Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Even rationality ? 😬
Even rationality.
God can defy logic.
You must understand that absolutely everything was his doing. His creation. From a subatomic particle to all of space and time, past present and future and every single thing in it. Including things like cognition and the way of things.
There never was, is or will be anything above or beyond God, ever. He is as unlimitless as absolutely anything can get.
So yes. Even rationality.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
so SIN is God's doing as well....that renders Free Will non-existant.
Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
You must understand that absolutely everything was his doing. His creation. From a subatomic particle to all of space and time, past present and future and every single thing in it. Including things like cognition and the way of things.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
You must understand that absolutely everything was his doing.
😬
Free will was a creation of his. He doesn't use it for us, though. He's presented it to us. For our own use only. But He did create the idea of free will, did i deny this? The ability to exercise it is within our power. I'm sure our own free will can be used by him, as well, (who wouldn't want that) I guess that's what the term "God's will" can mean out of many meanings, but our will, the one that God created and gave us, for us to keep and utilize wisely, is our own to do with what we wish.
Originally posted by FistOfThe NorthSo, according to you, there is some aspect of us somewhere or at the least some aspect of the environment that does not owe its existence to God, and this thing is responsible for sin? If God created ex nihilo, God created everything, thus our manner of use of our "free will" is determined only by factors God created. If this is so, all variables impacting our use of free will were created by God and thus if they produce sin, it is God's doing. Now, if God did not create ex nihilo, I can accept flaws in the creation, and would agree that you are correct our "free will" is our own, and true.
Free will was a creation of his. He doesn't use it for us, though. He's presented it to us. For our own use only. But He did create the idea of free will, did i deny this? The ability to exercise it is within our power. I'm sure our own free will can be used by him, as well, (who wouldn't want that) I guess that's what the term "God's will" can mean out of many meanings, but our will, the one that God created and gave us, for us to keep and utilize wisely, is our own to do with what we wish.
Originally posted by FistOfThe NorthSatan only means a tempter. It is our own human weaknesses that is really spoken of. It is a play on our own inner being, not some outer spirit/person that does some tempting. It is our duel nature. It is only us.
Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin.
Originally posted by Regret
So, according to you, there is some aspect of us somewhere or at the least some aspect of the environment that does not owe its existence to God, and this thing is responsible for sin? If God created ex nihilo, God created everything, thus our manner of use of our "free will" is determined only by factors God created. If this is so, all variables impacting our use of free will were created by God and thus if they produce sin, it is God's doing. Now, if God did not create ex nihilo, I can accept flaws in the creation, and would agree that you are correct our "free will" is our own, and true.
No. I believe everything owes it's existence to God. Even our own free will. Sin is a choice that comes from of free will that is done via Satans' influence, a creature which God created. And if you create the whole of something, everything that comes out of said whole is of your doing, as well.
There are no flaws in God's creations. However there are flaws created by God's creations.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan only means a tempter. It is our own human weaknesses that is really spoken of. It is a play on our own inner being, not some outer spirit/person that does some tempting. It is our duel nature. It is only us.
No it's not only us. Satan's influence does play a big part in human sin. Satan is the epitome of evil. And to commit sin is to do something evil. Where do you think the influence lies. And don't get it confused with motive. The evil in a human's heart and mind has to have Satanesque ingredients in it in order for it to be evil. Then, along with motive, you have you act of sin, which was caused by both human a Satan's influence. Otherwise you get the opposite of evil or feelings of indifference.
And isn't a tempter a sort of agitator? An instigator? A motivating influence? (a negative one) Couple that with human weakness and I say you've got a hell of a recipe for sin. So it isn't only us, as you say.
Originally posted by FistOfThe NorthThese two lines conflict. God created everything and everything that comes out of it are his doing, but things that come out of everything are everything's fault, not God's.
And if you create the whole of something, everything that comes out of said whole is of your doing, as well.There are no flaws in God's creations. However there are flaws created by God's creations.
Originally posted by Regret
These two lines conflict. God created everything and everything that comes out of it are his doing, but things that come out of everything are everything's fault, not God's.
I don't see the conflict.
God is the creator of everything but the sins that come out of humans are humans' fault. Not Gods'.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I don't see the conflict.God is the creator of everything but the sins that come out of humans are humans' fault. Not Gods'.
And if humans are flawless, then they can never make anything flawed since that would represent an error in their knowledge/design/thought processes, which means that they were flawed.
Something flawless cannot create something flawed unless it does so intentionally.
Originally posted by King Kandy
If Gods creation is Flawless (Like You Said), then humans (Which are his creation) would have to be flawless two.And if humans are flawless, then they can never make anything flawed since that would represent an error in their knowledge/design/thought processes, which means that they were flawed.
Something flawless cannot create something flawed unless it does so intentionally.
Humans were initially flawless. The first humans and our ancestors Adam and Eve were perfect. It just happened that they were powerfully influenced by Satan when he exploited their innocence which is probably the most vulnerable characteristic humans have, that has to be as sensitive as it is in order for it to work.
Originally posted by FistOfThe NorthThat still holds a flaw in Satan, another of God's creations. You are stating that Adam and Eve were perfect and humankind is flawed due to their sin by way of Satan's influence. Satan is also a creation of God, correct? If so, where did the influence come that corrupted the angel? God is responsible for everything in an ex nihilo creation, he is still responsible for sin even with Satan's influence.
Humans were initially flawless. The first humans and our ancestors Adam and Eve were perfect. It just happened that they were powerfully influenced by Satan when he exploited their innocence which is probably the most vulnerable characteristic humans have, that has to be as sensitive as it is in order for it to work.
Originally posted by Regret
That still holds a flaw in Satan, another of God's creations. You are stating that Adam and Eve were perfect and humankind is flawed due to their sin by way of Satan's influence. Satan is also a creation of God, correct? If so, where did the influence come that corrupted the angel? God is responsible for everything in an ex nihilo creation, he is still responsible for sin even with Satan's influence.
You must understand. The story of creation (and the beginning) does not necesarily have to follow WORD for WORD. The story of creation is filled with metaphors and similies that are meant to convey a theme or idea, not necesarily a historical account of the event. I am more inclined to accept Debbiejo's interpretation. God did give us free will. Freedom to choose him or not. There is no flaw in that.