Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't want to bash him but when you're a fool you're a fool. When it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's most likely a duck Escape.
That's cool. I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, but I've been civil to him. The only time I'm not is when he irks my patience with his aggressive and rude behavior, hence the ultimatum. He will either provide proof, or this discussion is over, and we'll all continue it without him.
Edit: In fact, I'll even wipe my profile of his quotes.
Originally posted by Gideon
"The greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power."Get it right.
And, no, the analogy is effective. Especially when one takes into consideration that Palpatine's plan did not come into effect nor was it accomplished at the time that that quote was made.
Lmao.
a.) Being able to have a conversation with Yoda and the Jedi without them being any the wiser in regards to his Sith heritage is impressive. However, if that is the case, then you are saying his ability to do that puts him on a pedestal in accomplishments above every other Sith - including Bane and Revan.
I'd think very hard about that.
b.) No. Palpatine hadn't exterminated the Jedi Order yet or destroyed an ancient Republic. He did not achieve the goals of the Sith at that time. His ability to cloak himself in the Force is nice, but at that time, he was not "greater" than any other Sith.
No. You have not.
I won't repeat myself to you again, and further commentary on this topic will simply be ignored. If you disagree, provide proof. Simply attempting to point out the flaws in mine (and then failing) is not proof in itself.
Think hard. Think closely.
Actually Gideon, I'd say being able to manipulate events around himself to the point where he was able to secure his place as ruler of the Republic puts him as arguably the greatest ever. He pretty much had power over the entire jedi council, to the point where he was able to decide on jedi matters that even Yoda was against. Also, didn't you ever think that maybe the plans that he was already putting into effect factored in on the statement at all?
No. He became "the greatest ever" when he curbstomped the Jedi and the Republic in one fell swoop and managed to place himself in the uncontested galactic seat of power. Remember - this quote was made during Attack of the Clones. Sidious's political power as Chancellor was still ridiculously limited. He was not in control of the galaxy. The Jedi were still around (and in full control of their own duties) and the Republic still functioned.
The events you speak of happened in Revenge of the Sith. Am I to take this as a statement of you lacking proof?
Originally posted by The Sith'ari
He was arguably 'the greatest' due to accomplishments and plans before that point, Gideon. And IIRC, didn't he gain emergency powers during AotC?
"Arguably"? For what, Planet? His goals and plans did not come into fruitation 'til RotS. Otherwise, what did he do? He got himself elected to the highest office in the Republic. Yeah. That's cool. But he was a "civil servant" at the time with limited powers. Not my definition of the greatest Sith ever.
And, no.
He gained the power to create and form an army. The rest of his powers were given periodically during the war.
The emergency powers gave him limited control over the jedi, Gideon..
And again, his plans were already being put into effect (building power in the Republic, befriending Anakin and planning to turn him to the darkside and use him as his ultimate weapon, manipulating events to start the Clone Wars...), they quite clearly factor into the statement.
No.
Only by RotS did he have any authority over the Jedi insofar as making decisions for them. The point is not pretty clear, Planet, as you've been forced from being "absolutely sure" to know "you think" and "they factor in" instead of being "the only thing".
You have not provided a shred of evidence that would make Sidious the greatest Sith Lord by this stage.
Originally posted by AdventThats not what i was saying. I was saying what he said, i just didn't articulate it well enough. When i was saying that those two feats are one in the same, i didn't quite word myself right. I meant it only one way, that if you were the most powerful you would be stronger than Sidious...not that if you were more powerful than Sidious that you'd be the strongest..so that was my fault for not saying it correctly. But I mean what D.Sexy said, which i was about to post til I saw your alls conversations.
I thought you were taking the position of Darth Subjekt (saying you must be the best to be stronger than Sidious), but since you made clear the differences below, that was my fault, but I can comprehend what you meant now.
Originally posted by AdventI never said that Luke would be double than Sidious (that would make Luke's and Anakin's potential the same, which i objected to.), just that he would be the most powerful which would obviously make him stronger than Sidious. Again, sorry for not making myself as clear as I had hoped to.
The only added difference, from what I was saying and what Subjekt believes, is that you seem to operate under the assumption that Luke Skywalker will become two times as powerful, correct? Which would require you to prove that Luke's potential even goes that far as to eclipse Sidious' own by double.
Yes, I have.
1. His rise to power in the Republic; not many sith can claim to have that kind of power.
2. The emergency powers he was able to gain through manipulation of certain people and events.
3. Having such considerable guile that he was able to sit on Yoda's lap in the jedi council meetings, and Yoda was none the wiser as to his identity.
4. The plans he had already set into motion; befriending Anakin and planning to turn him and forge him into the perfect sith weapon, manipulating Count Dooku into starting the Clone Wars, points 1 and 2 mentioned above...
No, you have not. Sidious got elected to the position of Chancellor. He was in a position of extremely limited power and was "a civil servant". If he were in absolute unconstested in power, why would he need the emergancy powers? It was only during the course of the war that he managed to achieve a status of nigh political invulnerability - and even then it wasn't enough - hence his need to consolidate power as Emperor.
Your second point refers to his mastery of a discipline that allows a Force user to conceal one's self in the Force. Which is not dependant on political ability or charm - but strength and skill in the Force - which only serves the true interpretation of that quote.
Lastly, your final two points are in reference to his future acts. What he did from the end of Attack of the Clones to Revenge of the Sith. They don't apply.
Your only prayer for a semblance of a point comes from your "first" point. One of the other three only serves to work against you, and the other two don't apply.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I never said that Luke would be double than Sidious (that would make Luke's and Anakin's potential the same, which i objected to.)
I never said you did. I was saying that the distinction between Sexy's and your arguments (or interpretations, rather) was that Sexy believed Luke to be two times greater than the Emperor in power, whereas you were only saying it meant for him to have the (current) highest potential.
I only threw out your name to prove what I said about the majority of points just being a repetition of each other. Even though a few may carry some type of diversity, they will ultimately fall under the same category of points, anyways.
Again, sorry for not making myself as clear as I had hoped to.
The second one I don't hold you for at all, the first one though... 😛
1. Your opinion is clearly quite set, so I see no point in continuing to argue, though your opinion is pretty whack I must say. Having that kind of authority over the Republic is what most sith would dream of, and not only was it that, but it was a stepping stone to his path to Emporer.
2. Wrong, you're interpreting my intentions incorrectly, it's the achievement itself I'm referring to, being able to deceive the jedi like that, and gain their trust.
3. No, they do apply. These future acts were already being put into place at this point.
1. Your opinion is clearly quite set, so I see no point in continuing to argue, though your opinion is pretty whack I must say. Having that kind of authority over the Republic is what most sith would dream of, and not only was it that, but it was a stepping stone to his path to Emporer.
Lmao. "My opinion is pretty whack!" That's all you have? You're right. There is no reason to continue. You don't have a semblance of an argument. That position was of limited power and for a certain term. The Republic and the Jedi were both institutions and both existed.
2. Wrong, you're interpreting my intentions incorrectly, it's the achievement itself I'm referring to, being able to deceive the jedi like that, and gain their trust.
And he did so via Force power.
3. No, they do apply. These future acts were already being put into place at this point.
And yet they weren't guarenteed of success. Once again, you have no point.