The Vishanti, or atleast Agamotto's dimension exists outside of Eternity. I clearly remember it stating that Agamotto can view ANY universe in the multiverse and see events in ANY point in time. AS for existing outside a single universe and still within the multiverse, I cant be certain. But readings led me to believe that The Vishanti realms exist on the borders of the multiverse, outside of multi-ternity.
Originally posted by Mindship
Well, then...how would all these powers relate to one another:
Phoenix Force, Power Cosmic and pinch Magic?
Warren Ellis gives the best scientific and original explanation for magic in Planetary. Quantum and string Theory are beginning to suggests that reality might be a infinitely huge information processor, similar to a computer. In accordance with this, Warren Ellis suggests that magic works in a similar way to the way in which a virus works on a traditional computer. I to really hate magic, unless depicted in the same way as shown by the power cosmic, i.e. it has some rules to it. For example if one was to magically increase the size of quantum wave functions one would be able to almost control probability as if it where magnetism or electricity. At the same time it would be still impossible to do certain things, for example one wouldn't be able to make cartoons real
Re: Re: The ultimate source of magic?
Originally posted by By Crom!In DC it comes from Gods laws.
Some of it exists outside of Gods rules, i.e. during Morison's run, there where various hints that suggested the 5th Dimension existed outside the bounds of creation. Hence the ease at which the imp was able to imprison the Spectre.
Originally posted by General Mess
Warren Ellis gives the best scientific and original explanation for magic in Planetary. Quantum and string Theory are beginning to suggests that reality might be a infinitely huge information processor, similar to a computer. In accordance with this, Warren Ellis suggests that magic works in a similar way to the way in which a virus works on a traditional computer. I too really hate magic, unless depicted in the same way as shown by the power cosmic, i.e. it has some rules to it. For example if one was to magically increase the size of quantum wave functions one would be able to almost control probability as if it where magnetism or electricity. At the same time it would be still impossible to do certain things, for example one wouldn't be able to make cartoons real
'Zactly.
Ellis' explanation sounds something like my idea of psiconsciousness, ie, being directly aware of quantum wavefunctions (interestingly, "psi" is used by both quantum physicists And parapsychologists). Although I've presented psiconsciousness as an explanation for all superpowers, it would certainly work quite well as an explanation for magic, power cosmic, psionics, reality-warping; pretty much all but the Phoenix Force (which I tend to view as a still-higher level of consciousness: something archetypal or divine).
Originally posted by Ethereal
The Vishanti, or atleast Agamotto's dimension exists outside of Eternity. I clearly remember it stating that Agamotto can view ANY universe in the multiverse and see events in ANY point in time. AS for existing outside a single universe and still within the multiverse, I cant be certain. But readings led me to believe that The Vishanti realms exist on the borders of the multiverse, outside of multi-ternity.
a watcher can view ANY universe in the multiverse as well, and take us to any point. that doesn't mean anything. strange himself HAS said the eternity is the sum of everything and he holds eternity in special esteem. the vishanti DO exist within the bounds of eternity, unless you have something that specifically states otherwise. and they certainky would NOT exist outside of multi-eternity . . .
i can live with the idea that magic transcends physics/cosmic control if it DOES come from a source OUTSIDE/BEYOND the limits set by the big bang. the fact that LT balances the existence of mystical energy as part of his job DOES seem to indicate that there is a set allotment of mystical/magical energy available in the multiverse. i wonder if magic could be viewed as a backdrop to the multiverse, ofver which universes are laid. magic may be the fundamental constant energy, and cosmic energy is simply laid overtop of it. that might explain how 'eternity' is granted life and sentience . . .
Originally posted by leonidasI already told you Leo magic as used in Marvel and DC are like the TOAA or the Presence. They are tools used by writers simply to fix problems and come to conslussions without much hassel.
a watcher can view ANY universe in the multiverse as well, and take us to any point. that doesn't mean anything. strange himself HAS said the eternity is the sum of everything and he holds eternity in special esteem. the vishanti DO exist within the bounds of eternity, unless you have something that specifically states otherwise. and they certainky would NOT exist outside of multi-eternity . . .i can live with the idea that magic transcends physics/cosmic control if it DOES come from a source OUTSIDE/BEYOND the limits set by the big bang. the fact that LT balances the existence of mystical energy as part of his job DOES seem to indicate that there is a set allotment of mystical/magical energy available in the multiverse. i wonder if magic could be viewed as a backdrop to the multiverse, ofver which universes are laid. magic may be the fundamental constant energy, and cosmic energy is simply laid overtop of it. that might explain how 'eternity' is granted life and sentience . . .
A writer will never give magic an origin or a power source because then it looses it's PIS power.
In general Magic is simply the ability to defy the laws of reality...whether it be in Marvel, DC, Image, Vertigo, Crossgen, Top Cow, etc.
Cosmic power is when one summons and wields the energy of the universe, allowing them to manipulate matter and energy to thier liking.
Magic is gathering of this same source, however, twisting this power to perform feats which totally defy logic:
Ex: In Crossgen's title Mystic, two young sorcerers perform a spell where the entire universe is sucked into a black top hat, and then spit back out....
I think all the above explanations for magic -- and how it differs from power cosmic -- make some sense; but By Crom's point is still valid: essentially they are still both plot devices, only "magic" is more blatant about it. As Newjac implied, Magic = Writer's ignorance + Writer's whim, whereas power cosmic (or psionics or reality-warping) appear to have some limits set on them (though not enough, I suspect, to prevent "magical" tinkering with a story, if the writer really needed that).
Originally posted by Mindship
I think all the above explanations for magic -- and how it differs from power cosmic -- make some sense; but [B]By Crom's point is still valid: essentially they are still both plot devices, only "magic" is more blatant about it. As Newjac implied, Magic = Writer's ignorance + Writer's whim, whereas power cosmic (or psionics or reality-warping) appear to have some limits set on them (though not enough, I suspect, to prevent "magical" tinkering with a story, if the writer really needed that). [/B]
If one was able to view wave Functions of particles, would one be able to see particles in ALL states simultaneously, i.e. even states we can't even begin to comprehend ?
Originally posted by General Mess
Logic, if the THOU is transcendant of the known multiverse then ALL energy stemming from there makes rational sense. As De'carte put it to Hume, what is the need for a multitude of Gods ?
IF the hotu is transcendant . . .
neither gs nor myself believe that to be the case. 🙂
Originally posted by Mindship
I think all the above explanations for magic -- and how it differs from power cosmic -- make some sense; but [B]By Crom's point is still valid: essentially they are still both plot devices, only "magic" is more blatant about it. As Newjac implied, Magic = Writer's ignorance + Writer's whim, whereas power cosmic (or psionics or reality-warping) appear to have some limits set on them (though not enough, I suspect, to prevent "magical" tinkering with a story, if the writer really needed that). [/B]
i hear what you're saying, i'm just looking for something more . . . concrete than it is simply a plot device. a set amount of it DOES exist within the closed multiverse, as LT has stated. he is the one who makes sure the balance of mystical energy is not tipped in any one dimensions favor. i like the notion that the magical wellspring stems from toaa, while the cosmic force stems from creation itself. it works for me because it should be IMPOSSIBLE. how can the multiverse contain MORE energy than was expended in its creation? cosmic power uses the allotted energies of creation. magical allottment was thrown in on TOP of that energy by toaa.
may be unproveable, but i like the idea. 🙂 it's not fool-proof, but it's a start.
😉