What is T-Vo?

Originally posted by batdude123
I'm pretty sure that against Blaze he manipulated the entire battle field.

It took him long against Dominus because he's abstract-level and magical. Superman didn't say the actual reality warping took him a long time, it was the building up to the "theta state."

He said that Dominus waited so long he was able to slowly pull them onto the astral plane or something like that. It seemed to me that it was the scope of the feat itself that took time, not the recipient. I can't honestly consider it THAT powerful/useful from what I've seen so far, just for the simple fact that no one could use it to save Krypton.

Originally posted by darthgoober
What issue/arc did he use it against Blaze and Adversary and I'll check them out. The only showings of it I could find when I looked before where against Dominus and Eradicator, but I'll check those instances so I can make a more informed decision.

He said that Dominus waited so long he was able to slowly pull them onto the astral plane or something like that. It seemed to me that it was the scope of the feat itself that took time, not the recipient. I can't honestly consider it THAT powerful/useful from what I've seen so far, just for the simple fact that no one could use it to save Krypton.

Against Adversary, he used it to take a hit from Adversary with no damage done to him at all. I'm not sure what arc the Blaze fight was in, but I've seen the scans.

It took him a long time to build up to his THETA state. You're ignoring the fact that Dominus is a universal entity that was beating the ever lovin' piss out of Kismet. Also, when he was fighting Eradicator with his giant robot construct, ALL of Metropolis was viewing the fight... something to think about. Everyone was pulled into their astral fight.

Not that powerful? The fact that he was able to make Dominus even so much as NOTICE the power is a feat in and of itself. Saying that it isn't very powerful because it failed to save Krypton is, frankly, bullshit. T-Vo was established only a few years ago, whereas Krypton exploding was established 69 years ago.... Trying to put them in the same boat is a no-no. Not to mention, Torquasm-Vo isn't a well known power of Superman's.

Originally posted by batdude123
Against Adversary, he used it to take a hit from Adversary with no damage done to him at all. I'm not sure what arc the Blaze fight was in, but I've seen the scans.

I'll ask around about it. I've got a shit load of Supes comics at this point, I just need to know where to look.

Originally posted by batdude123 It took him a long time to build up to his THETA state. You're ignoring the fact that Dominus is a universal entity that was beating the ever lovin' piss out of Kismet. Also, when he was fighting Eradicator with his giant robot construct, ALL of Metropolis was viewing the fight... something to think about. Everyone was pulled into their astral fight. [/B]

Originally posted by batdude123 Not that powerful? The fact that he was able to make Dominus even so much as NOTICE the power is a feat in and of itself. Saying that it isn't very powerful because it failed to save Krypton is, frankly, bullshit. T-Vo was established only a few years ago, whereas Krypton exploding was established 69 years ago.... Trying to put them in the same boat is a no-no. Not to mention, Torquasm-Vo isn't a well known power of Superman's. [/B]

Originally posted by darthgoober
No, everyone saw the illusion. He created the illusion to distract the Eradicator. It's never mentioned that he pulled them all to the astral plane. And I'm not ignoring Dominus's status, I'm just not going to forget that it was never actually established as to why it took that long. I plan on checking out the other 2 uses as soon as I get pointed in the write direction, but right now all I have are the two instances I've seen to go by. So I've seen him create a giant illusion on the fly, and I saw massive reality warping given time and concentration. Until they firmly establish the reason as to why it took so long with Dominus, saying that it was because of how powerful he was is speculation. That's not to say that it doesn't make sense for that to be the reason, I just don't see it making anymore sense than the possible reason I've given for the event.

Anyone who is effected by Torquasm-Vo is on Superman's astral plane. Otherwise, they wouldn't even notice what was going on. Lex Luthor and Lois Lane were also able to view Superman's T-Vo battle against Dominus because it was mentioned that they were pulled into his astral plane as well. Everyone in Metropolis was watching their battle, thus, they were pulled in as well.

All he did against Dominus was cast some constructs, illusions, and some reality warping. Is that really more intricate use of T-Vo then say creating a building sized sentient robot that everyone in Metropolis was able to view? Doubtful. Think about it.... the ONE time Superman's T-Vo took longer than a few moments was against Dominus.... a nigh omnipotent telepath/telekinetic/reality warper on a universal scale.... Hmmm? I'll say this again, the fact that he even got somebody THAT powerful to even notice T-Vo is a feat in and of itself. NOBODY was able to beat him... and that includes DC's version of Eternity. Do you see Professor Xavier battling Galactus on an astral plane and actually beating him? Or even accomplishing ANYTHING? Nope.

The fact that it formally was never stated hardly matters.... it was a dead implication if you actually read the story arc. Download the "King of the World" Superman story arc and you'll see what I mean. Writers aren't neurotic about tiny details like we are on this site. It's called thinking outside the box... and I have enough sense to tell me that the use of T-Vo took him awhile longer against Dominus was because he's a MAGICAL (one of Superman's weaknesses, no less) cosmic entity.

END OF STORY!

Originally posted by darthgoober
When they introduced it as a ancient Kryptonian technique, they put it on Krypton at the time it was destroyed. Kinda like a mini recton. Now if they ever come up with an official, on panel explanation as to why it wasn't used, then I'll accept that. But at this point it is at the VERY least reasonable to say, that it isn't powerful enough to accomplish something like that.

😐

Bran, I hope you understand that if Krypton was saved.... there would be no Superman. Plain and simple. T-Vo has been shown to effect a universal entity on panel. The reason a planet full of T-Vo users didn't save Krypton was not because of a lack of power.... but because of the actual Superman story. It's simple.... without Krypton blowing up, there'd be no Superman.

And no, it's not reasonable to say that, because it was not stated on panel (see, I can take a page out of your book too) that they even ATTEMPTED to save Krypton with T-Vo. So it's speculation... and they obviously didn't, because what writer would want a story about Superman being under a red sun his whole life? Exactly.... ✅

NO ONE.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'll ask around about it. I've got a shit load of Supes comics at this point, I just need to know where to look.

No, everyone saw the illusion. He created the illusion to distract the Eradicator. It's never mentioned that he pulled them all to the astral plane. And I'm not ignoring Dominus's status, I'm just not going to forget that it was never actually established as to why it took that long. I plan on checking out the other 2 uses as soon as I get pointed in the write direction, but right now all I have are the two instances I've seen to go by. So I've seen him create a giant illusion on the fly, and I saw massive reality warping given time and concentration. Until they firmly establish the reason as to why it took so long with Dominus, saying that it was because of how powerful he was is speculation. That's not to say that it doesn't make sense for that to be the reason, I just don't see it making anymore sense than the possible reason I've given for the event.

When they introduced it as a ancient Kryptonian technique, they put it on Krypton at the time it was destroyed. Kinda like a mini recton. Now if they ever come up with an official, on panel explanation as to why it wasn't used, then I'll accept that. But at this point it is at the VERY least reasonable to say, that it isn't powerful enough to accomplish something like that.

no it wasnt an illusion their battle was just spilling over from the astral plane.. also remember kryptonians are powerless under a red sun anyway....and before they became uber scientists they were a warrior race, that conquered the shit outta everybody, so since they calmed down and reached the peak of thier civilzation i guess there was no longer a need for it and it became a lost art.. hence the tag ancient kryptonian discipline.....if im not mistaken it was due to the krystal that jor-el placed in supes ship that contained the knowledge of kryptonian history that he even knew about it..besides t-vo involves two warriors entering the same theta state i dont see how that could stop a planet from exploding

Originally posted by darthgoober
When they introduced it as a ancient Kryptonian technique, they put it on Krypton at the time it was destroyed. Kinda like a mini recton. Now if they ever come up with an official, on panel explanation as to why it wasn't used, then I'll accept that. But at this point it is at the VERY least reasonable to say, that it isn't powerful enough to accomplish something like that.

Honestly I think its as simple as the writers just not thinking about this. Superman, for some reason, needed something new so they retconned this thing in and I doubt they even gave it a second thought.

Sigh...I think Superman should just leave all the torquasms to Lois

Originally posted by marvelprince

Sigh...I think Superman should just leave all the torquasms to Lois

Originally posted by darthgoober

When they introduced it as a ancient Kryptonian technique, they put it on Krypton at the time it was destroyed. Kinda like a mini recton. Now if they ever come up with an official, on panel explanation as to why it wasn't used, then I'll accept that. But at this point it is at the VERY least reasonable to say, that it isn't powerful enough to accomplish something like that.

Originally posted by manjaro
no it wasnt an illusion their battle was just spilling over from the astral plane.. also remember kryptonians are powerless under a red sun anyway....and before they became uber scientists they were a warrior race, that conquered the shit outta everybody, so since they calmed down and reached the peak of thier civilzation i guess there was no longer a need for it and it became a lost art.. hence the tag ancient kryptonian discipline.....if im not mistaken it was due to the krystal that jor-el placed in supes ship that contained the knowledge of kryptonian history that he even knew about it..besides t-vo involves two warriors entering the same theta state i dont see how that could stop a planet from exploding

So kryptonians had a an ancient form of telepathy, which seems like an advanced form of the development of chi used by the Shaolin Monks ?

Originally posted by batdude123
I'll say this again, the fact that he even got somebody THAT powerful to even notice T-Vo is a feat in and of itself. NOBODY was able to beat him... and that includes DC's version of Eternity. Do you see Professor Xavier battling Galactus on an astral plane and actually beating him? Or even accomplishing ANYTHING? Nope.!

Originally posted by batdude123 The fact that it formally was never stated hardly matters.... it was a dead implication if you actually read the story arc. Download the "King of the World" Superman story arc and you'll see what I mean. Writers aren't neurotic about tiny details like we are on this site. It's called thinking outside the box... and I have enough sense to tell me that the use of T-Vo took him awhile longer against Dominus was because he's a MAGICAL (one of Superman's weaknesses, no less) cosmic entity.

END OF STORY![/B]

Originally posted by darthgoober
A feat of PIS that is thus ignored for the fact. Right along the same lines as Thor's hammer being able to take out Galactus and Celestials, the Quantum bands beating the Phoenix Force, and Surfer's power cosmic beating an alternate realities version of Eternity. None of those are really instances are testaments of how powerful the items in question are, anymore than the Dominus showing is a testament to how powerful T-Vo is.

Honestly? I don't like associating T-Vo's power with him able to beat Dominus with it. I think it's every bit of PIS that you do, actually....

In NO reality should Superman ever beat someone powerful enough to go through Kismet like a rag doll, but hey, those are just the perks of being DC's top dog... ✅

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well as I said before, I plan on checking out all of the instance's it's been used for details, so we may end up agreeing about the implication in the end. It's just that at this point all I have to go by are the 3 scans that I've seen from the respect thread. But it IS good to think outside the box like that, and realize that the writers don't think to show everything. For instance I could use that argument to say that I've seen enough and have enough sense to tell me that the Surfer IS capable of a speedblitz, and is also capable of using cosmic energy to amp himself up enough to match Supes physically.

I know what you're saying, but all the other uses of T-Vo he was able to use in mere moments. 😬 IIRC, what took him so long against Dominus was him actually having to build up to his "theta state" in order to achieve said goals. And it didn't take him long at all to use it other times...

Yeah.... uh.... Surfer isn't Superman's physical equal... nowhere near, actually. But I digress on that situation...

Originally posted by batdude123
Yeah.... uh.... Surfer isn't Superman's physical equal... nowhere near, actually. But I digress on that situation...

That was his point. That Surfer could use power cosmic to amp himself in the way Superman uses Tivo to record shows (sorry could NOT resist). I don't think he's saying both are equal

The main problem with something as powerful as T-vo, and giving it to Superman, as a gift from Ancient Krypton, is that it breaks the game.

Kinda like how Superman being able to time travel at will would break the game.

Its akin to me living in a house that's gonna be destroyed by an exploding volcano. And i'm a genius mind you.

I send my son away to school, and my house and neighborhood is lost to the world forever in the volcanic explosion.

But years later, its found out that in the basement of my house, i had a little device that mysteriously permaseals active volcanoes, by way of some weird reaction.

All i have to do is point at the volcanoe, and hit the big red button. It automatically fixes the problem.

My son finds this weird gadget in his safe deposit box, left from me.

It turns out, that the device is merely an EasyButton(as seen on Tv).

I could've solved the problem of the dangerous volcano that was inevitably going to spout.

Did i mention that i was a genius?

Originally posted by batdude123
Honestly? I don't like associating T-Vo's power with him able to beat Dominus with it. I think it's every bit of PIS that you do, actually....

In NO reality should Superman ever beat someone powerful enough to go through Kismet like a rag doll, but hey, those are just the perks of being DC's top dog... ✅

I know what you're saying, but all the other uses of T-Vo he was able to use in mere moments. 😬 IIRC, what took him so long against Dominus was him actually having to build up to his "theta state" in order to achieve said goals. And it didn't take him long at all to use it other times...

Yeah.... uh.... Surfer isn't Superman's physical equal... nowhere near, actually. But I digress on that situation...

Nobody is saying that Surfer is stronger than Superman, but to say he isn't anywhere near as physically powerful is unfair to what Surfers done.

I'd say Surfer is as, if not more durable, than Superman.

The strength thing is obviously in Supermans favor, but i doubt Superman would shrug off a punch from Surfer.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Nobody is saying that Surfer is stronger than Superman, but to say he isn't anywhere near as physically powerful is unfair to what Surfers done.

I'd say Surfer is as, if not more durable, than Superman.

The strength thing is obviously in Supermans favor, but i doubt Superman would shrug off a punch from Surfer.

Surfer isn't more durable than Superman...

Originally posted by batdude123
Surfer isn't more durable than Superman...

And marvelprince was right, I was saying that that Surfer could amp himself up to the point that he was Supes equal, not that they started that way.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Maybe not MORE....but probably equal. They're feats of durability are pretty comparable IMO.

And marvelprince was right, I was saying that that Surfer could amp himself up to the point that he was Supes equal, not that they started that way.

And Superman can obviously amp himself as well...

Originally posted by batdude123
Surfer isn't more durable than Superman...

Is that written in stone somewhere?

He has his highend, just like everyone else.

And Superman can only amp under the right conditions.

Put him in a room without sunlight, and all the stress in the world won't make a diff.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Is that written in stone somewhere?

He has his highend, just like everyone else.

And Superman can only amp under the right conditions.

Put him in a room without sunlight, and all the stress in the world won't make a diff.

Is it written in stone somewhere that Surfer is equal, or slightly above Superman when it comes to durability?

Originally posted by batdude123
And Superman can obviously amp himself as well...