Sidious takes this. Even as of ROTS he's better with the Force than Yoda. For example, look at the amount of effort it took Yoda to toss a single Senate Pod at Sidious and compare it to the fact that Sidious can send many of them flying up dozens of feet before sending them crashing down with very little effort. Overall they may be equals (I'd actually give it to Yoda in a full on fight) but Sidious takes it in any Force Battle.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious takes this. Even as of ROTS he's better with the Force than Yoda. For example, look at the amount of effort it took Yoda to toss a single Senate Pod at Sidious and compare it to the fact that Sidious can send many of them flying up dozens of feet before sending them crashing down with very little effort. Overall they may be equals (I'd actually give it to Yoda in a full on fight) but Sidious takes it in any Force Battle.
He's NOt better in the force. They are COMPLETE EQUALS as GL states in the ROTS commentary. And you're not understanding the physics of the entire pod throwing scene. Sidious lifted the pods to a certain degree and threw them down. Yoda CAUGHT one at FULL Speed and threw it BACK UP. Don't tell me what Sidious did was more impressive.
Originally posted by kamhalsays the fool who keeps bitching at me to quit saying vader is 95% of ROTS sidious whom ROTJ sidious is much stronger and where as vader is stated to be 80% of rotj sidious.
Sidious since he knows more offensive force powers, other way it would be a stalemate. Also, i think that yoda is like 99% from sidious (well, the true is that he lost so i have to give him a SMALL advantage).
One word to you my friend : Hypocrite
Originally posted by Utrigita
and don't forget the look in Palpatines and Yodas eyes when the lightning where flashing at that point yoda was actually winning but for crying out loud we all knew that Yoda had to lose, but take the scene again rewrite the future and Yoda would win
That's funny. Because I also saw Sidious laughing and Yoda grimacing in pain. 😐
(They're equals. Yoda was unable to nail Sidious with that lightning ball - he only managed to push it directly in between them, and that is when it detonated and blew them both away)
Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Yoda can't fight him. Both are dead.
Eh?
That makes no sense... if Yoda "can't fight him", then only Yoda would be dead. 😉
But, in either case, you're very much wrong. Sidious definately has the advantage in Force combat (though not necessarily "more powerful" - take note), due to his wider variety of assaults and access to offensive techniques.
But Yoda's defense is amazing and, if prepared, he can handle Sidious's lightning (though not without difficulty). Yoda can definately fight Sidious, as I seem to recall him blasting the dark lord across the room and making the normally (over)confident Sidious reconsider a duel.
Originally posted by Gideon
I think Kamikz is insinuating that it's hard to imagine Yoda just killing Sidious flat-out with the Force, considering he has no offensive powers. Which makes sense. Yoda will need stuff to throw at Sidious or he'll have to just Force push him into shit 'til Sidious dies, lol.
This is not true. Yoda utilizes his defense as an offense. EG: Throwing Sidious' lightning back into him.
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
This is not true. Yoda utilizes his defense as an offense. EG: Throwing Sidious' lightning back into him.
You make it sound as if Yoda managed to pull that stunt off all the time. He didn't. Sidious used Force lightning three times during the fight - and Yoda managed to only block it once. The first time, it knocked him unconscious; the second time, it knocked his lightsaber from his hand.
The correct statement is that a prepared Yoda can block Sidious's lightning. But, will Sidious let that happen? We know he fights smarter than Yoda - using underhanded tactics and manipulates the environment to his advantage. As well, for how long? We know that Yoda can't block the lightning forever, and when the output is strong enough, he is shown to be in considerable pain to do so.
Yoda's "utiziling defense as an offense" does not give him greater access to offensive Force powers. That technique is dependant solely on Sidious's own powers.
I'm not saying Yoda will lose. He and Sidious are equals, but Sidious has the advantage.
Originally posted by Gideon
You make it sound as if Yoda managed to pull that stunt off all the time. He didn't. Sidious used Force lightning three times during the fight - and Yoda managed to only block it once. The first time, it knocked him unconscious; the second time, it knocked his lightsaber from his hand.The correct statement is that a prepared Yoda can block Sidious's lightning. But, will Sidious let that happen? We know he fights smarter than Yoda - using underhanded tactics and manipulates the environment to his advantage. As well, for how long? We know that Yoda can't block the lightning forever, and when the output is strong enough, he is shown to be in considerable pain to do so.
Yoda's "utiziling defense as an offense" does not give him greater access to offensive Force powers. That technique is dependant solely on Sidious's own powers.
I'm not saying Yoda will lose. He and Sidious are equals, but Sidious has the advantage.
Not to sound disrespectful Gideon but when I see that scene I correctly as you say see yoda in pain but after that I see sidious in even greater pain from the lightning (look at his face) at the point where the camera zooms in, his head goes back in pain (just my analyse)
Originally posted by Utrigita
Not to sound disrespectful Gideon but when I see that scene I correctly as you say see yoda in pain but after that I see sidious in even greater pain from the lightning (look at his face) at the point where the camera zooms in, his head goes back in pain (just my analyse)
I'd interpret that as "fear", not pain. Considering there's no reason for Sidious to be in pain. Yoda's the one who is grappling with Force lightning barehanded - it makes sense that it's going to cause massive amounts of pain. Sidious is generating the lightning (and this is before the "energy ball" detonates), so there's no reason for him to experience any physical discomfort other than fear (I doubt duking it out with Yoda was high on his "things-to-do" or "things I wanna do before I die" lists).
And you're not being disrespectful. 🙂
Originally posted by Gideon
You make it sound as if Yoda managed to pull that stunt off all the time. He didn't. Sidious used Force lightning three times during the fight - and Yoda managed to only block it once. The first time, it knocked him unconscious; the second time, it knocked his lightsaber from his hand.The correct statement is that a prepared Yoda can block Sidious's lightning. But, will Sidious let that happen? We know he fights smarter than Yoda - using underhanded tactics and manipulates the environment to his advantage. As well, for how long? We know that Yoda can't block the lightning forever, and when the output is strong enough, he is shown to be in considerable pain to do so.
Yoda's "utiziling defense as an offense" does not give him greater access to offensive Force powers. That technique is dependant solely on Sidious's own powers.
I'm not saying Yoda will lose. He and Sidious are equals, but Sidious has the advantage.
Your point? Yoda had the power to throw Sidious violently into his office chair. May I remind you Sidious lost his lightsaber to Yoda as well. Yoda seemed to be growing irritated and threw the Lightning back in his face. Are you insinuating Yoda can only do it once? I find this humorous.
He fights smarter? How so? They stalemated. Yes, Sidious throwing pods downwards towards Yoda was quite a nimble and tactical maneuver, but Sidious seems unable to take what he dishes out. Yoda managed to spin a single pod and throw it back upwards towards Sidious and it had him running like a school girl looking for her glasses.
Sidious also cannot deliver Lightning forever. Even so, Yoda managed to throw it back into Sidious' face (Even if it was at his own expense).
That's an outrageous statement. Sidious doesn't have the advantage just because he has "Offensive powers". Anakin was offensive compared to Obi-Wans defensive tactics. Who burnt, lost two legs and an arm? They cancel each other out which is why they stalemate. A powerful defense can easily step to a powerful offense. Yoda proved this.
Your point? Yoda had the power to throw Sidious violently into his office chair.
It looks like we'll be sitting here all day if you want to go that route. "Yoda had the power to throw Sidious violently into his office chair." You're right, and he did so after he recovered from being knocked unconscious by Sidious in the first place. I would like to point out that Palpatine could have very easily killed Yoda right then and there - but chose to gloat instead. And then I'd also like to point out that Sidious immediately recovered from that.
Not exactly an "awe-inspiring" power, right there, Seraphim. 🙄
May I remind you Sidious lost his lightsaber to Yoda as well. Yoda seemed to be growing irritated and threw the Lightning back in his face. Are you insinuating Yoda can only do it once? I find this humorous.
Sidious lost his lightsaber to Yoda? When was this confirmed, exactly? I don't recall this being shown in the movie or confirmed in the novelization. For all you know, he put it away and opted for a long range assault. Unless you're suggesting that a completely defenseless Sidious managed to evade Yoda for long enough to put that much distance between him and Yoda.
And, no. I'm not saying Yoda can only do it once. I said he was only prepared to do it once. One out of three. That's not good.
He fights smarter? How so? They stalemated. Yes, Sidious throwing pods downwards towards Yoda was quite a nimble and tactical maneuver, but Sidious seems unable to take what he dishes out. Yoda managed to spin a single pod and throw it back upwards towards Sidious and it had him running like a school girl looking for her glasses.
Lmao. Sidious's tactics are vastly superior to Yoda's. He manipulates the environment and puts distance between him and his attacker. According to you, Sidious was disarmed, so that means he managed to evade Yoda from close quarters combat and put a vast amount of distance in between himself and Yoda before Yoda could kill him. He also has no problem using "underhanded" and "surprise" tactics. He disabled Yoda into unconsciousness at the beginning of the fight. He also controlled the fight insofar as the environment, and switched it from the relatively isolated Chancellor's office to the massive Rotunda.
As for Sidious and Yoda in the pods, need I also remind you that Sidious - at that point - wasn't even taking the fight seriously? He spent his entire time just laughing at Yoda, and the pod was more than half way there when he opened his eyes to acknowledge it. Then he spun away.
Sidious also cannot deliver Lightning forever. Even so, Yoda managed to throw it back into Sidious' face (Even if it was at his own expense).
Wrong. Yoda did not "throw the lightning back into Sidious's face". Sidious was blasting Yoda with lightning, who managed to block it with his hands. But Sidious kept forcing Yoda back, who was grimacing in pain. The lightning collected into an energy ball at the tips of Yoda's hands. Yoda finally overcame the pain and pushed the energy ball directly in between them. He did not hit Sidious at all.
Really. If it hit "Sidious in his face", then it would've knocked only Sidious away. 🙄
That's an outrageous statement. Sidious doesn't have the advantage just because he has "Offensive powers". Anakin was offensive compared to Obi-Wans defensive tactics. Who burnt, lost two legs and an arm? They cancel each other out which is why they stalemate. A powerful defense can easily step to a powerful offense. Yoda proved this.
Is this beyond your comprehension? Your example with Anakin is beyond ridiculous. I didn't say that Sidious's Force powers will determine the outcome - I said that he has an advantage because his range of Force powers exceeds Yoda's own. Anakin went completely berserk on Obi-Wan, and didn't use Force powers except for once, and all they did was a Force push, which is not a dark side Force power.
Yoda's Force skills are equal to Sidious's, but Sidious has more power to bring to this fight - and Sidious's tactics are obviously superior. I'm not saying that Sidious will win, because I - too - think that this was a stalemate.
But if you're going to come with these poorly constructed arguments, then we'll just agree to disagree, because you don't know what you're talking about.
I mostly agree with your points Gideon, but about the lightning issue, you're incorrect.
You're claiming that the energy ball just exploded directly in between them, right? Well I for one 100% disagree with that, and the scene backs me up on this. The thing is, at the end of the exchange when the explosion occurs, the lightning moves far too quickly for anyone here to actually claim to see where the ball ends up before it explodes, so we have to analyse exactly what happens just before the explosion, and see what is indicated. You have to do that too Gideon, simply making baseless claims isn't good enough.
Now during the lightning exchange, both Yoda and Sidious go through a transition. Yoda goes from a position of almost being overpowered (at the beginning of the lightning exchange; he was slowly being pushed back, and slowly losing his balance) to a position where he gains some good footing, retains his balance and finally gets some control over the lightning (this is at the point where he puts on his mean face, and happens shortly before the explosion). Sidious goes through the opposite; at the beginning of the exchange, he has enough control over the lightning to be able to move towards Yoda, and slowly begin to overpower him, however once Yoda finally gains control, he starts to be slightly pushed back, and starts losing control. So basically, just before the explosion, which happens far too quickly for us to see where the energy ball ends up, Yoda starts to gain control over the lightning, and Sidious starts losing control over it. Agreed? Well from this point, 3 things could have happened:
1. Yoda could have gotten hit by the energy ball, however this clearly makes no sense, as for that to happen, Yoda would have had to lose control, and we can clearly see Yoda starting to actually finally gain control over the lightning directly before the explosion, so this is wrong.
2. The ball of lightning exploded directly in between them, your option, however this is clearly wrong, as both would have had to lose control at the exact same time for it to happen, yet we see Yoda finally gaining control directly before the explosion, so this is wrong
3. Sidious was hit by the ball of lightning. This makes perfect sense, as we can quite clearly see Yoda finally gaining control over the lightning, and Sidious finally losing control over it, directly before the explosion occurred, and thus can determine that Sidious was finally overpowered, and got hit by the lightning. Yoda simply fell back because of the shock waves generated by the energy ball hitting Sidious.
Actually no, Gideon is right, the lightning does not hit Sidious whatsoever in the struggle. If you look at the picture I've provided you'll notice the lightning ball explodes in between Sidious and Yoda, it does not hit Sidious. What happened here is akin to the force push battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan except on a much larger scale of power. The ball exploded because of the two equal amounts of "pressure" being applied on each side of it, causing a kind of cancellation effect with a huge shock wave that knocked both contestants back. This moment was to show that Yoda and Sidious were indeed equal in terms of force power, but due to Sidious' superior position inside the pod, and Yoda's position on the edge of the pod, coupled with Yoda's much smaller body, caused Yoda to be thrown back further then Sidious, and thus effectively getting TKO'd. However, the main point to realise here was that no one won this force exchange, but no one lost either. The blast was caused from too much pressure being applied to it on each side equally, thus making it explode between them, Yoda however, was again at a disadvantage, and Sidious, again, had superior footing. (making him a better fighter as he takes advantage of whats around him and uses it to his advantage)
Heres the Screen Caps.