Just how durable is Juggernaut without his force-field?

I’ve been thinking about this lately about classic Juggernaut’s invulnerability and his shield. Now, I know the general consensus seems to be that Cain’s invulnerable even without his shield, but is he really?

In the past, we’ve seen:

- Nightcrawler hurt classic Juggernaut
- Hulk knock the wind out of him
- Spider-Woman and Storm manage to make him scream in pain
- An amped up Venom beat him around
- Shatterstar stab his eye out
- Vision hurt him by phasing his hand in his head
- A car stun another Juggernaut
- Nimrod knock him out with a high-frequency sonic attack
- Thor literally take away his shield and then proceed to beat him around with his fists

We’ve also seen on at least two occasions (his fight with Spider-Man and his second fight with Thor) statements that his invulnerability is completely tied to his force-field.

Now, one could say that these are all just low showings (and maybe they are) but is it possible that classic Juggs was never truly invulnerable without his shield (and I mean literally nothing-can-hurt-me-period invulnerable) or did he just have better durability than most when his shield was not up and could still be hurt by enough physical force?

Thoughts?

Juggernaut is teh UNSTOPPABLELEEL!!!!1111!!!@@@!111

Originally posted by Accel

- Nightcrawler hurt classic Juggernaut
- Vision hurt him by phasing his hand in his head
- A car stun another Juggernaut

We’ve also seen on at least two occasions (his fight with Spider-Man and his second fight with Thor) statements that his invulnerability is completely tied to his force-field.

I would seriously like to know what issues those where in.

The Thor comic didn't really know everything about his character. In it they considered him a mutant several times, so what's to say they didn't look into Cain's character well.

- Nimrod knock him out with a high-frequency sonic attack

He wasn't physically damaged by this nor was he Knocked out. He was just disoriented.

- Shatterstar stab his eye out

His swords where mystical, so yeah magic.

- An amped up Venom beat him around
- Hulk knock the wind out of him

He wasn't physically harmed or hurt.

We’ve also seen on at least two occasions (his fight with Spider-Man and his second fight with Thor) statements that his invulnerability is completely tied to his force-field.

I think you are mistaken on that one.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
The Thor comic didn't really know everything about his character. In it they considered him a mutant several times, so what's to say they didn't look into Cain's character well.

Also, Thor beat the living HELL out of Juggernaut. Juggernaut was going down in the next punch.

Originally posted by batdude123
Juggernaut is teh UNSTOPPABLELEEL!!!!1111!!!@@@!111

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
[B] - Nimrod knock him out with a high-frequency sonic attack

He wasn't physically damaged by this nor was he Knocked out. He was just disoriented.
[/B]

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
[B] - An amped up Venom beat him around
- Hulk knock the wind out of him

He wasn't physically harmed or hurt.
[/B]

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
[B]We’ve also seen on at least two occasions (his fight with Spider-Man and his second fight with Thor) statements that his invulnerability is completely tied to his force-field.

I think you are mistaken on that one. [/B]

Originally posted by Accel
IIRC, both Spider-Man and Thor have remarked about his force-field being the true source of his invulnerability before.

Anyone have a Youtube video of the X-men tv cartoon from the 90's? There is an episode in which Shi'ar got a hold of Juggy and threw him miles and miles away.

Even Jubilee says something like "Gosh, I've never seen anyone do that to the Juggernaut"

Originally posted by bigbran
Accel, if you need scans from Thor, I can get them for you. Just tell me the issue number.

Originally posted by bigbran
When?
Tell me an issue, and I'll bring you the scan.

Also, Thor beat the living HELL out of Juggernaut. Juggernaut was going down in the next punch.

And Juggernaut beat the Hell out of Thor. I don't nessasarily mean in this issue, but in there second fight, Juggernaut could have also won.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And Juggernaut beat the Hell out of Thor. I don't nessasarily mean in this issue, but in there second fight, Juggernaut could have also won.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin

Originally posted by bigbran
And, I'll admit, Juggernaut did beat a WEAKENED Thor.

OK, ya got me. But it still doesn't mean that Juggernaut is totally portrayed wrong.
One thing, from his first appearance in Thor comics?

Same writers, really no chance of them catching up on who Juggernaut is. They couldn't even keep his shield the same color.

Tom DeFalco also helped write the ASM issues where he fought Juggernaut. I believe they also claimed he was a mutant. I will try to find it later.

By the way, Thor was not weakened in that fight. He had a dizzy spell which passed, but afterwards he was perfectly fine.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Same writers, really no chance of them catching up on who Juggernaut is. They couldn't even keep his shield the same color.

Tom DeFalco also helped write the ASM issues where he fought Juggernaut. I believe they also claimed he was a mutant. I will try to find it later.

By the way, Thor was not weakened in that fight. He had a dizzy spell which passed, but afterwards he was perfectly fine.

It passed, right after Juggernaut got a cheap shot on him... right?
Also, I don't remember it passing... maybe after he got revived, but it never said anythign about it passing.
Thor even said he had to gather up his remaining strength.

Originally posted by bigbran
And? Wait, his force feild was only shown like... twice? How can it be wrong?

It passed, right after Juggernaut got a cheap shot on him... right?
Also, I don't remember it passing... maybe after he got revived, but it never said anythign about it passing.
Thor even said he had to gather up his remaining strength.

"The delirium flees my mind...and strength returns to my limbs."

After that Thor summoned a thunderbolt and Juggernaut said, "that tickled". Thor realizing he couldn't harm him and used the Godblast

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
"The delirium flees my mind...and strength returns to my limbs."

After that Thor summoned a thunderbolt and Juggernaut said, "that tickled". Thor realizing he couldn't harm him and used the Godblast

So, Juggernaut beat a weakened Thor.

Last page:
Thor is laying on the ground.

Next comic:
The New Warriors show up.

I'll bust out the whole comic full of scans if I have to.

Originally posted by bigbran
I know... except, that is in the next comic.
So, in the next comic, it has left.

So, Juggernaut beat a weakened Thor.

Last page:
Thor is laying on the ground.

Next comic:
The New Warriors show up.

I'll bust out the whole comic full of scans if I have to.

I didn't word what I meant to say right. I am trying to say Juggernaut took Thor's attacks no problem. Although Juggernaut did smack Thor around alittle before he became ill. But you are right the actual fist fight was handicapped. I didn't quite mean to get into this debate.

Juggernaut did fair just as well against Thor as Thor did to him in there second fight.

But the original argument was that the writers didn't know enough about Juggernaut. Both comics featured his shield and both were written by the same people.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Juggernaut did fair just as well against Thor as Thor did to him in there second fight.

But the original argument was that the writers didn't know enough about Juggernaut. Both comics featured his shield and both were written by the same people.

It was only one mistake. It actually had everything else right though (first fight).

Plus, how can he do his shield wrong? There isn't enough evidence to even tell what it looks like.

Juggernauts durability doesn't derive from his shield.

Originally posted by bigbran
Plus, how can he do his shield wrong? There isn't enough evidence to even tell what it looks like.

Well, its written and drawn by the same people, Ron Frenz and Tom DeFlaco. They could have stayed consistent with that.

The first fight had a see through shield, but it was visible. And their second fight had a flat out pink/red shield that was about 2 feet away from his body. Neither fight was the shield drawn, except when mentioned.

Then you have Spider-man in which his shield was bright yellow. Deflaco also had a hand in this one. These are the only fights his shield has actually been mentioned and shown.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Well, its written and drawn by the same people, Ron Frenz and Tom DeFlaco. They could have stayed consistent with that.

The first fight had a see through shield, but it was visible. And their second fight had a flat out pink/red shield that was about 2 feet away from his body. Neither fight was the shield drawn, except when mentioned.

Then you have Spider-man in which his shield was bright yellow. Deflaco also had a hand in this one. These are the only fights his shield has actually been mentioned and shown.