NJO Luke vs. DE Sidious

Exar Kun advanced to a level of power in 6 months, Glentract. Luke's thirty years, given his potential and skill? Not unlikely

Once again: Luke doesn't use Force Storms. Irrelevant point. Moreover, you ignored a lot there. Espoecially with the whole ground battle first and Luke clearing out the top on his own

I thought I had addressed this earlier. Ah well, my mistake.

1. However, when was he ever shown fighting a lot of them on the ground? I've been searching through my e-book (avaliable at http://www.swtimeline.ru/?main=bNJO since you no longer have a physical copy) and I can't find any instance in which he killed a notable number of Yuuzhan Vong while on the ground.

2. Could you clearify what the 'top' is? Is it the top of the citadel? Well yes, he did fight his way to Shimrra, but from what I can tell he didn't kill everyone on ths ship.

I find a more likely number of Vong kills by Luke to be somewhere between 800 or 900 to perhaps as high as 1500. Not much more than 1500 if any higher than that at all.

3. Luke not using techniques like the Force Storm is a large portion of my reasoning for Sidious winning in a fight. Sidious is willing to use ALL techniques, including highly offensive Darkside powers. Luke is not, which would give Sidious a major advantage in a fight.

As pure avatars, Luke= Palpatine. As apart from that, Luke grew far stronger. GL also confirmed at top, Luke'd be twice as strong as Palpatine

I'm afraid I don't fully understand this whole avatar business. Care to explain it to me?

Ok, so he did it with two other people.
Seriously, Glentract, stop this Force storm thing. Luke doesn't use techniques that require you becoming one with the Darkside

Exactly my point. "Luke doesn't use techniques that require you becoming one with the Darkside " This gives Sidious a MAJOR advantage in a battle.

Because Shimrra's amhistaff dealt the almost fatal wound?
And Force lightning doesn't work on Shimrra....unlike Palpatine, Luke can access the Unifying Force

1. Okay, so say we drop the Shimrra portion of the fight and state that Luke can kill a thousand Vong without need of healing from others to stay alive, it doesn't put him beyond Sidious on it's own.

2. Why won't Sidious' Force Lightning work on Vong? It's my understandint that Lightning working on Vong is because it is a physical manifestation of the Force.

....did you turn into a Palpatine fan overnight? Seriously, this is getting odd...I guess I should be flattered and proud.

I admit, you have done a great job arguing for Sidious in the past. However, I just see Sidious defeating NJO Luke in a fight.

I don't have the NJO books, anymore.....it may've been in Vision of the Future or Spectre of the Past, check those?

I gave you a link earlier to a site with all of the NJO books in e-book. You could check there.

Ummm...neither of those books were written by Stackpole. They aren't even NJO books. I assume you mean the Dark Tide books. I can't find it in the DarK Tide 1 e-book and I can't find it anywhere in my Dark Tide 2 copy. I can't get the Dark Tide 2 e-book to work though. Maybe you could give it a try on your computer.

Can you honestly prove that? Luke's had ages to reach his potential and giving his constant struggle and study?

Luke has had less than a third of the time that Sidious has had and he has access to FAR less knowledge. Added to his lack of guidance over the years and there is absolutely zero reason to believe that Luke is anywhere close to reaching his potential as of NJO, especially since he gains a dramatic amount of power in the near decade after TUF and the DN books.

Palp knows just about everything. However in raw power, Luke>Palpatine

This is like saying that AOTC Anakin would defeat ROTS Sidious. Anakin had more raw power than Sidious even as early as AOTC, but he wouldn't last 10 seconds against Sidious in a fight at this time.

*RANDOM INSERT*

I just had a bit of a theory about DE Sidious' power. You might have heard my earlier theory about Sidious eventually mastering midiclorians like his master did, which would get him effectively unlimited power. This fits because Lumiya described Sidious' power as unlimited, even in comparison to Vader (guy with the most raw power ever). Lumiya was awed by Sidious' power, yet she was willing to engage LOTF Luke (who has a good 15 years more experince and training than NJO Luke) in combat.

Okay. So here's another thought. GL stated that Anakin had 160% of Sidious' potential before Mustafar. So Luke would also have 160% of Sidious' potential, minus what he lost when Vader chopped off his hand. Now, even if Luke has more raw power than Sidious naturally, which GL confirmed, Sidious could still have more power because of the people he was draining on Byss. Do you understand what I am saying? Anyway, it was just an idea for consideration.

*END RANDOM INSERT*

The Jedi Durge killed by dropping in lava might have benefited

LOL! That's true, it certainly would have helped there. However, the Jedi Durge killed weren't exactly what I would call power. There no where in the same league as NJO Luke or DE Sidious.

Read the DE audiobook? There's some crazy stuff-Luke destroys an army of advanced battle droids with a wave of his hand

Read an audiobook? Hah, I'm just messing with you.

Seriously though, I don't have a copy of the audiobook. And destroying an army of droids is no where near tossing around capital ships. Not calling you a liar, but I can't find any other source that shows Luke tossing around capital ships.

lentract....use some logic. The heart of the Force? The all mighty force itself?
Seriously, becoming one in the heart of the force itself. This made him the 'very essence of the immovable object'

Upon further thinking, I've realized that DN Luke did this feat, not NJO Luke, so it can't be argued in for Luke in this instance.

Glentract, there shouldn't be a debate. Luke and Palp were borderline equals in their top forms...they fight again, they'll go straight back into that and Luke will win. Palpatine didn't use the Force and neither did Luke because they knew they were both beyond that, and 'Twin divinites, as different as night and day."

I'm the last person to downplay Palpatine, but he's second to Luke. Luke's simply not as ostentacious

What is all of this about 'divinities', 'top forms', and not using the Force?

Also, it's my understanding that Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin were required to overpower Sidious. [/B]

How is this even a debate anymore? If you're still having problems reading Glentract or you're still stuck on EOD arguments, read the NJO novels. Luke>Palpatine by NJO. The author inconsistencies for LOTF make him look bad.

Not to get in this debate, or anything, LS, but Lumiya betrayed Sidious because she knew she had "zero" chance against him anywhere else - and you and I both know that it's not an exaggeration. She corrupted the clones and the genetic source material used to create the clones. And I doubt that someone could live solely off midichlorians and not the rest of the cells and genetic structure in one's body. Remember: Plagueis himself mastered the technique and Sidious was able to kill him nonetheless - which was the "ironic" part.

Luke would completely destroy Sidious in saber combat, a Force battle would be closer, but Luke still wins rather handily.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Luke would completely destroy Sidious in saber combat, a Force battle would be closer, but Luke still wins rather handily.

[bitter] Not LotF Luke... [/bitter]

I'd like to smack the authors of LotF in the face with my steel-toe boot. That entire fight scene just corrupted the series.

Just to give people some feets luke has. I got these off wookiepedia.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker

Though he received little training, Luke Skywalker became a wise and powerful Jedi Master. His skills with both the Force and lightsaber were exceptional. Luke had the Force potential to become what his father was supposed to become—the Force potential of the Chosen One. Luke Skywalker was one of, if not the, most powerful Jedi to ever exist, as he demonstrated powers and abilities that greatly surpassed even Grand Master Yoda. Some examples where his skills are shown include:

During the Battle of Yavin, Luke managed to destroy the first Death Star by letting the Force tell him when to fire his proton torpedoes, while traveling at very high speeds, and not knowing the distance to the port, and having no previous knowledge of proton torpedoes and their abilities. One should note that Luke only had little training with the Force at this time.
Without any guidance except a handbook left by Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke Skywalker successfully built his first lightsaber, merely three years after he was first introduced to the Force, and undergoing formal training for less than a year.
Luke Skywalker's use of Form V is probably as much instinctive as trained. On Bespin, Luke revealed that he was an extraordinarily gifted duelist after only one brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi and a short time of study with Yoda. After that fateful duel, Luke studied some lightsaber skills from Kenobi's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, it was Luke's unparalleled aptitude which contributed in the impossible advancement of his skills. Onboard the second Death Star, Luke mirrored Darth Vader's own Form V technique and responded with his own furious demonstration of Form V's raw power. Observing swordsmen such as Palpatine might be astonished at such instantaneous learning in a lightsaber duel. Finally, Luke was able to duel Vader on an even footing, and defeated the experienced Dark Lord. However, Luke's particular form of lightsaber combat may in the end be something entirely new, with traces of Form III, Form IV and Form V mixed together with his own techniques. It is doubtful that Kenobi and Yoda had time to actually teach him the finer points of the combat Forms. Just like most other things about being a Jedi Knight, Luke probably had to figure out whole new fighting styles to replace the ones lost during the Great Jedi Purge. It is also probable that the Jensaarai would have passed on knowledge of the lightsaber forms of the Old Jedi Order since their founders were former Jedi Knights and Padawans.
Luke applied the very opposite of Dun Möch onboard the second Death Star by infusing love into Darth Vader's heart through spoken words. The young Jedi was successful — Anakin Skywalker ultimately redeemed himself and brought balance to the Force.
Luke safely landed himself, Isolder, and Isolder's fighter from a free fall drop from orbit with the Force.
During the Battle of Dathomir, Luke flew the Millennium Falcon single-handedly using only the Force, manipulating its controls and operating it with a skill that not even a full crew could manage.
Also during the Battle of Dathomir, Luke regenerated from an almost fatal Force lightning attack and fall in the span of several hours.
Luke managed to land a crashing Imperial Star Destroyer on Coruscant by manipulating the repulsors through the Force, mirroring a similar achievement by his father towards the end of the Clone Wars.
Luke was able to knock down AT-ATs easily by tampering with them through the Force, as well as absorbing the initial cannon blasts from the AT-AT, before deflecting the rest with his lightsaber.
Luke also destroyed an army of advanced battle droids just by waving his hand, thereby destroying the internal components of the whole army of droids. This Force power was first manifested by Jedi Master Arca Jeth during the Great Droid Revolution. Even then, with proper instruction, it was a difficult power to master. However, this power apparently came naturally to Luke.
Luke managed to defeat the reborn Emperor Palpatine in a lightsaber duel, slicing off his hand with cho mai. It should be noted that Palpatine was perhaps one of the best swordsmen in lightsaber history, and even Yoda, Luke's own master, was unable to defeat him. Leia, who was watching the fight, could hardly see the movements of Luke and the Emperor, but she sensed waves of power generating from them—dark from the Emperor, and light from Luke.

Luke Skywalker, Jedi MasterDuring the time when he was re-creating the Jedi Order and was searching for potential candidates, he walked on lava, believing in his mastery in the Force. One should note that the temperature near a lava lake is so extreme (around 2000 degree F), it is almost impossible to even breathe properly. Not only did Luke use the Force to walk on lava, but he also battled a creature living in lava at the same time. Luke's performance impressed Gantoris so much that he decided to become Luke's apprentice.
During the Eye of Palpatine incident, Luke subconsciously used his Force powers to overcome a particularly vicious form of brainwashing.
During the Death Seed Plague, Luke used the Force to communicate with the sentient crystals Tsils. It is important to remember that the more dissimilar the type of mind, the more difficult it is to communicate with via the Force.
Luke could generate a Force shield to deflect blaster fire.
While searching for the kidnapped Solo children, Luke used the Force to create an illusion over his face in order to disguise his identity. He would later reuse this trick on Yoggoy.
During the Black Fleet Crisis, Luke used the Force to rebuild Darth Vader's old fortress on Coruscant and made it invisible. After the crisis, with new found knowledge from the White Current, Luke removed the planet Brath Qella and the Teljkon Vagabond from view using the Force, and claimed it could last indefinitely. (One should observe that a hundred or thousand years later, eventually the Qella would rebuild their world successfully, by then their life forces would disturb the cloak and reveal the system.) In addition, Luke used the Force to crush the rebuilt fortress of Darth Vader to nothingness, shattering the building piece by piece.
After the Black Fleet Crisis, Luke taught the combined White Current/the Force illusion skill to his more experienced students, which would help shield the entire moon Yavin 4 from intruders during the Yuuzhan Vong War.
During the Kueller crisis, Luke prepared himself for death in such a way that he would become a Force ghost.
During the Battle of Dantooine of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Luke expanded several voids (black holes) to envelope the enemy, destroying it. Later, Kyp Durron, who believed that he had more pure power than Luke, used the same tactic against a Yuuzhan Vong frigate and achieved the same result.
Jacen Solo described Luke in the Battle of Yuuzhan'tar as a maelstrom of Force energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. So calm and focused that his actions were not interrupted by any thought. Luke merged with the Force in a degree which seemed the Jedi Master, physically or as an individual personality, not present on the battlefield anymore. Luke's lightsaber blade was described to look like ten or twenty blades moving at once. The Solo twins were astounded by seeing their uncle in such a state. One should note that the description of Luke's blade work matches the legendary lightsaber combat form Vaapad which was created by Mace Windu.
Luke's abilities with a lightsaber and the Force allowed him to fight his way through countless Yuuzhan Vong warriors in the Sacred Precinct. After defeating numerous Yuuzhan Vong warriors in the Citadel Luke defeated more than five Slayers; while Kyp Durron, one of the most powerful Jedi of his time, could not best even the Slayers who were exposed to Alpha Red. Afterwards, Luke slew Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jamaane, who was stated to be the best warrior of the Yuuzhan Vong, despite just being injured by the poison of the Scepter of Power.
Luke used a powerful and unique ability of the Force related to his signature green Electric Judgment in the chamber of Shimrra Jamaane. This technique had been described to look like "green sparks," which instantly killed the Slayer.
Luke displayed his amazing dueling skills with dual blades during the Yuuzhan Vong War. Regardless of receiving formal Jar'Kai training or not, Luke proved to be one of the best dual blades-duelists in his era.
During the early days of the Dark Nest Crisis, Luke used the Force to generate a lifelike copy of the Jade Shadow to fool the attacking dartships. This usage of the Force was so extreme, Luke burnt out and his face was temporarily sunken and shriveled like Palpatine's. A year later Luke applied the same trick on the DR919a, by then Luke already mastered the technique and would no longer burn out.
Toward the end of the Swarm War, Luke used the Force to call all the Jedi across the Galaxy to Ossus to make the announcement of him taking on the role as Grand Master of the Jedi Order, and to issue his views about the role of the Order to his Jedi.
While battling UnuThul, Luke was able to resist the combined Force power of the Colony and triumph. When UnuThul attempted to Force Push the Grand Master, Luke rooted himself in the heart of the Force so strongly that it was said that the black hole at the center of the galaxy could not move him.
Right after a battle with UnuThul, wounded and using only his left hand to hold a lightsaber, Luke defeated Lomi Plo, who was wielding two lightsabers.