(who are better because they are more experienced) have had 3x times more training. Thanks for proving my point.
Read my first sentence again. It was 13 years by ROTS.
1. What the heck is a 'raw' saber duelist?
2. Anakin is weaker than Mace or Yoda overall because of having less experince, which is exactly the same reason that Luke is weaker than Sidious.
3. Anakin was about eqaul to Obi-wan. Obi-wan had about 3 times more training time than Anakin. Obi-wan has less potential than Sidious, as Yoda stated that Obi-wan would never be powerful enough to defeat Sidious. So logically, Anakin advanced somewhere less than 3 times as fast as Sidious. Assuming that Luke and Anakin have equal potentials they would have advanced at the same rate. So by that same line of thinking, Luke is 30 years would advance to a level of power somewhere less than what Sidious would do in 90 years. Sidious has MORE THAN 90 years of training and so therefor is more powerful.
And once again you missed the entire point.
Elaborate then.
And again you misseed the point.
Then elaborate.
Right well that's your opinion and as much as it means to you, it means very little to me and anyone else here without a valid argument(which you have yet to provide). However Luke has shown enough in the 15+ books before DN to be well ahead of Sidious.
Riiiight. I'm pretty sure my opinion means a tad bit more then yours. However, this isn't my opinion, it's an argument based on fact. You ignoring the facts in no way detracts from my argument.
@Lightsnake
Once again: Luke doesn't use Force Storms. Irrelevant point. Moreover, you ignored a lot there. Espoecially with the whole ground battle first and Luke clearing out the top on his own
I thought I had addressed this earlier. Ah well, my mistake.
1. However, when was he ever shown fighting a lot of them on the ground? I've been searching through my e-book (avaliable at http://www.swtimeline.ru/?main=bNJO since you no longer have a physical copy) and I can't find any instance in which he killed a notable number of Yuuzhan Vong while on the ground.
2. Could you clearify what the 'top' is? Is it the top of the citadel? Well yes, he did fight his way to Shimrra, but from what I can tell he didn't kill everyone on ths ship.
I find a more likely number of Vong kills by Luke to be somewhere between 800 or 900 to perhaps as high as 1500. Not much more than 1500 if any higher than that at all.
3. Luke not using techniques like the Force Storm is a large portion of my reasoning for Sidious winning in a fight. Sidious is willing to use ALL techniques, including highly offensive Darkside powers. Luke is not, which would give Sidious a major advantage in a fight.
As pure avatars, Luke= Palpatine. As apart from that, Luke grew far stronger. GL also confirmed at top, Luke'd be twice as strong as Palpatine
I'm afraid I don't fully understand this whole avatar business. Care to explain it to me?
Ok, so he did it with two other people.
Seriously, Glentract, stop this Force storm thing. Luke doesn't use techniques that require you becoming one with the Darkside
Exactly my point. "Luke doesn't use techniques that require you becoming one with the Darkside " This gives Sidious a MAJOR advantage in a battle.
Because Shimrra's amhistaff dealt the almost fatal wound?
And Force lightning doesn't work on Shimrra....unlike Palpatine, Luke can access the Unifying Force
1. Okay, so say we drop the Shimrra portion of the fight and state that Luke can kill a thousand Vong without need of healing from others to stay alive, it doesn't put him beyond Sidious on it's own.
2. Why won't Sidious' Force Lightning work on Vong? It's my understandint that Lightning working on Vong is because it is a physical manifestation of the Force.
....did you turn into a Palpatine fan overnight? Seriously, this is getting odd...I guess I should be flattered and proud.
I admit, you have done a great job arguing for Sidious in the past. However, I just see Sidious defeating NJO Luke in a fight.
I don't have the NJO books, anymore.....it may've been in Vision of the Future or Spectre of the Past, check those?
I gave you a link earlier to a site with all of the NJO books in e-book. You could check there.
Ummm...neither of those books were written by Stackpole. They aren't even NJO books. I assume you mean the Dark Tide books. I can't find it in the DarK Tide 1 e-book and I can't find it anywhere in my Dark Tide 2 copy. I can't get the Dark Tide 2 e-book to work though. Maybe you could give it a try on your computer.
Can you honestly prove that? Luke's had ages to reach his potential and giving his constant struggle and study?
Luke has had less than a third of the time that Sidious has had and he has access to FAR less knowledge. Added to his lack of guidance over the years and there is absolutely zero reason to believe that Luke is anywhere close to reaching his potential as of NJO, especially since he gains a dramatic amount of power in the near decade after TUF and the DN books.
Palp knows just about everything. However in raw power, Luke>Palpatine
This is like saying that AOTC Anakin would defeat ROTS Sidious. Anakin had more raw power than Sidious even as early as AOTC, but he wouldn't last 10 seconds against Sidious in a fight at this time.
*RANDOM INSERT*
I just had a bit of a theory about DE Sidious' power. You might have heard my earlier theory about Sidious eventually mastering midiclorians like his master did, which would get him effectively unlimited power. This fits because Lumiya described Sidious' power as unlimited, even in comparison to Vader (guy with the most raw power ever). Lumiya was awed by Sidious' power, yet she was willing to engage LOTF Luke (who has a good 15 years more experince and training than NJO Luke) in combat.
Okay. So here's another thought. GL stated that Anakin had 160% of Sidious' potential before Mustafar. So Luke would also have 160% of Sidious' potential, minus what he lost when Vader chopped off his hand. Now, even if Luke has more raw power than Sidious naturally, which GL confirmed, Sidious could still have more power because of the people he was draining on Byss. Do you understand what I am saying? Anyway, it was just an idea for consideration.
*END RANDOM INSERT*
The Jedi Durge killed by dropping in lava might have benefited
LOL! That's true, it certainly would have helped there. However, the Jedi Durge killed weren't exactly what I would call power. There no where in the same league as NJO Luke or DE Sidious.
Read the DE audiobook? There's some crazy stuff-Luke destroys an army of advanced battle droids with a wave of his hand
Read an audiobook? Hah, I'm just messing with you.
Seriously though, I don't have a copy of the audiobook. And destroying an army of droids is no where near tossing around capital ships. Not calling you a liar, but I can't find any other source that shows Luke tossing around capital ships.
lentract....use some logic. The heart of the Force? The all mighty force itself?
Seriously, becoming one in the heart of the force itself. This made him the 'very essence of the immovable object'
Upon further thinking, I've realized that DN Luke did this feat, not NJO Luke, so it can't be argued in for Luke in this instance.
Glentract, there shouldn't be a debate. Luke and Palp were borderline equals in their top forms...they fight again, they'll go straight back into that and Luke will win. Palpatine didn't use the Force and neither did Luke because they knew they were both beyond that, and 'Twin divinites, as different as night and day."
I'm the last person to downplay Palpatine, but he's second to Luke. Luke's simply not as ostentacious
What is all of this about 'divinities', 'top forms', and not using the Force?
Also, it's my understanding that Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin were required to overpower Sidious.