God Spoke the Universe into Existance..

Originally posted by Regret
That still holds a flaw in Satan, another of God's creations. You are stating that Adam and Eve were perfect and humankind is flawed due to their sin by way of Satan's influence. Satan is also a creation of God, correct? If so, where did the influence come that corrupted the angel? God is responsible for everything in an ex nihilo creation, he is still responsible for sin even with Satan's influence.

The influence of evil that came from Satan came from his decision to use his free will unwisely.

Human's weren't the only ones who were given free will as I'm assuming God presented it to his angels, as well.

Satan was that one angel who unwisely used his God given free will in the form of deciding to defy God before paying a hefty price for his insubordination. Satan's misuse of free will corrupted him, the angel, because of him and him only. It's when evil was born.

So even though God created Satan, He's in no way responsible for Satan's sin. God doesn't make choices for us even though He can, but the results of our decisions, whether good or bad, happen by the practice of our God given free will, in which we are in charge of, not God.

Originally posted by AOR
You must understand. The story of creation (and the beginning) does not necesarily have to follow WORD for WORD. The story of creation is filled with metaphors and similies that are meant to convey a theme or idea, not necesarily a historical account of the event. I am more inclined to accept Debbiejo's interpretation. God did give us free will. Freedom to choose him or not. There is no flaw in that.

But to address your statement, how do you know? The Bible does not give statement as to what is and is not metaphor or simile. It is solely personal belief based in either your personal study or your researching of texts others have written on the subject. It may be that the creation account is literal, it may be that it is metaphorical, I do not deny that the account presented in Genesis is not complete enough so as to affirmatively state the nature and method of creation to any absolute other than that God played a role.

From your other post I assume you are Catholic, if this is incorrect you may correct me.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER ONE
I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER
ARTICLE I
"I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH"

Paragraph 5. Heaven and Earth

325 The Apostles' Creed professes that God is "creator of heaven and earth". The Nicene Creed makes it explicit that this profession includes "all that is, seen and unseen".

326 The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: "the earth" is the world of men, while "heaven" or "the heavens" can designate both the firmament and God's own "place" - "our Father in heaven" and consequently the "heaven" too which is eschatological glory. Finally, "heaven" refers to the saints and the "place" of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God.186

327 The profession of faith of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) affirms that God "from the beginning of time made at once (simul) out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is, the angelic and the earthly, and then (deinde) the human creature, who as it were shares in both orders, being composed of spirit and body."187

PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO I. THE CREEDS
CHAPTER ONE I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER
Article 1 "I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH"
Paragraph 4. THE CREATOR
IV. THE MYSTERY OF CREATION

God creates by wisdom and love

295 We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom.141 It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."142 Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."143 God creates "out of nothing"

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance.144 God creates freely "out of nothing":145

If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.146

297 Scripture bears witness to faith in creation "out of nothing" as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:

I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.147

298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them,148 and bodily life to the dead through the Resurrection. God "gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."149 and since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.150

God creates an ordered and good world...

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
The influence of evil that came from Satan came from his decision to use his free will unwisely.

Human's weren't the only ones who were given free will as I'm assuming God presented it to his angels, as well.

Satan was that one angel who unwisely used his God given free will in the form of deciding to defy God before paying a hefty price for his insubordination. Satan's misuse of free will corrupted him, the angel, because of him and him only. It's when evil was born.

So even though God created Satan, He's in no way responsible for Satan's sin. God doesn't make choices for us even though He can, but the results of our decisions, whether good or bad, happen by the practice of our God given free will, in which we are in charge of, not God.

Originally posted by Regret
Ahh, but here I am addressing Fist of the North's beliefs, not some other interpretation or belief.

But to address your statement, how do you know? The Bible does not give statement as to what is and is not metaphor or simile. It is solely personal belief based in either your personal study or your researching of texts others have written on the subject. It may be that the creation account is literal, it may be that it is metaphorical, I do not deny that the account presented in Genesis is not complete enough so as to affirmatively state the nature and method of creation to any absolute other than that God played a role.

From your other post I assume you are Catholic, if this is incorrect you may correct me.

So, we see the Catholic Church has God creating everything ex nihilo, including the Angels, one of whom was Satan. We learn that, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, God created evil intentionally. And thus sin is due to God, he created a world where he knew sin would occur.

First step

To that the bible is inpired by God does not mean that he dictated the words to the writers, who simply recorded what was whispered to them. Nor does it mean that everything in the Bible is factually correct or scientifically valid.

Instead, to say that the sacred Scriptures are inspired means that God ensured they contain all truth that is necessary for our salvation. This is the truth about our relationship to God and all creation and the destiny meant for us, union with God forever. This is religious truth, which is not the same as historical accuracy or scientific explanation.

In inspiring the Bible, God worked through human beings who wrote the sacred Scriptures. They, like us today, were subject to the cultural and intellectual limitations of their own eras; they had many customs and ways of thinking that are not our own, and wrote in languages that most English-speaking people do not understand-Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.

Furthermore, these authors used various literary forms (some of which may seem strange to us) in ways that met the needs of their audiences. The Old Testament includes ancient myths and legends, royal court histories, letters, poems, songs, genealogies, sermons, liturgical instructions, laws, accounts of visions, and stories passed down orally for generations before being written down….

-Written On Our Hearts: The Old Testament Story of God’s Love; pg 9 para:2-5)

Step two

How to Read the account of the Fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents

-Catechism of the Catholic faith

In short, who are we to know the will of God?

Originally posted by AOR
In short, who are we to know the will of God?

God did create everything ex nihilo, given the Catechism quote I presented. This leads to his responsibility for the existence of evil.

Originally posted by Regret
Which is what I stated. We do not know to what extent the Genesis account is literal or metaphorical. It may be entirely literal, it may be entirely metaphorical, it may be somewhere in between.

God did create everything ex nihilo, given the Catechism quote I presented. This leads to his responsibility for the existence of evil.

But God did create everything out of nothing. There was was no universe before, or an earth, or even the simplest atom. Sin is not a creation object, but an idea thereof. God did not "create sin", do recognize God as God you must consider it a fallacy for something wholly good to create something "wholly evil". However man is not God, and therefore not unlimited in what they can or can not do. Considering that man can aire, but God can not is a susceptible foundation for the Fall of Man. Besides, you are trying to understand something that no man on earth has come to a logical conclusion of. To simply say "it's wrong because I do not understand it/can't explain it" is an err in judgement.

Originally posted by Regret
So God intentionally created beings that would sin. He gave them decision making ability and somehow this creation is not his responsibility? If I give a child a gun and he shoots his child friend and the friend dies, is it his fault or mine? It is the same. God, according to you, gave men the ability to make decisions, this ability led to sin.

Not to be brazen but I don't like your analogy.

Both cases would be my responsibility in that I was the one that created the situation. The decision was not mine though. Which means that ultimately, the responsible party, is in theory, the young child murderer. Also that's where innocence kicks in. And since we don't know the child's age nor at what age innocence truly dies, if the child innocently killed his child friend then it could be seen as an accident, free of sin, but if it was done on purpose with (mal)intent then it was purely a sinful act caused by the kid.

Originally posted by AOR
But God did create everything out of nothing. There was was no universe before, or an earth, or even the simplest atom. Sin is not a creation object, but an idea thereof. God did not "create sin", do recognize God as God you must consider it a fallacy for something wholly good to create something "wholly evil". However man is not God, and therefore not unlimited in what they can or can not do. Considering that man can aire, but God can not is a susceptible foundation for the Fall of Man. Besides, you are trying to understand something that no man on earth has come to a logical conclusion of. To simply say "it's wrong because I do not understand it/can't explain it" is an err in judgement.

Stating that anything of God is a "mystery" and unknowable is a cop out and not Biblical, for God "giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not" (James 1:5).

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Not to be brazen but I don't like your analogy.

Both cases would be my responsibility in that I was the one that created the situation. The decision was not mine though. Which means that ultimately, the responsible party, is in theory, the young child murderer. Also that's where innocence kicks in. And since we don't know the child's age nor at what age innocence truly dies, if the child innocently killed his child friend then it could be seen as an accident, free of sin, but if it was done on purpose with (mal)intent then it was purely a sinful act caused by the kid.

You may not like the analogy, but it is the same. The child is not responsible, and it is an accident, but you are the individual that enabled the accident's occurrence.

Originally posted by Regret
I am not trying to understand anything. God created everything. He created the man that can err. He gave man the ability to err, it was a gift, yes. The Catechism states that this was created in this manner so that the world would be "in a state of journeying" He created the ability to sin so that sin would occur, so that the creation could learn and progress to the state of perfection. Sin is possible due to God, it is possible intentionally to provide this "state of journeying". God is thus due to God.

Stating that anything of God is a "mystery" and unknowable is a cop out and not Biblical, for God "giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not" (James 1:5).

Than you argue to no avail. Some one who argues for the sake of arguing will neither heed to a proven point, or consent when they are wrong.

The idea of journeying is the idea that we are not robots who love God because we are programmed. But rather every morning we awaken to a new day with new possibilities to loving God. Possibilities we can pick and choose to do or ignore all together. Hence the idea of Free-will. In an act of omission, man can sin. Not a direct action of sinning but an indirect one of refusing to do good. For example, walking down the side-walk you notice a hatchling that has fallen from its nest. If you step on it you contribute directly to its death (act of commission), but if you ignore it and not help it at all than you contributed indirectly to its death (act of omission). Same for a human to do. He did not “directly” sin, thus not performing an act that is impossible for something perfect to do. But rather in doing what is not totally right indirectly was our first sin. It wasn’t a complete defiance against God as was Satan’s, but rather an indirect act of disobedience.

Due to original sin, or judgement and logic is impaired and thus imperfect. For theologians to state that “God is unknowable” isn’t a cop out, it’s the truth. What you are quoting is a man who has been “enlightened”, or filled with the Holy Spirit (the wisdom of God). And when he is quoted above he is stating two truths:

1). God gave man all knowledge and wisdom that he needed known (for their was still a tree with knowledge of Good and Evil).

2). God can return that knowledge to those who seek it (the Pentecostal Story).

Originally posted by AOR
Than you argue to no avail. Some one who argues for the sake of arguing will neither heed to a proven point, or consent when they are wrong.

Originally posted by AOR
Due to original sin, or judgement and logic is impaired and thus imperfect. For theologians to state that “God is unknowable” isn’t a cop out, it’s the truth. What you are quoting is a man who has been “enlightened”, or filled with the Holy Spirit (the wisdom of God). And when he is quoted above he is stating two truths:

1). God gave man all knowledge and wisdom that he needed known (for their was still a tree with knowledge of Good and Evil).

2). God can return that knowledge to those who seek it (the Pentecostal Story).

*Yawns*

There are mysteries that we don't understand, but Jesus told us that we can do exactly as he did. We can throw mountains into the sea, we can heal people as we see other religions do and not in the name of Jesus. Jesus was of Jewish decent and had to follow after the law, and he did, YET, he taught that anyone could do magnificent things. He didn't say anyone had to become a Jew to do it, if I remember right. He taught the the Jewish leaders were corrupt that's why he was hated so by them..........Paul and the church so twisted his message that it makes me puke. Now because of it the real message was lost an those that have rediscovered it are ridiculed by the institution that twisted it in the first place, the damn whore of Babylon.

Oh, and people should read James other writings not the ones chosen by the holy church of crap.

Originally posted by debbiejo
*Yawns*

There are mysteries that we don't understand, but Jesus told us that we can do exactly as he did. We can throw mountains into the sea, we can heal people as we see other religions do and not in the name of Jesus. Jesus was of Jewish decent and had to follow after the law, and he did, YET, he taught that anyone could do magnificent things. He didn't say anyone had to become a Jew to do it, if I remember right. He taught the the Jewish leaders were corrupt that's why he was hated so by them..........Paul and the church so twisted his message that it makes me puke. Now because of it the real message was lost an those that have rediscovered it are ridiculed by the institution that twisted it in the first place, the damn whore of Babylon.

Oh, and people should read James other writings not the ones chosen by the holy church of crap.

As much as you expect to respect us to show respect to your religion, please show some respect to mine.