Merlyn,Roma & Ancient One vs DC Universe

Originally posted by General Mess
As in the Morisson run ?,

Going through a worm hole from one point in space to another Dimension doesn't involve T.K. manipulation at a atomic scale.

who is this yahman you speak of ?

Beside the fact that Jean DIDN'T even KNOW what the hell was in her hands or what to do with it.

Phoenix is CLUELESS as to WHAT this is, or WHAT to do with it.

First question:

Jean says, "Did I have to FIX something that was dying?

Jean gets NO ANSWER!

Second Question:

What is it?"

Jean gets ANSWERED!

It tells her, "A badly wounded Orphan Universe ... Phoenix work"

Fine ..... Now WHAT does that mean?....

Jean Grey DOESN'T KNOW either.

"But...but WHAT's that supposed to mean?

Phoenix asked, "but what's that supposed to mean?"

AFTER She was told it's a "A badly wounded Orphan Universe ... Phoenix work"

Now, it TELLS Phoenix WHAT THAT MEANS,

"That Henry's heart's broken, that Scott succumbs to loneliness", ect..ect..

Is it saying,

"This Universe needs to be Fixed in anyway?" ❌

"This Universe is injured or damaged and needs to be repaired?" ❌

"This Universe needs a Future?" ❌

So WHAT does it SAY WHEN Jean ASKED "but what's that supposed to mean?"

It responds, "That Henry's heart's broken, that Scott succumbs to loneliness", ect..ect..

(This is the OUTCOME of Here Comes Tomorrow)

NOW, to Change that OUTCOME, Phoenix did NOT manipulate the Universe.

AM I LYING?

Here is GRANT MORRISON'S and company telling us HOW Phoenix CHANGED that Future.

Just like in the Comic book, which anyone can see as plain as day.

She actually went to the past and forced Scott to be with Emma

So INSTEAD of THIS Ending:

We NOW have THIS Ending:

In order to PREVENT the events of "Here Comes Tomorrow"

Originally posted by Mr Master
True.

Thats why i said it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.

Irrelevant. It was stated.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix has NEVER defeated or destroyed ANY Eternity of ANY Universe.

Eternity is just the representation of the universe. Destroying the universe or manipulating all that is a universe is a greater feat.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yet this has NEVER happened.

The ONLY Natural Big Bang event ever to take place On Panel, was when the 616 Universe/Eternity was destoryed by and became Entropy,

and then Entropy became the Big Bang and exploded into Eternity,

starting everything Anew.

The cosmics say it happened. Phoenix says it happened. Captions and therefore writers say it happened. With no evidence stating that Phoenix is NOT the Big Bang then you have no argument.

Phoenix was depicted on panel being reborn in the Big Bang event and was stated to literally be the energies of the Big Bang made sentient.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"One of Phoenix's many avatars?"

You mean Jean Grey the White Phoenix of the Crown, MOST powerful Avatar supposedly "manipulated" a universe.

She materialized it within the WHR so she could heal it as per the instructions of the Consciousness.

Originally posted by Mr Master
NO mention it was 616 or Eternity.

Where and when is Eternity or 616 ever mentioned?

The story arc was stated to be 150 years in the future of 616. Before the story arc reality was said to need a disinfection, during the story arc the universe was said to be broken and an event in the past caused it. Flashbacks of 616 were shown at this point.

Phoenix amputated the future, materialized what we were told was a badly wounded orphan universe within the White Hot Room. She then gazed within this reality changed an event and we were then shown a change occurring in 616.

That says it all.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"re-energized"?

I think NOT.

Jean with the help of ALL the X-Men was able to REPAIR the Lattice, NOT "re-energized" it.

"a Network of interlocking Stasis Fields NEUTRALIZES the power of the N-Galaxy"....she was only able to knit the interlocking Stasis Fields back together

Phoenix even says, their "ONLY Hope is to Knit the Lattice Back Together BEFORE it PASSES the Point of No Return"

She re-energized the lattice:

Not debatable.

Originally posted by General Mess
As in the Morisson run ?,

Going through a worm hole from one point in space to another Dimension doesn't involve T.K. manipulation at a atomic scale.

What are you talking about? 😕

What are you referring to? 😕

She is told to treat the patient in the White Hot Room. She goes there empty handed and then materializes what we're told is the universe in her hand whilst the Consciousness refers to her telekinetic control of all of those atoms.

Simple enough.

Jean not knowing exactly what was going on isnt evidence to discount what she actually does and is being told to do. She is disoriented after being prematurely hatched from her Phoenix egg. People who have actually read the comic know this.

Another thing readers will actually know is that the Consciousness talks to her in her head and sometimes takes over performing actions through her without Jean knowing whats going on. That explains her confusion and questions in the in the White Hot Room scene.

She disinfects reality of Sublime and Sublime is taken away from her

She amputates the HCT future, thereby wounding the universe.

Shes directed to the WHR "the hospital" to treat the "patient"

She materializes the universe within the WHR

She then alters the past resulting in the growth of a new future to replace the one she had just cut away. Simple.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Irrelevant. It was stated.

Originally posted by Mr Master
All you have to do is Unbalance the Mystical Energies of ONE Universe, and that threatens the Multiverse.

(from the same Issue)

"with Earth's PLANE so Unbalanced Mystically, due to it's convergence with Limbo ... it is only a matter of time before the Living Tribunal arrives"

"the Tribunal's role is to ensure the Balance of the Mystic Energies in the Multi-verse"

Quite relevent,

it proves that you don't have to threaten the entire Multiverse as a whole, to be a threat to the Multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Eternity is just the representation of the universe. Destroying the universe or manipulating all that is a universe is a greater feat.

IMO, that was NOT Eternity or the 616 Universe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The cosmics say it happened. Phoenix says it happened. Captions and therefore writers say it happened. With no evidence stating that Phoenix is NOT the Big Bang then you have no argument.

Beyonder's Power is Hyperbole,

yet Phoenix being the Big Bang (which has NEVER been Depicted On Panel is not)

Got it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With no evidence stating that Phoenix is NOT the Big Bang then you have no argument.

My evidence is that it NEVER HAPPENED On Panel!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix was depicted on panel being reborn in the Big Bang event and was stated to literally be the energies of the Big Bang made sentient.

Not in the issue where Phoenix is "Re-Born" in the Big Bang, NO mention of Phoenix being the energies of the Bang.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=2186583
NOT as the Big Bang .... From the Big Bang, like ALL other Abstracts.

"This is HOW I came into BEING"

(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

"The Phoenix Force is a CHILD of the Universe. the Force was SUBSEQUENTLY REBORN from the cosmic fires of the Big Bang"

For those who don't know what "Subsequent" means:

"coming after something in time; following"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She materialized it within the WHR so she could heal it as per the instructions of the Consciousness.

Which is strange, cause you know full well Phoenix did NOTHING to whatever was in her hands from the point it manifested in her hands till the end when she says "Live Scott" (is this where she supposedly "Healed" it?)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The story arc was stated to be 150 years in the future of 616. Before the story arc reality was said to need a disinfection, during the story arc the universe was said to be broken and an event in the past caused it. Flashbacks of 616 were shown at this point.

What issues exactly is 616 referred to?

I want to check them out.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She re-energized the lattice:

Not debatable.

Fair enough,

but without the HELP of ALL the X-Men including Corsair, it was an Impossible Feat:

"the Patterns of her life of the X-Men's LIVES, BECOME ONE with the Lattice"

"For ALL Her awesome Power, She CAN'T DO IT ALONE"

"AND THEN SUDDENLY", The SPIRITS of the X-MEN are WITH HER, GIVING of THEMSELVES AS STORM and CORSAIR GAVE"

ALL the X-Men gave their LIFE-FORCE to help REPAIR the Lattice.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Quite relevent,

it proves that you don't have to threaten the entire Multiverse as a whole, to be a threat to the Multiverse.

Your scan does no such thing. All it does is relate to us what is common knowledge, that LT keeps the mystical forces of universes in balance. It does NOT state YOUR OPINION that by unbalancing the mystical forces of one universe that automatically makes you a threat to the entire multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
IMO, that was NOT Eternity or the 616 Universe.

Irrelevant given that the event took place 150 years in the future of 616 and that events of 616 were referenced and that by altering the past of the universe she had in her hand we were shown changes occurring in 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder's Power is Hyperbole,

yet Phoenix being the Big Bang (which has NEVER been Depicted On Panel is not)

Got it.

That Beyonder comment is hyperbole because such a power level was never depicted and in fact was contradicted on panel. (DO NOT use this this as an excuse to go off on a tangent and post loads of Beyonder feats) Phoenix is shown being reborn in the Big Bang ANDthe point is stated on panel by characters as well as the captions account.

Originally posted by Mr Master
My evidence is that it NEVER HAPPENED On Panel!

Not in the issue where Phoenix is "Re-Born" in the Big Bang, NO mention of Phoenix being the enrgies of the Bang.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=2186583
NOT as the Big Bang .... From the Big Bang, like ALL other Abstracts.

"This is HOW I came into BEING"

(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

"The Phoenix Force is a CHILD of the Universe. the Force was SUBSEQUENTLY REBORN from the cosmic fires of the Big Bang"

For those who don't know what "Subsequent" means:

"coming after something in time; following"

The Forces natural state at a universal level is just formless energy. The Big Bang event sees the rebirth of the Phoenix. It is those energies made sentient. as depicted. Your evidence doesnt discount Phoenix being the energies of the Big Bang.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Which is strange, cause you know full well Phoenix did NOTHING to whatever was in her hands from the point it manifested in her hands till the end when she says "Live Scott" (is this where she supposedly "Healed" it?)

Originally posted by Mr Master
What issues exactly is 616 referred to?

I want to check them out.

At the end of issue 150, the HCT future is said to be 150 years in the future. In New X-men 154 Wolverine refers to events of 616 such as Jeans death and tells the story of how reality turned from how it was into the apocalyptic HCT future. Said story is also depicted on panel.

Wolverine also tells Jean that she was away for 150 years. CONCLUSIVELY 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Fair enough,

but without the HELP of ALL the X-Men including Corsair, it was an Impossible Feat:

"the Patterns of her life of the X-Men's LIVES, BECOME ONE with the Lattice"

"For ALL Her awesome Power, She CAN'T DO IT ALONE"

"AND THEN SUDDENLY", The SPIRITS of the X-MEN are WITH HER, GIVING of THEMSELVES AS STORM and CORSAIR GAVE"

ALL the X-Men gave their LIFE-FORCE to help REPAIR the Lattice.

Noones arguing that Jean was aided. However given the power level of the X-men involved and the power required to pull off such a feat it doesnt dent the feat as much you'd like unfortunately.

Forgot to respond to a bit. Jean materialized the 616 universe in her hand. THAT was the telekinetic manipulation. Not only is the formerly empty handed Jean shown with a universe appearring in her hand after being told to treat the patient within the hospital, but the Consciousness refers to her telekinetic control of all of the universes atoms.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your scan does no such thing. All it does is relate to us what is common knowledge, that LT keeps the mystical forces of universes in balance. It does NOT state YOUR OPINION that by unbalancing the mystical forces of one universe that automatically makes you a threat to the entire multiverse.

"with Earth's PLANE so Unbalanced Mystically, due to it's convergence with Limbo ... it is only a matter of time before the Living Tribunal arrives"

"the Tribunal's role is to ensure the Balance of the Mystic Energies in the Multi-verse"

So your saying this does not state that by Unbalancing ONE Universe Mystically you threaten the Balance of the Multiverse?

Even though Starnge just said that the Living Tribunal will ARRIVE BECAUSE "Earth's Plane is Unbalanced"

hum

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Irrelevant given that the event took place 150 years in the future of 616 and that events of 616 were referenced and that by altering the past of the universe she had in her hand we were shown changes occurring in 616.

NEVER saw Eternity or the 616 Universe referrenced or mentioned or hinted at.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That Beyonder comment is hyperbole because such a power level was never depicted and in fact was contradicted on panel.

If you say so.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
(DO NOT use this this as an excuse to go off on a tangent and post loads of Beyonder feats)

Stick to the debate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix is shown being reborn in the Big Bang ANDthe point is stated on panel by characters as well as the captions account.

Yea,

that's what I said,

Phoenix was reborn in the Big Bang like all other Abstracts.

The Abstracts now survive Big Bangs.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Forces natural state at a universal level is just formless energy. The Big Bang event sees the rebirth of the Phoenix. It is those energies made sentient. as depicted. Your evidence doesnt discount Phoenix being the energies of the Big Bang.

I disagree.

Phoenix FIRST comes "into being" which is "Formless Energy"

Phoenix says, I existed but was oblivious to existence, I simply was (Natural State)
UNTIL a Mind touched me" (Feron)

Your have no evidence depicting Phoenix in the act of producing a Big Bang.

But I DO have Proof, that Entropy IS the Big Bang, and Eternity the 616 Universe On Panel was RE-CREATED Anew from the Big Bang Entropy initiated.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of issue 150, the HCT future is said to be 150 years in the future. In New X-men 154 Wolverine refers to events of 616 such as Jeans death and tells the story of how reality turned from how it was into the apocalyptic HCT future. Said story is also depicted on panel.

Wolverine also tells Jean that she was away for 150 years. CONCLUSIVELY 616.

I asked for an issue that mentions Eternity or the 616 Universe.

That scan doesn't prove that at all.

If ALL this madness was taking place on Earth 616, WHERE the heck are the rest of the Heroes?

This sounds like an event taking place on a Global Scale, why isn't any other hero aware of ANY of this?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Noones arguing that Jean was aided. However given the power level of the X-men involved and the power required to pull off such a feat it doesnt dent the feat as much you'd like unfortunately.

I never said the X-Men equalled Phoenix in any way.

I said it was Impossible for her to Re-Knit or Re-Energize the Lattice without the them.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So WHAT does it SAY WHEN Jean ASKED "but what's that supposed to mean?"

It responds, "That Henry's heart's broken, that Scott succumbs to loneliness", ect..ect..

(This is the OUTCOME of Here Comes Tomorrow)

NOW, to Change that OUTCOME, Phoenix did NOT manipulate the Universe.

AM I LYING?

Here is GRANT MORRISON'S and company telling us HOW Phoenix CHANGED that Future.

Just like in the Comic book, which anyone can see as plain as day.

She actually went to the past and forced Scott to be with Emma

So INSTEAD of THIS Ending:

We NOW have THIS Ending:

In order to PREVENT the events of "Here Comes Tomorrow"

It all looks pretty metaphoric to me .... 🙂

Dr Stranges comment merely told us what we already know, that LT acts to balance mystical forces within each universe.

Phoenixes power being uncontrollable within a host was forwarded by the writer as the reason why its power was a threat to the multiverse.

Nothing was mentioned about it being because Phoenix would unbalance the mystical forces of the universe. You’re speculating in order to demean the point.

Phoenix at a universal level is naturally just the energies of the Big Bang as stated by the writers,

The event sees its rebirth.

However unlike the abstracts which are created fresh from scratch with the subsequent formation of the universe, the Force is a constant. Hence why it is "reborn" as opposed to created. It already exists.

The sentient Firebird that many mistakenly presume to be the sum of the Force is merely an EXPRESSION of the universal life force that is the Force:

The energies of life, the power behind the stars are what that Firebird is a manifestation of:

It isn’t all that is Phoenix.

The Phoenix is actually the sum and substance of all life:

All that lives is touched by Phoenix. It is all that is. While Eternity is the universe, Phoenix is the energies of creation which precede the universe and give it life.

Its rebirth sees the cycle begin and the collapse of its energies in the Crunch sees the universe end. It doesnt die, it just goes through changes of state and in doing so perpetuates the endless cycle of life.

Unless you can find sources saying the energies of the Big Bang aren’t Phoenix then presenting a contrary opinion to scans which CAN be interpreted my way is just not good enough. Especially when in many of the scans the point im trying to make is directly stated.

The abstracts surviving Big Bangs was just something Prosh said which is in contradiction with established continuity, which dictates that the abstracts are born with and in most cases die with the end of a universe. Eternity himself says that the abstracts meet their end at the end of cycle and that it is the Phoenix that gives them life again with the start of the new cycle. Eternitys knowledge of himself is greater than Proshs.

Your points with regards to 616 not being mentioned in the New X-men scans are fallacious. In a 616 comic does it have to be stated in each issue that the comic is within 616? 😕

At the end of New X-men 150 it was stated that the HCT arc took place 150 years in the future. A future timeline does NOT equate to an alternate reality.

Events of 616 were referred to as the past of this future.

In line with the captions of New X-men 150 Wolverine told Jean she'd been away for 150 years.

616 Jean refers to killing the bug people she exterminated in New X-mens Here Comes Tomorrow in Phoenix Endsong.

New X-men:

Endsong

A reference to the bug people and Here Comes Tomorrow. She even quotes herself "A genetic obsolescence"

We were told the universe was broken. We were told it was a point in the past of THAT universe that lead to this problem, but they had no idea where the break occurred.

The very next page captioned 150 years earlier is the graveyard scene from 616. The very event Jean would later go on to alter

Jean amputates the HCT future from the universe, changes the past of the universe in her hand, resulting in a change of events in 616 and the reversion of 616 events being illustrated in New X-men.

HCT documented a possible future NOT a completely different universe.

Conclusively 616. ✅

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!! 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]BUMP!!!!!!!!!!! 😉 [/B]

Good Morning

IMHO Living Tribunal>ThePhoenixForce 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dr Stranges comment merely told us what we already know, that LT acts to balance mystical forces within each universe.

Phoenixes power being uncontrollable within a host was forwarded by the writer as the reason why its power was a threat to the multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"with Earth's PLANE so Unbalanced Mystically, due to it's convergence with Limbo ... it is only a matter of time before the Living Tribunal arrives"

"the Tribunal's role is to ensure the Balance of the Mystic Energies in the Multi-verse"

So your saying this does not state that by Unbalancing ONE Universe Mystically you threaten the Balance of the Multiverse?

Even though Strange just said that the Living Tribunal will ARRIVE BECAUSE "Earth's Plane is Unbalanced"

hum

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nothing was mentioned about it being because Phoenix would unbalance the mystical forces of the universe. You’re speculating in order to demean the point.

Madelyn gets the upper hand and takes control of the FULL Phoenix Force:

"I've got no competition for dominion over THIS Universe, for the power of the Phoenix is here and mine"

Madelyn or any other would be able to "Unbalance" ONE Universe with the Phoenix Force, therefore causing a Multiversal Imbalance.

Madelyn doesn't claim the "Multiverse" will be hers, but just ONE Universe, "THIS Universe"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix at a universal level is naturally just the energies of the Big Bang as stated by the writers,

The event sees its rebirth.

However unlike the abstracts which are created fresh from scratch with the subsequent formation of the universe, the Force is a constant. Hence why it is "reborn" as opposed to created. It already exists.

The sentient Firebird that many mistakenly presume to be the sum of the Force is merely an EXPRESSION of the universal life force that is the Force:

The energies of life, the power behind the stars are what that Firebird is a manifestation of:

ALL TALK and NO Action.

WHERE and WHEN has Phoenix EVER initiated a Big Bang ON PANEL?

WHERE and WHEN has Phoenix EVER Created a Universe?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix is actually the sum and substance of all life:

All that lives is touched by Phoenix. It is all that is. While Eternity is the universe, Phoenix is the energies of creation which precede the universe and give it life.

Its rebirth sees the cycle begin and the collapse of its energies in the Crunch sees the universe end. It doesnt die, it just goes through changes of state and in doing so perpetuates the endless cycle of life.

More TALK and NO Action!

NONE of these Scans or the Other ones you swamped this thread with depict Phoenix initiating a Big Bang or being the Big Bang.

NOT One of those Scans show Phoenix in the ACT of creating a Big Bang!

Originally posted by guy222
IMHO Living Tribunal>ThePhoenixForce 🙂

sampunch

Why do you go into almost every thread and say that?

It gets annoying, and it makes you looks rediculous. Especially when LT isn't even in that particular thread.